Imperial Counts and Counties.

[MThompson016]

I think the Subsector or Sector Moot would be a matter of Ducal preference and local tradition. Each will be different, some will be absent. It is, however, a natural outgrowth of the given noble arrangement that the Dukes will call their subordinates to consult en mass periodically.

The idea that a local Moot has the power to elect a Duke is, on the other hand, ridiculous. The Zhodani work that way, but not the Imperium.

I'll disagree here. It allows for the senior viceroys to understand who has actual political leadership and respect from those who matter. A replacement Duke who has the support of the peerage for his area is going to be more effective, and understand the different factions that play in his demesne.

And the one case mentioned in GT JTAS is when a Duke passed with no named heir available. His son was KIA in the Marines (Aslan, you know), and no direct heir was nominated. As a special occurrence, a nomination of an existing member of the Nobility makes a lot of sense. It was also treated a subject to Imperial veto, but that was noted as unlikely.

And that much power and money in one spot is a lucrative ground for morally flexible free-lancers.

 

[GypsyComet]

And the one case mentioned in GT JTAS is when a Duke passed with no named heir available. His son was KIA in the Marines (Aslan, you know), and no direct heir was nominated. As a special occurrence, a nomination of an existing member of the Nobility makes a lot of sense. It was also treated a subject to Imperial veto, but that was noted as unlikely.

All Imperial authority descends from the Emperor, so such nominations are just that: nominations. If the local traditions and Patents allow it, such a nominee might even have some traction with the other significant symbol of Imperial power in the area, the Navy. Otherwise he's just filing paperwork until the confirmation or a new Imperial appointee arrives. And if an Imperial Audit finds the nominee wanting, attention turns to those who nominated him.

More so than any lesser position, Dukes must be the Emperor's Finest, because they are his eyes and voice. The Navy takes a Duke seriously; everyone else they take under advisement.

(shrug)

Just noting which part of the forum this is in...

 

[aramis]

It is important to remember: Not all subsectors are functionally subsectors for governmental purposes. Two in the marches are not, and are governmentally part of neighboring subsector... and one Subsector "Duke" is a count...

 

[flykiller]

I think I'll steal it.

steal away.

randall: "we didn't mean to steal the map."

god: "what do you mean you didn't mean to steal the map?"

randall: "well, we ..."

god: "of course you didn't steal the map, I _gave_ it to you, you silly man."

(shrug)

Just noting which part of the forum this is in...

(looks up) (shrug) just answering the question ...

I don't think every subsector needs a moot/senate/call-it-what-you-will. That would be way too much democracy for a government that clearly isn't.

don't think of it as democracy. think of it as locally responsive.

mark antony: "I need someone to run the aventine."

 

[aramis]

My read of canon is that the locals elect the subsector duke, but he's only the acting until the Emperor signs off.
Likewise, the sector duke is elected by the local subsector dukes, and is acting until the Emperor approves.

 

[Condottiere]

The Sector Duke would in principle be first amongst equals, his job is to herd cats.

The subsector dukes are responsible for their turfs or bailiwicks, depending on whether it's a protection racket or a cash cow.

The Knights and the baronets tend to be representation for taxation for taxable districts.

If the policy is divide and rule, no noble or noble tile would have a fief larger than a star system, or a parsec, and within that, another nobility class that's assigned a large planetary object and it's immediate satellites.

 

[McPerth]

AFAIK noble wars are quite rare in 3I, though...

You can asume there'se backstabbing and quite quarrels, but they raresly reach the point of full war.

 

[Garnfellow]

I rmeember a MT scenario, on a challenge IIRC, where one noble that had to attend the assembly of Regina was kidnapted, but I don't remember if this assembly is called subsector moot, if the name is what is put in question here.

I'm not sure about its canonicity, though, as it made some references to IRIS, that it's not canonical itself...

Good memory: "No Time to Rest" by Robert N. Sprinkle, in Challenge 50.

Set in 1120, the scenario contains this detail: "In the Regina Subsector, the Subsector Council is a governing body that oversees trade relations between the different worlds and determines how to divide Imperial funds among the various departments."

 

[Garnfellow]

AFAIK noble wars are quite rare in 3I, though...

You can asume there'se backstabbing and quite quarrels, but they raresly reach the point of full war.

The excellent MGT Deneb Sector book depicts a region with frequent noble conflicts, including at least one full-on war. Makes Deneb a distinct and cool sector, with a Dune-like feel.

 

[mike wightman]

CT S:8 Library Data A-M page 7:

Interstellar government begins at the subsector level - on one world designated the subsector
capital.The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected
by higher levels of government. This duke has a free hand in government, and is
subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors. But at the same time, the duke
owes fealty to the higher levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself.

Not voted from below, selected from above.

 

[vegas]

+1 for Mike.

Also bold the "This duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors."

This is not a democracy. There is no check from below. The duke has a free hand.

The top may use lessers for administrivia, they may even be organized into councils/assemblies/whatever, but the bottom ain't electing or managing a duke. IMHO.

 

[McPerth]

Good memory: "No Time to Rest" by Robert N. Sprinkle, in Challenge 20.

Set in 1120, the scenario contain this: "In the Regina Subsector, the Subsector Council is a governing body that oversees trade relations between the different worlds and determines how to divide Imperial funds among the various depariments."

TY for the clarification.

CT S:8 Library Data A-M page 7:

Not voted from below, selected from above.

Fully agreed. See that Noris is not Archduke because the dukes vote him, but due to an Imperial Warrant, and other dukes jsut abide it (though they probably agree in seeing the need of a unified command on the view of the crisis).

Nonetheless, any such high leader depends on subordinates (more so with the communication problems Traveller gives), so the idea of an advisor body, formed by people also entrusted nobility by the Empreor, makes sense, IMHO.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

In the 4th Imperium in 1248, Counts are "a big deal". The full details are in Nobility chapter in pages 122-129 of 1248 Sourcebook 2: Bearers of the Flame. Even if you don't like 1248, the chapter does comparison/contrast between 3rd and 4th Imperium

The 4th occupies only about 1 sector. Everyone was effectively downgraded in scale of control.
Counts rule/represent 2-3 worlds, may directly demand a permanent portion of military assets of all subordinates and very oddly may or may not have to be answerable to a Duke. On reading further, you find that while Dukes can assign title for ranks below them, the Emperor can also. Frontier areas and new acquisitions have to be administered, so guess who grants Counties to hem the power of Dukes?

 

[flykiller]

AFAIK noble wars are quite rare in 3I, though...

of course, any so-called "war" within the imperium would be completely unacceptable and beyond the pale. on the other hand mercenary actions (ahem) and piracy (cough cough) are not rare at all ....

There is no check from below. The duke has a free hand.

in theory and acclamation, sure. in practice vox populi vox dei.

 

[aramis]

of course, any so-called "war" within the imperium would be completely unacceptable and beyond the pale. on the other hand mercenary actions (ahem) and piracy (cough cough) are not rare at all ....



in theory and acclamation, sure. in practice vox populi vox dei.

Canon explicitly allows for war by member states with other member states.

 

[RandyB]

Canon explicitly allows for war by member states with other member states.

I definitely want a reference for this one, because it open up so many fun possibilities.

 

[McPerth]

Canon explicitly allows for war by member states with other member states.

For ground wars, sure, but also for space wars among Imperial fiefs?

As I see Imperial High Nobles, they mostly oversee one system or more, and any open war among them would be moved to space quit soom. Of course, small proxy wars and insurgencies in others' fiefs are probable, but I guess taking them to space as full noble war would son take IN attention...

 

[aramis]

I definitely want a reference for this one, because it open up so many fun possibilities.

Corporations: The Traveller Adventure
Member worlds: Book 4, p. 1

Traveller assumes a remote centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium), possessed of grem industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its sf ar-spanning realm. On the frontiers, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce, Defense of the frontier is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered Imperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces. Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of arms, with Imperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do Imperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force.

There are other references in a few adventures as well, but I'm not digging for them right now.

 

[talos402000]

Thanks for all the responses. It really gave me a few ideas. That being said, it seems to me that the basic building block of a sub-sector is the star system, and there could be over a dozen star systems in a single sub-sector, containing billions of sophonts. There's no way one single man is going to be able to stay on top of all that. He's gonna have to delegate authority. In the Imperium, with it's feudal chain of command, the immediate delegates are the counts, with each count or viscount ruling over a county of 3-6 worlds. They monitor conditions on those worlds, settle in-system (but off-world) disputes, pass along regular status reports to the Duke's court, and act in the executive role for any Imperial Ministries in their area of responsibility. Being high nobles, they may also have other responsibilities in the sub-sector government, such as sitting on a panel of judges in the sector supreme court, legate to a non-imperial world, or working in the various imperial ministries.

As for sub-sector legislative bodies, I think that varies by sub-sector, both in size and power, with some having great power, to some having none. I've never read anything that says they all have one.

 

[GypsyComet]

For ground wars, sure, but also for space wars among Imperial fiefs?

As I see Imperial High Nobles, they mostly oversee one system or more, and any open war among them would be moved to space quit soom. Of course, small proxy wars and insurgencies in others' fiefs are probable, but I guess taking them to space as full noble war would son take IN attention...

The High Nobility risk *everything* if they stoop to open warfare against each other. The Planetary nobility, only a small minority of whom also hold Imperial titles with any teeth, are another matter. The Duke of Regina does not run Regina, and the First Administrator of Regina has no Imperial authority beyond what he can talk Norris into during their weekly Zero Squash match.

The two largest examples of Imperial Nobles at war with each other are the Rebellion and the Civil War. From a particular point of view the Solomani Rim War might also qualify. The next step down would be conflicts like the "trade" wars that kept Deneb tied in knots for decades, and included suborned planetary navies and capital class "yachts". I suspect there were some nasty trade wars, involving what were essentially nobles, during the First Imperium. It is why, IMO, the Vilani are both very talented in this arena, and very cautious about using those talents openly.