General Imperial Government

[Bromo33333]

From my vantage point,

1st Imperium was basically a corporate Bureaucracy, nominally a Imperial dictatorship.
2nd Imperium was basically a Military Dictatorship grafted on top of the 1st Imperial Buraeucracy?

Long Night was Anarchy

3rd Imperium was a loose Feudal Empire

Is there any structure of a large interstellar empire based upon other principles? I know the Regency evolved into a Representative Democracy (Constitutional Monarchy?), but it's a smaller scale.

Wondering people's thoughts on how an interstellar government of a large size would function that wasn't some kind of Feudal or Authoritarian system?

 

[tjoneslo]

Technically the Zhodani Consolate is a representative democracy. A group of elected officials appoint one of their officers to represent the group at the next level of the government. The fact that the lowest level of popular elections only includes a small minority of the population may change your mind about the democracy thing.

The Hive Federation is another, even looser, government. I’m not sure how to classify it.

 

[Bromo33333]

Technically the Zhodani Consolate is a representative democracy. A group of elected officials appoint one of their officers to represent the group at the next level of the government. The fact that the lowest level of popular elections only includes a small minority of the population may change your mind about the democracy thing.

The Hive Federation is another, even looser, government. I’m not sure how to classify it.

I always pegged the Zhodani Consulate to be a meritocratic oligarchy, but I could see it as a Representative Democracy considering that that's not too far off from the way the early US was governed, and the British PM isn't directly elected.

Agree about Hivers. It's not a "0" government, but it can act like one, but they are too capable of concerted efforts for it to be a huan "0"

What I love about Hivers is that they are very alien, but still relatable.

 

[mike wightman]

My views.

The Ziru Sirka was a lot more than a corporate beurocracy.

Each of the three Bureaux that rules their particular slice of empire were more akin to the triumvirate of ancient Rome, with the trappings of the British East India Company grafted on top, not to mention each Bureaux traced its origins back to a particular Vilani caste. And atop the pile was the shadow Emperor - and I can't help but think there is a lot more to that story than we have been told so far.

The Rule of man in my view is closer to the British Raj - foreign invaders placing themselves in positions of power above the natives. Military dictatorship is close, but I think the real situation a bit more complex.

The Third Imperium is more like an Italian American organised crime syndicate...

 

[flykiller]

the lowest level of popular elections only includes a small minority of the population

well the rest of the population gets 3/5 of a vote, doesn't it? ....

The Hive Federation is another, even looser, government. I’m not sure how to classify it.

how would a human classify an alien government?

 

[flykiller]

The Rule of man in my view is closer to the British Raj - foreign invaders placing themselves in positions of power above the natives.

well that only worked because the natives were divided, same reason the british were able to conquer india at all and hold it with, what, a mere 200,000 troops for 200 years? suppose that was why the rom failed, removing the vilani status quo unleashed all the divisions that had existed before and the terran navy was unable to contain it.

 

[flykiller]

]The Third Imperium is more like an Italian American organised crime syndicate...

a mere crime syndicate would not have been able to militarily defeat and hold back an organized entity like the zhodani, or even the vargr. a crime syndicate can deploy a few bus-loads of enforcers, that's all, it could never field a navy or army. clearly the imperium is organized around some central premise with which at least the majority agrees and is willing to defend for centuries.

 

[Bromo33333]

a mere crime syndicate would not have been able to militarily defeat and hold back an organized entity like the zhodani, or even the vargr. a crime syndicate can deploy a few bus-loads of enforcers, that's all, it could never field a navy or army. clearly the imperium is organized around some central premise with which at least the majority agrees and is willing to defend for centuries.

It was an elite feudal society which does superficially resemble a crime family. It did also resemble the Roman Empire - there was an elite governing Patrician Class, and the Plebians that had a large degree of self rule so long as taxes got paid, and they supplied troops for war. Rome tore itself up in the end, as much self inflicted as invaded.

 

[Timerover51]

In my view, given the restriction of no Faster-than-Light communications, no large interstellar empire can function. At best, you might be able to tolerate a 3 months communication lag each way, but even that is pushing it in the event of a major crises on the border. You might be able to manage something like the British Commonwealth, where independent empires are collectively ruled by a titular sovereign and agree to assist each other in an emergency, with no real government over the various groups.

 

[mike wightman]

What was the communication lag time of the British Empire? Or the Mongol Empire for that matter.

 

[mike wightman]

a mere crime syndicate would not have been able to militarily defeat and hold back an organized entity like the zhodani, or even the vargr. a crime syndicate can deploy a few bus-loads of enforcers, that's all, it could never field a navy or army. clearly the imperium is organized around some central premise with which at least the majority agrees and is willing to defend for centuries.

Don't take the analogy too literally - although consider the help the 'mafia' gave to the Allied invasion of Sicily and Italy. I'm talking about the initial establishment of the 3I - which was most definitely a protection racket and offers you can not refuse.

Made men became dukes able to rule their territory - subsector - with the authority of the Emperor (Don).

The mafia is very feudal in nature.

By the time the 3I reaches the Zhodani the 'feudal duty' smokescreen is well and truly in place - although that didn't stop a capo from going after the emperor

 

[flykiller]

given the restriction of no Faster-than-Light communications, no large interstellar empire can function.

sure it could, using a federal structure - cental, regional, local. which seems to be what the imperium uses.

At best, you might be able to tolerate a 3 months communication lag each way, but even that is pushing it in the event of a major crises on the border.

only with a centralized authortarian dictatorial central government. a decentralized government founded on a shared cultural meme easily could do it.

 

[flykiller]

I'm talking about the initial establishment of the 3I - which was most definitely a protection racket and ...

... grew beyond that. a mafia operates within a larger government and society, not as a government or society of its own.

 

[BRJN]

What was the communication lag time of the British Empire?

Before or after steamships became common? Before or after the transoceanic cables were laid?

Admiral Nelson 1805 faced much greater communication lag, and so was on his own, than was Admiral Cradock (very-South America) 1914.

 

[aramis]

What was the communication lag time of the British Empire? Or the Mongol Empire for that matter.

At points, up to a year round trip for the BE,

Decentralization allows the 4 months to the frontier of the Roman and Mongol empires to be stable... within reason... but eventually, that decentralization cracked the Romans. The Mongols essentially abandoned their empire. Not once, but several times... at least twice in what is now China, and once in Europe.

 

[Bromo33333]

sure it could, using a federal structure - cental, regional, local. which seems to be what the imperium uses.



only with a centralized authortarian dictatorial central government. a decentralized government founded on a shared cultural meme easily could do it.

You could argue that a Feudal government is automatically de-centralized, and Autheritarian.

Any system with a high degree of local autonomy could function. But even so, you have numerous examples in history that when communication and supply lines get really long, the system is very delicate when under stress of natural disaster, invasion or insurrection. And civil wars tend to drag out for a long time. Rome was gripped with civil war for 50 years in the 3rd century, for instance, ending with Diocletian which tried to create and "east and West" that were more or less independent entirely to try to avoid future conflict. Didn't work, but the Eastern part did survive for almost 1200 years after his reforms.

 

[Timerover51]

I am not sure that the British Empire is a good example, as they did not really get going into overseas possessions like India and Australia until the mid to late 1700s. Then the East India Company basically took care of India, while Australia had a fairly large military contigent to keep the initial forced immigrants of convicts in line. When the British government actually took control of India after the Indian Mutiny of 1857, steamships were coming on along with telegraph cables. When the Suez Canal was completed in 1870, travel time to India and Australia dropped for the UK dropped drastically.

There really was not an extended time of slow communications for the British Empire.

 

[McPerth]

I've always thought 3I government more as a self-perpetuating oligarchy...

See that nogovernment is purein Traveller definitions, most having a mix-up of various ones.

 

[Timerover51]

While reading a book on the Dutch seaborne empire (at one time the Dutch controlled the Cape of Good Hope, and until 1947, the archipelago that is now Indonesia), I started thinking that a better analogy for a sailing ship empire would be either the Spanish or the Dutch. The Spanish at one time controlled areas of North and South America, a number of islands in the Caribbean, along with a considerable area in Europe and the Philippines.

 

[Epee]

What was the communication lag time of the British Empire? Or the Mongol Empire for that matter.

For Imperial Emergency Urgent messages I would imagine 2 weeks to a month. The Mongols had a "Pony Express" system, as did land-based empires before them. The British Empire covered so many different Tech Levels that you have to consider the speed of sail through steam, cable, and radio communications.

Generally, multiple messengers would be dispatched for critical messages as natural disaster and deliberate interception were always a risk.