Imperial Navy Uniforms

[Easterner9504]

Uniform Form

(NO skirts - think what happens in zero-gee!)


Hmmm...your right.

SKIRTS MANDATORY!!!

Velcro, nylon and such probably as obsolete as papyrus and wool.


Boots full size. In J M Roberts SPACE ANGEL a character waxes on about spacer's foot gear, he chose marine combat boots as tapped for adding mag plates in Z-G and durable longwearing protection as spacers spend alot of time ashore and never know when they might get marooned.

Other than that can't disagree, lots of pockets!

 

[aramis]

I'll admit from the get go that I'm an ex Territorial Army squaddie. Uniforms have three purposes.

1. To present a uniform (hence the name) appearance so as to properly identify the wearer as being in the military.
2. To protect the wearer from hazards in their work (in the form of additional specialised protective clothing and kit)
3. To assist the wearer in performing his/her tasks (i.e. camouflage clothing for field use)

With the above in mind, here are my thoughts.

you missed one: to identify one's training and/or specialty. Common use for uniforms on the carriers. And in Star Trek.

Rank Insignia should be simple, logical, and plain, so as to be very easily understood in high-stress moments.

Eg:

E1 Thin broken (two part) Light Blue bar x 1
E2 Thin Light Blue bar x 1
E3 Thin Light Blue bar x 2
E4 Thick Light Blue Bar x 1
E5 Thick Light Blue Bar x 2
E6 Light Blue Square x 1
E7 Light Blue Square x 2
E8 Light Blue Triangle x 1
E9 Light Blue Triangle x 2
E10 Light Blue Triangle x 3

Officer rank insignia the same as enlisted, but the colour is gold, not light blue.

Trade would be signified by a colour patch below the rank insignia, following, for example (and ease of copying) the US Naval Carrier deck vest colour scheme.

Thoughts?

First off, we know the canonical officer rank insignia
1-3 small silver suns (O1-O3)
1-3 medium gold suns (O4-O6)
1-4 gold stars (O7-O10)

your enlisted ranks will be hard to distinguish at distance between e2/e4 and e3/e5, unless they are on some particular standard sized patch.

No service I've ever read about uses the same insignia in different color for officers and enlisted.

I like the dot-pattern system used by DGP in TD15...
Here's a variation of that theme
E1 Just a square
E2 Square with 1 dot at bottom
E3 Square with 2 dots, on l, R
E4 Square with 3 dots, T, L and R
E5 Square with 4 dots, T,L,R,B
E6 Square with 5 dots, T,L,C,R,B
E7 Square with 6 dots, TL,TR, L,R,LB,RB
E8 Square with 7 dots, TL, TR, L,R,LB, B, RB
E9 Square with 8 dots, TL, T, TR, L, R, ,LB, B, RB
E10 Square with 9 dots, TL, T, TR, L,R,C,LB,B,RB

 

[Ran Targas]

I claim victory for my hypothesis.

LOL! I can see you will fit in fine around here!

 

[Easterner9504]

Ego

I was trained by a master!

 

[Redcap]

you missed one: to identify one's training and/or specialty. Common use for uniforms on the carriers. And in Star Trek.

Good point. With the Army (the British Army, I should say, lol), the cap badge speaks volumes, of course REME, RS, RAOC, RLC, RMP, and so on

First off, we know the canonical officer rank insignia
1-3 small silver suns (O1-O3)
1-3 medium gold suns (O4-O6)
1-4 gold stars (O7-O10)

Er... where did that come from?

your enlisted ranks will be hard to distinguish at distance between e2/e4 and e3/e5, unless they are on some particular standard sized patch.

And the number of (current Army) chevrons at a distance aren't?

No service I've ever read about uses the same insignia in different color for officers and enlisted.

That's not to say it couldn't be done, is it?

I like the dot-pattern system used by DGP in TD15...
Here's a variation of that theme
E1 Just a square
E2 Square with 1 dot at bottom
E3 Square with 2 dots, on l, R
E4 Square with 3 dots, T, L and R
E5 Square with 4 dots, T,L,R,B
E6 Square with 5 dots, T,L,C,R,B
E7 Square with 6 dots, TL,TR, L,R,LB,RB
E8 Square with 7 dots, TL, TR, L,R,LB, B, RB
E9 Square with 8 dots, TL, T, TR, L, R, ,LB, B, RB
E10 Square with 9 dots, TL, T, TR, L,R,C,LB,B,RB

I can't find that notation in TD15, and I've got all of them from TD3 onwards. you sure it was number 15? What page was it on?

In any event, whatever the rank identification system in use, it should and indeed must be easy to ID who's who for ease of C2 (Command & Control)

 

[Andrew Boulton]

It's TD14 p43-44.

 

[Redcap]

Thanks, Andrew I didn't fancy searching through every copy I have here

I note that the article relates to Imperial Marines, rather then the Imperial Navy; Navies tends to use rank insignia (certainly the Royal navy does over here!) that completely confuse the average squaddie (soldier) who doesn't know if the amount of braid in the rank logo is an indication of seniority, bragging, or pure bloody-mindedness on the part of the Navy to confound all outside in determining who may be who in rank order!

So, with this in mind, and given my comments on simplicity above, yes, it's an interesting system, but I'm not at all sure the IN would go for it: There's always a certain amount of elitism inter-arm over there, and you can hear the talk in the wardroom...

"I say, Chalmers, do we REALLY have to get the erks to wear those horrid Marine-like rank badges? They're so plain and simple, ANYONE could understand them!" :devil:

 

[aramis]

Officer ranks are in MT somewhere. Might be just TD 14, but I've seen it in later sources, too. Just can't remember where.

Redcap: wrong. Most naval systems use the same officer insignia as their land counterparts. Most also use the same enlisted grade insignia.

The US and UK are the notable exceptions. Note that the US uses the same officer insignia on collars for all services; the USN, USCG, and USAF have all used the same cuff stripes, as does NOAA and the PHS.

 

[Redcap]

Wrong? Not at all. Please check your incorrect assumptions at the door, Aramis.

There are MANY navies out there that use the sleeve ring and hoop system for their Officers, and it's not just the RN and USN.

Three right off the bat, EXCLUDING the RN and USN, would be:
Royal Norwegian Navy,
Royal Netherlands Navy,
Russian Federation Navy,
and a heck of a load more use the system. If you don't want to follow these links I've provided for proof, just google them instead, if you doubt me.

I didn't check their enlisted insignia, but it's normal, so I was informed a few years back by my late Uncle, who left the RN as an OR-6 Petty Officer in the Radio/Radar specialisation, to have completely different rank insignia in each nations' "Senior Service", purely for compatibility with other navies when they meet. Made sense to me, anyhow.

In any case, this is all getting away from the topic at hand: Simplified rank insignia for ease of recognition on an Imperial Navy Uniform. Given all that's gone on before in this thread, I think I've said my piece eloquently enough, so I'll take a step back and allow someone else to chime in

 

[aramis]

Many land and air forces use it as well. RCAF, for example.

The USN uses it in addition to the unified insignia; all US military personell are suposed to be trained on BOTH systems; my SMRT from basic in 1987 has a table with USN/USCG stripes... My 1983 Blujacket's Manual has all grades and rank insignia for all US Forces. Navy and CG Unified insignia used on collars, raincoats, and battledress uniforms; Army & AF uses on all uniforms. Navy & CG Cuff stripes on Dress and mess uniforms, service uniform shoulder boards, and some office uniforms. USPHS uses navy uniforms and officer ranks.

Canada: Cuff stripes and/or matching shoulder strap slip-covers with stripes for all services officer ranks.
Portugul: stripes in variety of places by uniform, but same pattern in 3 services for all worn locations.
Romania: identical across 3 services. (Essentially soviet pattern, but stripes across boards replace stars)
Algeria, Angola: unified insignia (Army, AF, and Naval services)

Belarus: identical Army and AF insigia (and customs, too), no navy.
China: unified insignia for Army, AF, Navy; very close variant for Customs, Police, and Armed police; all grades. Military matches soviet system.
Cuba: unified across 4 services (Army, Navy, AF, Police)
France: unified across 6 services (Army, Navy, AF, CG, National Police, National Gendarmerie (is this the same as the Nat. Police?), and FFL)

Germany: Army & AF use one officer system, navy another; all three use same enlisted insignia!
Nederlands: uses rings on cuff for Airforces as well in same pattern as navy, different titles. Also, their senior service is the Army, which hs distinctive rank insignia.
NZ: same stripes for Navy and Air; Army differs (matching UK Royal Army)
Aus: Navy and Air Force same pattern; Army differs (matching UK Royal Army)

Russians use shoulder boards with joint services insignia; the cuff stripes are not required on the duty uniforms; all shoulder marks are joint services. The soviet era, they also used the same shoulder loop stripes as all other soviet forces for other ranks; they have simply turned them into chevrons now from simple stripes across.

Please check YOUR SOURCES... they don't all say what you think they do. Specifically the Russian Navy one... BTW, the Kremlin Website has the uniform regs online. (If you can read Russian, at least.)

http://www.defence.gov.au/badges_of_rank.cfm
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/corporate/badges-of-rank/default.htm
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/about/Insignia/index_e.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_Navies_Officers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_Armies_Officers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_Air_Forces_Officers
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html
http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php

It is more common for one service to be out of line, and often, it's the army, not the navy. If there is a marine service, it might be either.

A few European countries being the exception, not the rule. I can go on. I won't.

The last century has seen most nations centralize on a single rank system. Heck, Alaska's police forces use the same insignia as the US unified insignia; the dress uniforms of some ALSO use the Navy style cuff stripes. Quite a number of law enforcement agencies thrughout the US also use the same unified rank insignia. As does the CAP, and several uniformed services in the Fed civil service.

 

[aramis]

In re officer/enlisted using same insignia with difference of color

That's not to say it couldn't be done, is it?

There is a reason it doesn't: one needs to be able to tell quickly the toffs and bosses.

The cubans come the closest; they have chevrons, point up, for NCO's, on the sleeves. They have different color and proportioned chevrons, point down, on the shoulder strap, for some officer grades. Different spot, color, shape overall, and orientation.

 

[rancke]

The last century has seen most nations centralize on a single rank system. Heck, Alaska's police forces use the same insignia as the US unified insignia; the dress uniforms of some ALSO use the Navy style cuff stripes.

And let's not forget that the Third Imperium inherits traditions from the Terran Confederation through its claim to be the successor to the the RoM and through the Sylean Federation (which in turn inherits from the RoM too). Anywhere along the line the rank insignia may have been changed, of course. But there would be nothing strange about the ring system having been passed down to one or more of the Imperial services (Not all, as we know the Marines don't use it).


Hans

 

[aramis]

And we know the starbursts are the "JIS" ranks (Joint Imperial Services), so like the soviet model, if used, they are probably used in addition to JIS ranks, not exclusively in place of.

Given the NATO propensity for 1-3 small stars, 1-3 large stars and a something underneath, and then a different something and 1-(3,4 or 5) different stars, I suspect the JIS is derived from the NATO predominant pattern. Note that the Soviet model used 1-4, 1-(3,4), and 1-(4 or 5), plus 1-3 for warrants, and special isignias for Marshals.

In fact, it's the most common officer rank theme in the more than 100 systems I've read about. The thin, thick, and really thick motif is also quite common, but not quite as universal.

Enlisted rank isignia vary widely; there are about a dozen major systems. Many countries don't have unified enlisted insignia. Most customize off of the dozen or so major systems.

Most countries have 2-3 naming systems for officer ranks; organized by service. Some have a dozen, often all using the same insignia with service distinctions. The UK, for example, uses the same basic insignia system for Army, Marine, and subsets for Police, Fire, Prisons; a different insignia system for Navy, Airforce, and Customs; and Surrey has distinctive police insignia; Each has its own rank titles. The Transport police use insignia like army sergeant for Inspector, and army lieutenant for superintendant; several other police agencies use ieutenant for Inspector, and captain for superintendent; surrey doesn't have superintendant; Scotland uses Lieutenant for inspector, captain for chief inspector, and major for superintendent...

Only a handful of countries have more than 2 military rank insignia systems; many have several national paramilitary rank insignia systems for various civil service agencies; usually customs, law enforcement, and fire; sometimes other types of agency as well.

 

[BraselC5048]

IMTU, navy uniforms look pretty much like this:

The color is way off, though, but the full sized version has the color right.
It's here: http://www.TravellerRPG.com/CotI/Gallery/images/10317/1_captain_2-28_done_jpg.jpg
This is a Captain's uniform. I haven't decided whether enlisted uniforms are blue, white, or a mix of white and blue.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's an example of how art in RPGs can fire the imagination (and how bad art can stir a gamer away from a game, too): Ever since my Traveller's Digest subscription was converted to Challenge, I've always liked the cover of Challenge #33.

This isn't a big pic, but it's the only one I could find:

They're looking at a holotank. The male officer is in midnight blue with gold piping. Looks like a duty uniform. The chick is in in green. I always figured her to be a marine pilot.

Since I've seen these images, these are the example I use for uniforms IMCTU.

 

[Agemegos]

No service I've ever read about uses the same insignia in different color for officers and enlisted.

However, the British Army and Royal Marines use the same insignia (a crown) in a different place for a major (on a shoulder strap) and a warrant officer 2nd class (lower sleeve or wristlet).

Some people thought this might give rise to confusion when all rank insignia on combat uniforms were moved to the middle of the chest. But it was fine, of course.

Come on troops, you can easily tell the difference. Rodneys look lost, Sgt Maj's look like they own the place, even if they are visiting. And their elbows are at least 12" away from their sides pointing outwards when they walk.

Surely the general demenour of the Sgt Major will in fact be the deciding factor, as Majors (unless an ex RSM) will look like a sack of frogs bungeed up in the middle.

Besides, I am suprised you can't spot a major - they are the ones with the cigarette holder, monocle, cravat, barbour jacket and labrador

 

[Gray Lensman]

try this

Challenge Magazine #33 Cover
(for the life of me I cannot get images to post in threads)

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1073

Anyway, I didn't vote becasue my answer is not there, Black for command works for me as well as green for marines, blue for scouts, white for medical, gray for ratings, ect, ect.

 

[aramis]

We don't agree because TPTB has not established canonical Imperial uniforms. Therefore, individual artists have been free to (and/or forced to) invent their own versions over the past 30 years, resulting in a hodge-podge of different uniforms. DGP did try, at least for marines, but their effort was subsequently ignored.


Hans

DGP's Traveller's Digest #15 established the IMC uniform, and WBH established the IISS gray TL15 Tailored Vacc Suit.

These were from the same guys who collated MT. And we see their views on the front covers of the GDW published books, especially the Ref's Companion, showing a Type S and the same uniforms as mentioned in WBH.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

DGP's Traveller's Digest #15 established the IMC uniform, and WBH established the IISS gray TL15 Tailored Vacc Suit.

These were from the same guys who collated MT. And we see their views on the front covers of the GDW published books, especially the Ref's Companion, showing a Type S and the same uniforms as mentioned in WBH.

Where is grey mentioned? It's blue in the pics.

 

[rancke]

...TPTB has not established canonical Imperial uniforms. Therefore, individual artists have been free to (and/or forced to) invent their own versions over the past 30 years, resulting in a hodge-podge of different uniforms. DGP did try, at least for marines, but their effort was subsequently ignored.

DGP's Traveller's Digest #15 established the IMC uniform, and WBH established the IISS gray TL15 Tailored Vacc Suit.

These were from the same guys who collated MT. And we see their views on the front covers of the GDW published books, especially the Ref's Companion, showing a Type S and the same uniforms as mentioned in WBH.

But did they establish any of that as in "Ever since then, Traveller publishers have furnished all their artists with specifics about the uniforms and required them to use them for their illustrations"? No, they did not. AFAIK there still are no canonical Imperial uniforms -- not even Imperial Marine uniforms.


Hans