IMTU - Credit, Revenue, the Navy, and other stuff [LONG]

[scrane]

Some background: I am recently getting interested in CT again after years away. I basically own Books 1-3 and Striker, and want to keep things pretty simple. I don't know much about the OFU in any of the versions (CT,MT,TNE,T4,GT or T20) and I'm not terribly interested in it. I wanted to share a few thoughts I've been having as I develop MTU, and invite anyone to comment or share their own ideas.

0) Star systems. I've always been interested in world-building, so I will strive to make my systems realistic. Habitable (to Humans without extensive protection) worlds around F5 to M0 stars only. O, B, A and early F are too young for planets to accrete, or for multicellular life to evolve on. M3+, any planets in the HZ are tidally locked to the star (still possibly habitable given the right atmosphere, but not too likely). Most stars are M's, so systems with populations of any size may be few and far between, or clustered (a bunch of K or G stars of similar age and size form out of the same nebula, any or all could be candidates for habitable worlds.) My point is: No more Size 7, Atm 6 worlds orbiting A5 stars with Pop A and TL 7. Oh, and a class B starport.

1) The Imperium. I like the idea of the Third Imperium. I picture it as being fairly large, but probably not nearly as big in the OTU. A core of long-established, high-pop, high-tech worlds with extensive trade and communications routes, surrounded by regions (roughly concentric) of younger colonies, and ultimately an Imperial Fringe of recently colonized or contacted worlds that are in various stages of integration with the Imperium. There will be pockets of older colonies, some that may have regressed to low tech, etc. (the usual mix of interesting civilizations.) Systems are largely responsible for their own affairs, but it is the Imperium's job to maintain the space lanes of trade and commerce. Starports (especially A and B) are extraterritorial, or may even be directly governed by the Imperium. The farther from Core you go, the less Imperial control exists. This brings me to...

2)Revenue. What keeps the Imperium going? Member systems owe taxes to the Imperium for it's role in fostering and protecting interstellar trade and communications. BIG QUESTION: How does credit work in an Imperium where travel times are so long, and instantaneous communication is impossible? Where local booms or busts could ravish an economy and ruin a person's credit locally, but news of the event could take months to reach another world where his credit is still good? With a fast enough ship, he could get there ahead of the news and pull out money that he no longer has. Relativistic finance? How closely does this parallel 16-17th century Earth? (I plan on reading Neil Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, which supposedly deals with monetary issues of that time period in the second, recently-released book.)

My answer is to assume that credit only exists reliably in the Core, where communication between the worlds is so regular and reliable that finacial markets can exist. On the fringe, you need trade goods. The currency on one world, even Imperial credits, could be worthless two parsecs away. Travellers better have a few tons of molybdynum in their holds if they want to buy fuel on Rigel 6.

One important task of the Imperium, as new worlds are admitted, is to try to integrate them into the Imperial financial system. Sorry, after 365-1105, your Marks need to be traded in for Imperios, at a ratio of 10:1. Interstellar "armored cars" need to transfer specie to the colonies to fuel their economies, and branches of the Imperial Reserve Bank need to open up to regulate the flow of credits in new territories.

3) The Imperial Navy. The workhorse of the Imperium, particularly on the Fringe. Piracy patrol, showing the flag, monitoring freedom of access to space lanes, escorting revenue agents heading to or from the Core, and hundreds of other tasks are handed to the Navy. Sure, the Scouts survey new worlds and run the Xboat system, but it's a very small service and the Navy does everything else. 200-1000 dT Patrol ships of every variety would be relatively common sights in the Fringe, gathering intelligence (interservice rivalry prevents the Scouts from directly sharing with the Navy) and handling routine emergencies with a great deal of autonomy. A newly-commisioned Navy Lt. might be asked to act with great initiative in command of a 400 dT corvette in the rough-and-tumble Bokhara Reaches.

My campaign idea (similar to a recent topic in this forum) is to center on the patrols of a small Navy vessel and it's crew on the Imperial fringe. PT109 in the 43rd century.

To bring this rant to a close, I guess I love Traveller for the atmosphere (and early 80's nostalgia), but I find it's background assumptions a bit haphazard. I'm trying to rationalize the bakground a bit, if that's possible with a Sci Fi RPG. And I'm dying to play space battles with Harpoon (modern naval miniatures game) where energy weapons are only good for point defense, and the real fighting is with long range, multi-warhead nukes and tons of decoys, ecm and chaff!!!

Thanks for reading, or not, as the case may be

Scott

 

[RainOfSteel]

0)The World Building systems done for the various versions exist to crank out "something" in a widely acceptable format, that remains mostly compatible with the original material from the first three books. At the time they were done, they were actually pretty bleeding edge stuff for the RPG gaming world, incorporating (as best they could) scientific knowledge about temperature of stars, albedo of planets, etc. They weren't, of course, perfect, they couldn't be, or it would have taken a supercomputer to produce the results.

I would be entirely happy to see your variant system, with complete details. It's likely a lot of other people here would be happy to see it, too. Whether everyone will adopt it and use it over the primary material, that's harder to say. The Galactic software, for instance, uses a completely different system for generating starsystem layouts, and a lot of people use that, so getting your system into use isn't beyond the pale.

1) Nobody knows for sure what keeps the Imperium going. I presume to use a system largely stolen (and modified somewhat) from Richard Aiken (over on the TML), it goes like this:

Imperial Taxation
Imperial tax collection is conducted by the Imperial Ministry of the Treasury. There is an official process that assesses the Gross World Product for each Member World. Tax assessors working on each world (technically members of the MoT Subsector Offices) cooperate with the Office of the Margrave or Baron and their official contacts with the world's government(s).
The tax rate is 2% of that GWP each year, and 4% during any time of General War. This amount is called the Member World Contribution (MWC).
Of the MWC, 66% is assigned to the Subsector as the Member World Subsector Contribution (MWSuC), 33% is assigned to the Noble's World Budget (NWB), and 1% is assigned as the World Level Noble Stipend (WLNS) to the noble (Margrave or Baron) of the world.
The sum of all MWSuCs from all Worlds in the Subsector equals the Subsector Total Collection (SuTC). The SuTC is divided into three parts. 66% of the SuTC is assigned to the Sector Contribution (SC), 33% is assigned as the Count's Subsector Budget (CSuB), and 1% is the Subsector Level Noble Stipend (SuLNS).
The sum of all SCs from all Subsectors in the Sector equals the Sector Total Collection (STC). The STC is divided into three parts. 65.5% of the STC is assigned to the Imperial Contribution (IC), 33% is assigned as the Duke’s Sector Budget (DSB), 0.5% is assigned as the Domain Level Noble Stipend (DLNS), and 1% is the Sector Level Noble Stipend (SLNS).
The sum of all ICs from all Sectors in the Imperium equals the Imperial Annual Budget. In practice, though, most spending done with these funds is decided far in advance. Those Imperial funds that are to be spent locally, remain at the Sector level for those purposes decided upon earlier.
One advantage of these Imperial level funds is that wealth generated by internal Sectors that require less military spending for defense, and less infrastructure spending because of existing extensive development, can be applied to poorer frontier Sectors, although this creates its own level of political wrangling at the Imperial Court.
Sectors that are toe to toe with major enemies (like the Spinward Marches, for example), receive far more military spending than the wealth they generate would indicate.
The NWB, CSuB, and the DSB funds are all at the disposal of the noble in charge to fund various governmental actions at their level of Imperial Government District. It is considered a serious abuse of power to spend these funds on personal matters, as the noble’s stipend is intended to cover that need. There is a fine dividing line between personal and governmental spending, though most nobles manage not to cross it.
The higher tax rate for General War may be in effect at the Sector, Domain, or Imperial levels, and may be declared by the Ruling Noble of that level of Imperial Government District.

I use this for general background decisions, to know how wealthy this or that Ruling Noble is, etc.

Other people make other assumptions about taxation and wealth generation.

As many have stated, Traveller is a game of Adventure in the Far Future, not Accounting in the Far Future, and some largely ignore the entire subject, concentrating on adventuring for their PCs. (I'm a milieu designer freak, though, and spend a lot of time on it.)

As for how credit works, that's a subject that's produced many long threads both here and on the TML, with many different proposed solutions based on many different sets of assumptions.


2) Quite frankly, I always thought missiles should have much greater range than the various game versions give them. But then, this isn't a serious problem in comparison to some of the other bugs that exist in some of the combat systems.

 

[Drakon]

As many have stated, Traveller is a game of Adventure in the Far Future, not Accounting in the Far Future,

I loved this line. For some reason it reminded me of a space going version of the Crimson Permenent Assurance.

 

[mike wightman]

Hello Scott.
Go back in time to the first few Adventures and you find this piece of library data:

Capital(Capital/Core 0508-A586A98-F): Central world of the Imperium and seat of government since its founding. Situated in the center of the Imperium, Capital's astrographic location has proven of prime importance, as it controls the only gap in the Rifts for thousands of parsecs. Besides being a communications hub, Capital is a cultural and educational center.

Now that conjures up a totally different image of the Imperium to what it turned into, IMHO. Add the small ship paridigm that prevailed in the early days and the setting sound much like what you are proposing. I like it

I like the idea of using Harpoon for ship to ship combat. Note to self, find a new copy somewhere.

Please keep us informed how the campaign goes, and welcome aboard. That was a good first post

 

[Straybow]

A local bank would extend credit only for capital goods in the local system. Very few banks would extend credit for a starship without local capital for collateral.

Banking would require a system of markers and exchanges not dependent on transfer of printed monies or coinage. Trading leagues have used such systems here on Earth; the Jews of England used the Jewish trade banking system to transfer payment to the Austrians who held Richard hostage.

Such a system would have member banks on most worlds, typically only one or two very large banks willing to take on the communication costs involved. A parallel system of open and private communication would ensure security of transfers.

If you had accounts on worlds X and Y and wanted to transfer 400MCr for a ship to world Y, your bank would first send an open (X-boat or whatever equivalent communication) message with a serial number for the transfer. You or a courier would be given (moments before you board a vessel for the trip) a sealed document containing the public serial number, a private serial number, and coded information about the transfer. Whether you travel from X to Y or vv would not matter. Your transfer would reside in an escrow account until validated by a courier going the other way.

A bank courier would take regular messages between member banks, containing duplicate information. A large number of dummy transactions would also be issued day to day to make snooping out valid transactions difficult.

That is the minimum requirement for secure interplanetary banking. Large shipping corporations would also run their own systems to handle funds for salaries, fueling and maintenance wherever their ships go. Trustworthy former employees might be able to take advantage of private systems. For a fee, of course!

Naturally, TAS has a banking connection which members can count on when far from home. At the least, modest transfers might be expedited between worlds that don't normally have banking relations.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Drakon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As many have stated, Traveller is a game of Adventure in the Far Future, not Accounting in the Far Future,

I loved this line. For some reason it reminded me of a space going version of the Crimson Permenent Assurance. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but also don't forget that some adventurers have members of the Bernard Daley Insurance Society following them around . . .

 

[kafka47]

There is also the whole line of adventures that could be lumped under RepoMan, both in shady dealers and the criminal underworld. And the film with the same name that dealt with a highly enterpeneural repo man.

Figuring out the trade data and building realistic worlds has been a mainstay of Traveller since the very beginning. But, I too, have tended to emphasize adventure over commerce. The fact made Traveller unique is the synergy between the two. While things like SJG Merchant book gives me nightmares of a wholly commercial game, it gives me lots of adventure ideas that I am glad that someone else took the time to do the accounting.

Having an Imperium, like Scrane envisioned it, takes me back to my early Traveller youth of the mid-1980s, before MT changed the landscape and vocabulary of Traveller. Sometimes, I long for those days but I think I still prefer the Fast & Furious worlds that came afterward (especially, MT). Well...it is a big universe out there and both visions of Traveller can easily be incorporated into OTU.

In short, welcome back Scrane, you will find us on the boards a cranky lot but if you draw inspiration from the CT part, your Traveller campaigns will be fruitful and beautiful.

 

[aramis]

Credit, as in bank loans, is a localized phenomena... unless your TU has centralized banks. Anything based on banking off-world is based upon round trip to localized data collections. Hence, a bank loan from a bank with whom you have positive credit score might be willing to make a loan to you out where you happen to be, but expect 4x the lag for the loan approval process... and the requisite assests need be fairly traceable (starships) or local and relatively immobile, or backed by local-to-the-bank assets.

Credit, as in electronic transactions, is also a local thing... but with some reciprocity.

For example, IMTU, the Bank of Regina does buisiness throughout the subsector on a routine basis. So your BoR MasterCharge MAY be honored throughout the subsector... however, you either need to inform the local branch of your destination before you leave, or use the "Presumed Fraction" of the limit encoded on-card, or wait two weeks for the authorization. (I've had players do all three.) Essentially, known travel involves transfer of your account to the other end via XMail... and so it becomes available there when you both you and the file are checked in with the local branch. ("On Wypoc, Vimail: BoR-Auth to activate your card locally") If you check in locally, and you didn't transfer, a presumed fraction of your limit is used instead, until they can verify the actual limit and available credit. Note also, that they send daily data dumps with available ballance changes each way, and if your card shows activity in two systems at once, every recieving branch will shut it off....

As for the imperial currency called the Credit: the "Imperium" establishes a set rate of services on a massively huge schedule. It issues credits for these services at this rate. It accepts tax payment ONLY in credits. if you don't do enough business locally in credits, they blockade you until you accept credits at the listed rates OR LESS. Kind of like the old Maximum Price Regulations during WWII: You could charge whatever you wanted so long as you didn't exceed the government's listed maximum.
The local world could even sell services at Imperial Rates and buy them at some lower local rate, and pocket the difference; the "Imperium" doesn't care, so long as taxes are paid in credits, and credits are spent at or below schedule rates.

And yes, welcome back! Me, I'm an MT fan... but started on CT...

 

[Straybow]

Heh, heh! No, couldn't build a Navy big enough.

Scratch that, couldn't build an Imperial Treasury service big enough to control prices on 11,000 planets.

If you could, it would end up with floating local currencies and Cr used only in Imperial starports. The constant-value Cr is a game mechanism. Activate disbelief suspension module X-9 here.

 

[scrane]

Thanks to all of you, first for the welcome, and especially for your ideas.

My own goal is just to build as coherent a back story as possible for MTU, not to make a game out of banking and finance. Similarly, my ideas for world-building are more to make worlds that feel right to ME, rather than expect anyone else to agree. I like the level of detail that Aramis has in his banking scheme...it gives some plot and adventure hooks that are a bit different from the more usual merc, merchant, hunting plotlines.

I also own some of the MT books, and used to have a few T4 books too. I just decided to go back to CT because...well, because.

Thanks again.
Scott

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Straybow:
Heh, heh! No, couldn't build a Navy big enough.

Scratch that, couldn't build an Imperial Treasury service big enough to control prices on 11,000 planets.

Thet's the thing... canon says they DON'T have a standard local currency... hasn't since the early 80's, or before... the CrImp is the Imperial and Interstellar currency, NOT the daily use currency for most worlds.

But, if you can go to the locals with "hard" credits (CrImp), the local "soft", which isn't valued come tax time looks to get serious deflation of the local... think of it like US$ in border towns of mexico... if you pay in pesos, they drive a hard bargain; if you pay in US$, the conversion is well better in terms of US$ to goods than actually converting. Now, rather than a merchant, coopt the government into being desirous of these credits...

next stage is that you make certain you are paying more than you expect back in revenue, but not much more... as the CrImps circulate the surplus is highly valued... as you know there is a maximum price. Yeah, you CAN find it cheaper. yeah, you can find it more expensive, but not for Imp Agencies... and agency rates are eextended (by edict) to all employees... Oh, and you make certain all military guys carry nothing but CrImps... you pay cash CrImps, you ban local currencies in barracks (with official conversions at the base gate for no fee and no net gain/loss...) and for on-base activities.

And you authorize local nobles to enforce with huscarles any violations of the Agency Pricing maxima... NWEP them... even TWEP them.


Nothing worse than the local ImpNob sending a few troopers to wave off the base customers for "Known Price Gouger - Off-limits". a few examples will usually make the point. (A local bar was noted for massive decreases in revenue when the navy would pull into port: there were always two SP draftees and an MA waving off military, obvious government employee or former employee (VFW, AmVets, Lapel medals, DOD/CivSvc 20-year pin,etc)... so the normal crowd avoids the hassle of actual ID checks to keep the SP happy.... Then again, there is a reason for it... even the local police seldom go in that bar.

 

[robject]

Update! A PDF of the Core sector conforming to this early view of the Imperium is at http://home.comcast.net/~downport/perl/Capital.pdf .

My opinion is that, in this TU, the "Great Rift" arcs down from Vland, swallowing up much of Gushemege and splitting Dagudashaag in half, and meets the rift bordering "Margaret's Domain" which starts up here in Core, runs down through Delphi, Old Expanses, and Hinterworlds/Spica and to trailing/coreward for a 20+ sectors.

I suppose most of the canon data would be ignored completely, and the Imperium itself would be small in comparison to the one we're used to.

How small would it be? Would it claim all of the stars in several (or a few) sectors? Or would it claim a scattered patchwork of subsectors, dense in the Core but more sparse as it radiates out?

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Hello Scott.
Go back in time to the first few Adventures and you find this piece of library data:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Capital(Capital/Core 0508-A586A98-F): Central world of the Imperium and seat of government since its founding. Situated in the center of the Imperium, Capital's astrographic location has proven of prime importance, as it controls the only gap in the Rifts for thousands of parsecs. Besides being a communications hub, Capital is a cultural and educational center.

Now that conjures up a totally different image of the Imperium to what it turned into, IMHO. Add the small ship paridigm that prevailed in the early days and the setting sound much like what you are proposing. I like it

</font>[/QUOTE]What an interesting Alternate Imperium that would be! I wonder what its starchart looks like? I wonder how wide that gap in the rifts is? And how wide are the rifts themselves?

Does that library supplement have any alien races or other human races mentioned (Vilani, Droyne)?

 

[mike wightman]

Robject.

Thank you for that link.

 

[mike wightman]

The library data is in Adventure 2: Research Station Gamma, and Adventure 3: Twilight's Peak.

In A2 all of the major races are mentioned in the entry for major races (but the K'kree are called Centaurs and the Hivers are Hive), while the minor races entry mentions such human derived species like the Suerrat and the Geonee.

 

[robject]

Thanks for the info.

Please note that that sector image is messed up in many ways: first, it's Rebellion-era data; second, the world names may not be correct (though they may well be correct for 1116+); third, and more important, is that many worlds have no name... but in other sector data (Milieu Zero I think) they all have names (mostly different from these names, unfortunately). Finally, the Xboat routes are not canonical; I just made them up.

 

[Straybow]

Some commentary on international (or interplanetary) trade currency, which you are free to ignore as pedantic.

Prevailing economic theories show that confidence in the stability of the issuing government is most responsible for establishing a standard international currency. When the British Empire dominated, pound sterling dominated. When US became predominant in international trade, the $US became predominant. In both cases political and economic stability of the issuing nation inspire confidence in the fiat money.

International Money and Common Currencies in Historical Perspective (pdf) posits that stability is only partly based on intrinsic value (specie). For most of the period examined in this chart local currencies were debased periodically, and some were devalued by the discovery of silver deposits (Austria and Castile). Local prices for goods and services experienced normal cyclic fluctuations but little inflation. Increases in production and in demand for currency apparently kept pace with the debasement.

Monetary deflation reflected here (eg, 0.2% in London, 2% in Castile) would impact local economies as value of internationally traded goods (pepper, spices, silk) increased relative to local goods.

The florin was preferred over the Genoese genoin and Venitian ducato until the 15th c when the ducato became predominant.

Table 1. Indices of exchange rates relative to the Florentine florin.
. . . . . .. 1252 .. 1300 . 1350 . . 1400 . .. 1450 . . . 1500
Austria . . . 90 . . 100 . . 141 . . . 225 . . . 333 . . . . 495
Castile . . . . . . . 100 . . 431 .. 1137.9 . 2586.2 . . 6465.5
Cologne . 37.5 . . 100 . 336.3 . . . 630 . . . 915 . . .. 1680
England . . 80 . .. 100 . . 100 . . . . 96 .. 121.3 . . . 146.7
Flanders . . . . . . 100 . 128.3 . . 255.2 .. 373.3 . . . 609.5
France . .. 80 . .. 100 .. . 250 . . . 220 .. 312.5 . . . 387.5
Rome . .. 58.8 . . 100 . 138.2 . . 214.7 .. 290.2 . . . 382.4
Venice . . . 75 . . 100 .. . 100 . . 145.3 .. 181.3 . . . 193.8
Source: Lothian (2002 forthcoming), based on data from Spufford (1988).

In order to effect a stable CrImp the issuer can first issue specie value currency. That means a gold, platinum, or even silver coin carries the market value of the metal content plus the fiat value of CrImp denomination¹. This protects the holder in markets distant from the issuing polity. This coinage need only be available in sufficient quantity to make a psychological impression on the highest levels of banking and interplanetary merchants.

Second, major sector economic seats can attempt to link their currency to the CrImp. Success would not be guaranteed, but with sufficient trade and banking ties to the Imp capital a firm union can be established in most cases. These seats would be made Imperial Mint sites authorized to mint specie value currency, non-specie coinage, and paper money in the name of the Imperium.

Third, an Imperial reserve banking system would control CrImp value in these major economic seats. A board composed of representatives from each of the seats would be responsible for maintaining stability and reporting on economic matters of interest through the sectors. For game purposes we ignore systemmatic inflation. We don't want price lists that change for every 50 years over a millennium of the milieu.

The idea of using force to intimidate locals into complying with schedule prices would fail, miserably. Adoption of an interplanetary currency depends on the trustworthiness of the issuer, not the power of the issuer. A planet or subsector that has trouble meeting schedule prices due to economic hardship can be boosted with an offer to pay a larger percentage in specie value currency.

Gross mismanagement of the local economy may result in collapse of goods and services available at Imp pricing. This would be handled by punishing the government, not the populace. Even democracies and religious dictatorships that refuse Imperial titles of nobility must hold fealty to the Imperium, and being called to the sector capitol to be audited in the Duke's court is bound to have dire consequences for the leadership.
__________
¹ This is the way specie coins are handled today. New American Eagle Silver coins are valued at $20 plus a market related specie cost. Silver just dropped from a 17 year high and the coin price has gone up to $27.95 from the US Mint. That includes a premium of approximately $2 for sale in 1 oz quantities instead of 5000 oz quantities (standard for market spot price). The $50 Gold Eagle when next struck will sell at $630, representing a premium of at least $180 over the market (hovering near $400). The $100 Platinum Eagle 2003 is selling at $1073.

For Traveller, a planetary government paid for services to the ImpNav in a quantity of specie value currency gets to sell them at the premium value to banks for use in large transactions. This helps both the government and the local economy.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Straybow:


<big snip>

Third, an Imperial reserve banking system would control CrImp value in these major economic seats.

<big snip>

Except that most canon tends to be anti-central banking. The whole story about the collapse the of the Second Imperium's banking system is in line with this.

Regardless of the actual value of a central bank, the OTU Imperium, I believe, is not supposed to have one (or at least I've read much popular sentiment against).

 

[Straybow]

But without something of the sort you have no CrImp. The economy of the core worlds can't have much effect on worlds years away (in terms of economic round-trip). They couldn't even issue enough money to cover the taxes all those worlds pay without resulting hyperinflation.

I'm pointing towards a distributed cooperative system. I don't think it would work very well keeping prices linked across so many sectors. Individual economies of major planets would be too hard to reign in if they grew faster or experienced significantly greater inflation.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Straybow:
But without something of the sort you have no CrImp. The economy of the core worlds can't have much effect on worlds years away (in terms of economic round-trip). They couldn't even issue enough money to cover the taxes all those worlds pay without resulting hyperinflation.

I'm pointing towards a distributed cooperative system. I don't think it would work very well keeping prices linked across so many sectors. Individual economies of major planets would be too hard to reign in if they grew faster or experienced significantly greater inflation.

The trouble is, you're introducing reality into the situation.

Here's one of those viewpoints I mentioned (I find it highly interesting, but not necessarily how I view it).

Money And The Empire