In Person Pen and Paper RPGs
- Thread starter LarryBReese
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Patron Zero
SOC-13
Surprisingly what might save and preserve IPP&P games is the accessibility of 3D-printers, a cutting edge technology filling the needs of an 'analog' pastime.
Mix in the Internet as both marketplace and public square for players and referees to find items for tabletop play and 'recruit' brave adventurers under a common flag. Using such you get a working system of reciprocal benefit to all involved, far less a major quest than in the pre-digital days of yore.
Mix in the Internet as both marketplace and public square for players and referees to find items for tabletop play and 'recruit' brave adventurers under a common flag. Using such you get a working system of reciprocal benefit to all involved, far less a major quest than in the pre-digital days of yore.
Maybe a part of the problem is the general simplifying of games in general. One of the players in my current Trav campaign brought this up and it kind of confirms some of my suspicions.
He is paying a lot of 'tabletop games' with a large group at the store we all play Traveller at. Mainly these are all pretty mainstream games like Firestorm Armada and Warhammer's various iterations. He and some others are starting a new wargaming group because they want more 'crunch' and seriousness in their games now, and they are finding it hard to attract new players because no one wants to read all the rules, learn the mechanics, or they balk at all the different units and organizations depending on the era. Yet these games like Panzerblitz, October War, and even something as simplistic as Command & Colors. Games that back in the 70's I cut my teeth on and were considered entry level in the industry.
But these same reluctant players will obsess over the latest crhome from WH40K and all the meticulous details of the latest miniature for it, but serious, detailed wargames - for get about it. Too much reading. Not enough minis for it.
I don't understand the disconnect, especially since a game like Wooden Ships and Iron Men has less pages of rules than any Warhammer scenario, and minis are available. Maybe its that the concepts in the rules are too abstract or require more than just rolling handfuls of dice? Is it marketing alone?
I see the same in video games: players want more simplified games with less options and controls. Games get dumber and shorter. Less detail and less role-play. Even Skyrim is pretty thin compared to the earlier incarnations of Elder Scrolls.
So are story games the 'chrome and bright colors" of RPG's now?
He is paying a lot of 'tabletop games' with a large group at the store we all play Traveller at. Mainly these are all pretty mainstream games like Firestorm Armada and Warhammer's various iterations. He and some others are starting a new wargaming group because they want more 'crunch' and seriousness in their games now, and they are finding it hard to attract new players because no one wants to read all the rules, learn the mechanics, or they balk at all the different units and organizations depending on the era. Yet these games like Panzerblitz, October War, and even something as simplistic as Command & Colors. Games that back in the 70's I cut my teeth on and were considered entry level in the industry.
But these same reluctant players will obsess over the latest crhome from WH40K and all the meticulous details of the latest miniature for it, but serious, detailed wargames - for get about it. Too much reading. Not enough minis for it.
I don't understand the disconnect, especially since a game like Wooden Ships and Iron Men has less pages of rules than any Warhammer scenario, and minis are available. Maybe its that the concepts in the rules are too abstract or require more than just rolling handfuls of dice? Is it marketing alone?
I see the same in video games: players want more simplified games with less options and controls. Games get dumber and shorter. Less detail and less role-play. Even Skyrim is pretty thin compared to the earlier incarnations of Elder Scrolls.
So are story games the 'chrome and bright colors" of RPG's now?
No. Not really.
Many of the story-gamers are just as die-hard as the hardcore Trad crowd.
The thing is, the storygames themselves support casual players far better than the trad games.
hmm...I wondered. I'm not keeping up with the terminology, I think. Today people refer to traditional RPGs as 'tabletop' games along with the wargame-lite minis games. Back in my day 'tabletop' meant a traditional miniatures wargame, and 'role-play game' meant anything you ran a character in.
Oh hey....saw a bright light today for us wargamers: apparently Steve Jackson Games is selling Car Wars and Ogre again in the originl packaging for ridiculously low prices. Ogre in a ziplock for 2.95! Same game, same price is the advert on the back. Car Wars, the full original set for just 20 buckadingdongs! Here's hoping the rest come out again and I can round up some players with those easier games, then wean them on to something like Imperium.
Oh hey....saw a bright light today for us wargamers: apparently Steve Jackson Games is selling Car Wars and Ogre again in the originl packaging for ridiculously low prices. Ogre in a ziplock for 2.95! Same game, same price is the advert on the back. Car Wars, the full original set for just 20 buckadingdongs! Here's hoping the rest come out again and I can round up some players with those easier games, then wean them on to something like Imperium.
The boxed set out isn't pocket. It's a reprint of "Car Wars Classic" - which is 1990's era. Most of the errata got entered.
Just released is the CW Compendium 2.5 boxed deluxe set. As in, this week.
I haven't seen pocket announced as being reprinted, let alone the baggie. They have rereleased the "Mini Car Wars"... which isn't even as much as the original pocket. It's just enough to give a taste of the rules. No design system, 3 pages of rules, 2 pages of road and counters (totalling 1 standard section of road, since they're double sided printing), simplified crash table, non-standard phases (Everyone moves 1 phase per 10 MPH, as many phases as needed). It's printed on 25.5x11", IIRC (my dead tree is buried), tri-folded into an 8x11", then tri-folded into a 4" pamphlet. Dead tree in prior runs was on glossy stock, around 75#.
I just checked all of 2014's releases. The other releases are PDF only, and don't include the original pocket, either.
CW Compendium 2.5 was released a few years ago in PDF. That's the black cover compendium, for reference. Rules changes from CWC2 are minor.
Classic, Deluxe, and Compendium 2.5 are all 5 phases.
I love this type of Game!!
To the original question: Myself and a group of friends just started playing Traveller a few months ago...I'm s*#king at reffing but starting to get the hang of it. For us it is about hanging out together, we meet ever Friday night, we D&D'd for almost 4 years straight, P&P. we will play all kinds of games as long as we get to hang out together. We actually have trouble with the openness of the rules Traveller but love it...would be better if I was better at my job...we learn the game together and get to make our own variants to the rules so long as all agree. Our age group is from 25-ish to 50-ish, and once we all get a bit more knowledgeable and can make the game flow better I will probably try to get more players to join at one of the local game stores.
You will never see any of us on the stats for the game other than buying books and other resources for the game...and how long can you use the same books and resources to keep playing? And with Trav being so open, you can use resources that are not even associated with the game.
I don't think it is dieing out, I just don't think you can see who is playing.
I love P&P games...but I'm old, so face to face socializing is common and needed in my life...
To the original question: Myself and a group of friends just started playing Traveller a few months ago...I'm s*#king at reffing but starting to get the hang of it. For us it is about hanging out together, we meet ever Friday night, we D&D'd for almost 4 years straight, P&P. we will play all kinds of games as long as we get to hang out together. We actually have trouble with the openness of the rules Traveller but love it...would be better if I was better at my job...we learn the game together and get to make our own variants to the rules so long as all agree. Our age group is from 25-ish to 50-ish, and once we all get a bit more knowledgeable and can make the game flow better I will probably try to get more players to join at one of the local game stores.
You will never see any of us on the stats for the game other than buying books and other resources for the game...and how long can you use the same books and resources to keep playing? And with Trav being so open, you can use resources that are not even associated with the game.
I don't think it is dieing out, I just don't think you can see who is playing.
I love P&P games...but I'm old, so face to face socializing is common and needed in my life...
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I agree that Traveller can be bear for a Ref not experienced with the game.
I was lucky enough to have my first experience with Traveller be with a Ref that was very comfortable with the rules--so much so that he didn't even have anything planned. I was over at this dude's house, and he said, "Do you want to play Traveller?"
I said, "Traveller? What's that?"
And, he told me it was a roleplaying game. I was already playing D&D, and I'd spotted the little black box at the toy store (used to buy RPG stuff at Toys R Us).
I said, "Sure."
And, that started a love affair with the game.
I lived through creating a character (this was CT, of course). I say "lived" through because he made me roll for survival. That was damn fun.
My character had a few skills. He mustered out. He was a Marine.
Then, the Ref described the planet I was on and just said, "OK, you're out of the Marines. You've got your bag with all your gear in it--it ain't much. You're in the busy starport. What do you want to do?"
And then we just....played.
It was awesome. I did whatever I wanted. The Ref made it up as we went along. It was great.
Fantastic game.
We played another session, and by session three, we were getting some more friends to join. The Ref got more serious about an adventure and did some work outside the game. Me and the other players bought a ship, and we started trading.
One of the cargoes had an "Alien" type creature on it (the Ref used the Alien from JTAS), and the damn thing tore us up.
Great game.
I was lucky enough to have my first experience with Traveller be with a Ref that was very comfortable with the rules--so much so that he didn't even have anything planned. I was over at this dude's house, and he said, "Do you want to play Traveller?"
I said, "Traveller? What's that?"
And, he told me it was a roleplaying game. I was already playing D&D, and I'd spotted the little black box at the toy store (used to buy RPG stuff at Toys R Us).
I said, "Sure."
And, that started a love affair with the game.
I lived through creating a character (this was CT, of course). I say "lived" through because he made me roll for survival. That was damn fun.
My character had a few skills. He mustered out. He was a Marine.
Then, the Ref described the planet I was on and just said, "OK, you're out of the Marines. You've got your bag with all your gear in it--it ain't much. You're in the busy starport. What do you want to do?"
And then we just....played.
It was awesome. I did whatever I wanted. The Ref made it up as we went along. It was great.
Fantastic game.
We played another session, and by session three, we were getting some more friends to join. The Ref got more serious about an adventure and did some work outside the game. Me and the other players bought a ship, and we started trading.
One of the cargoes had an "Alien" type creature on it (the Ref used the Alien from JTAS), and the damn thing tore us up.
Great game.
Sifu Blackirish
SOC-14 1K
on the same day that i was lurking and peeked at this thread, an ad came on the radio while i was at work for a flgs. i was motivated enough to drive over there and post an ad seeking traveller players.
it has been many years since i did anything other than playing at traveller, and now being freed from the chains of bitter matrimony (long story) i have nothing stopping me. if there is to be a traveller renaissance, let it begin with me!
i use the computer a lot, not to remake traveller into something it is not, but to take the drudgery out of flipping pages to find that one obscure rule. making gaming more transparent so there is more role playing and less paperwork is the future.
edit: i have such a relaxed gm style that a smooth talking player can get away with almost anything. perhaps this storytelling thing is worth a look-see.
related: i ran into a former work companion at the flgs, and i offered to teach him traveller if he taught me magic etc. never touched a card game. might prove to be interesting...
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[scooby]Ruh-roh. Re round Ramer Rack...[/scooby]
Card games have done more to erode the player base than have computer games... MTG for many is a lifestyle...
There's a reason it's derisively called "Gamer Crack"...
Yes, well then we need to use card games as gateway drugs to get players over into the hard stuff. If we get them mainlining a real RPG they will probably be hooked for life. I was. I don't think I'll ever be able to stop.
"Pssst...hey kid, yeah put down those cards man, those are for suckers and wet smacks. The real action is with dice, paper n' pencil, and your imagination, man!"
"Pssst...hey kid, yeah put down those cards man, those are for suckers and wet smacks. The real action is with dice, paper n' pencil, and your imagination, man!"
I figured it would be flashy colors and graphics, collectability and trading, easy to learn, and backed up by ridiculous amounts of marketing.
RPG's are kinda pricey these days (even though the card games are too, once you get going, the initial investment is very little), require an awful lot of supplemental materials, require a lot of reading and no small amount of imaginative effort, and except for the ones previously mentioned here have little or no advertising. No support at conventions like Comic Con, etc..
And I wonder: do game conventions like DragonCon even happen anymore? Or all they all rolled into larger comics/games/video game fests?
RPG's are kinda pricey these days (even though the card games are too, once you get going, the initial investment is very little), require an awful lot of supplemental materials, require a lot of reading and no small amount of imaginative effort, and except for the ones previously mentioned here have little or no advertising. No support at conventions like Comic Con, etc..
And I wonder: do game conventions like DragonCon even happen anymore? Or all they all rolled into larger comics/games/video game fests?
DragonCon still happens. See http://www.dragoncon.org/ for more information.
My friends who quit RPGing in favor of MTG did so because they couldn't schedule the time for RPGing, but could find pickup games of MTG when they had 20 minutes to spare, just by hanging at the local FLGS's play area, or out front of it, with their deckbox and their play-mat.
Several of them have come back to RPGing via organized play events, namely D&D Adventurer's League (Including Encounters), and Pathfinder Society. Which are organized so that you have your own character, and if you show up, you play whatever's playing... and you get your loot and experience for the session. If you can't be there, no big deal; if you can, great.
FYI,
I'm running an Adventurer's League table for my FLGS under Casual Play (it was encounters, but my regulars leveled up out of Encounters (levels 1-3), so we had to switch to casual play to continue the module.
As a DM, I've got to be there regularly. But my players don't. If one's absent, and a new guy shows, fine, he "blips in" in place of the missing player's PC.
Casual Play has some non-casual players- I've had the same core 5 players for about 11 weeks... and D&D AL play only allows 7 per DM....
As a DM, I've got to be there regularly. But my players don't. If one's absent, and a new guy shows, fine, he "blips in" in place of the missing player's PC.
Casual Play has some non-casual players- I've had the same core 5 players for about 11 weeks... and D&D AL play only allows 7 per DM....
Traveller has no organized play as yet. I don't have the programming skills to set up the database system that one would need.
Marc's last foray into CCG's didn't go so well.
Patron Zero
SOC-13
Maybe not a dedicated CCG but I would support and purchase a deck of 'reference' cards that provided the stats and silhouettes of ships, both naval-military and civilian-commercial.
Such could also have a 'companion' set of cards for robots and other technological items found in Traveller.
Such could also have a 'companion' set of cards for robots and other technological items found in Traveller.
Wow, reference cards, can't believe I haven't thought of that yet, will definitely have to start working on some. One of my friends built an Excel pivot table for trading, all they need to do now is enter stats for a new planet and wala...they can trade out to 5 planets, and it only gives you the best deals for buy/sell, so if you need something from 1 planet that sells great at three more stops you can get it here and hold it...even has random dice roller for everything involved but I don't let them us it. I like the personal rolls. As to the difficulty of Reffing, I just make sure they tell me where they intend to go next at the end of a session, and I poke ideas at it all week so I can have some sort of a guide for the next meet. We are running the Pirates of Drinax atm, have yet to do a random game.
salochin999
SOC-13
I think Traveller's problem vis a vis games like D&D or Pathfinder is that it's not as conceptually easy to GM. At 11 (or whatever age I was) I ran a D&D game for my brothers within a few hours of reading the rules - draw a dungeon on a piece of paper, random roll for monsters and treasure in each room and it's done and just as importantly they grasped the concept straight away.
I don't think there's really a solution to that - D&D and Pathfinder (at least the simpler versions) are/were better suited to beginners imo and because people play them young they're likely to stick with them to an extent.
That still leaves games like Traveller for people who like sci-fi and want a change after playing D&D for a while which leads to the second problem which is in D&D and Pathfinder the combat is explicitly balanced for the players and Traveller isn't. Why get attached to a character when they can die so easily?
(I have the same problem with Cthulhu when it's played the usual way.)
So that to me is the conumdrum - how to play Traveller in a simulationist way over a continuing campaign without the players dying all the time?
The solution I came up with in the past was make it more military and tactical because then the players would start fully equipped with armor and rocket launchers. Now I think make it very low combat instead.
