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Ine Givar has the organization ever been clearly defined?

Meteoric Assault

Marquis de Sharkbait
Admin Award
Ine Givar has the organization ever been clearly defined. I remember several JTAS articles bringing them in as an anti-imperial terrorist organization. However it's origins and history are shrouded in mystery.

It is safe to assume the Zhodani have ties ( like the soviets to the 80's terror groups). is it political?, ethnic?, religious?.... did it begin prior to imperial settlement and annexation? Or is it a result of it?

Many questions. :coffeesip:
 
I recall in the GURPS Traveller book, Loren Wiseman fills us in a bit of the origins of the Ine Givar.

They were made up because GDW needed an anti-Imperial terrorist organization. The name doesn't mean anything - it sounds pretty good, but more importantly, it doesn't give away any kind of (potentially controversial?) ties to any real-world concepts or movements.

From there, they've developed, and not always in a good way. They often seem to be a victim of some heavy-handed biases by the Traveller writers. For instance, I recall in the news articles that were later bundled for Survival Margin, the Ine Givar were seen to be active on university campuses and on worlds with (suspiciously American) freedoms, they organize openly, suggesting they have at least a semi-legal political wing, however, several members were arrested for brandishing unloaded firearms and having a banner with misspelled words (suggesting they're not too bright).
 
I've always thought that the Ine Givar fit the "franchise" terrorist organisation very well.

Consider how difficult it would be to run an interstellar terrorist organisation. Communications and transfer of personnel would be difficult. having a common political agenda (beyond Impies out!) would be difficult among the different cultures.

However if you send one Ine Givar agent provocateur or a four man cell to another world to introduce the Ine Givar franchise to local terror and rebel groups that could work. It may work like a merc Cadre mission, educating and upskilling local groups with the Ine Givar way of doing things adapted for local conditions.

With the Zho link it could be that a psionic agent could spread the Ine Givar meme into a local population and/or finance local terroist groups in return for using the anti-imperial Ine Givar branding.


However here's the conspiracy theorist take on the Ine Givar:


They're not defined, they have no clear organisation, no history, no concrete political manifesto because they are an Imperial invention.....

Every time the Imperial authorities have a problem with purely local anti-imperial agitation they brand it as Ine Givar in the media and insinuate that the terrorists aren't right in the head because the Zhos have taken them over. After all why would anyone rebel against the benevolent Imperium that doesn't oppress anyone but just rules the space between stars?

Branding local rebels as Ine Givar unites all Imperial citizens against them and cuts out any examination of the causes of rebellion and squashes any sympathy in the local area.


Note: I'm using "local" in this case to mean a planet, system or subsector.
 
The Mongoose Agent book fills you in a bit more on their activities and organization. They even translate the name, I think. Can't really remember at the moment.
 
However here's the conspiracy theorist take on the Ine Givar:


They're not defined, they have no clear organisation, no history, no concrete political manifesto because they are an Imperial invention.....

Every time the Imperial authorities have a problem with purely local anti-imperial agitation they brand it as Ine Givar in the media and insinuate that the terrorists aren't right in the head because the Zhos have taken them over. After all why would anyone rebel against the benevolent Imperium that doesn't oppress anyone but just rules the space between stars?

Branding local rebels as Ine Givar unites all Imperial citizens against them and cuts out any examination of the causes of rebellion and squashes any sympathy in the local area.


Note: I'm using "local" in this case to mean a planet, system or subsector.

I like this approach...

An all-incluiding name for the Imperium to accuse every anti-Imperium group to be under its umbrella (and so accusing them to be Zhodani puppets).
 
Consider how difficult it would be to run an interstellar terrorist organisation.

This is one of the reasons why I've always found the Ine Givar to be vaguely ridiculous. They're basically a response to the real-world. Terrorism is (and has been) a hot topic of conflict in our world for a few decades now, so writers of Traveller have tried including it into the Travellerverse. I pretty much believe the Ine Givar sounds good if you don't think too hard about it (something in common with a lot of the 3I). Once you do...

To me, the evolution of the 3I lore involves a kind of "philosophical shrinking" of the Imperium for no other reason that I can fathom than the limited imaginations of the writers involved in Traveller itself trying to fit the Imperium into model of a Earth nation-state. When I say "philosophical shrinking" I overlap with a lot of users on here who talk about the "monolithic nation-state Imperium."

Early versions of Traveller involved a loose Imperium (before some grognard steps in, yes I know, the earliest versions of Traveller didn't have an Imperium at all). However, in the beginning the 3I was an "Imperium that ruled the space between worlds, not the worlds themselves." Ever since then there's been a kind of "power creep" of the Imperium; it seems to get more and more powerful, more and more invasive into the affairs of individual worlds, and even the lives of those living on each world. Eventually we had this concept of Imperial nobles that somehow "rule" over worlds (wait, what ever happened to not ruling worlds directly?), "Imperial worlds", "Imperial culture" vague ideas of the Imperium taxing individual citizens, a common physical currency, an "Imperial Army", megacorporations with Imperium-spanning operations, and finally interstellar banking with a high level of liquidity in markets spanning lightyears that much of this would require.

I call this a philosophical shrinking because the basic tenet of the Imperium that should have precluded this monolithic Imperium has never changed - communications is limited to Jump. A Jump takes one week, so getting information between worlds is at least a one week process, often much, much longer. How many of these concepts of this "galactic village" Imperium could work in a situation where communications are so slow stretch and finally break disbelief for me.

This is a roundabout way of saying that I don't think the Ine Givar would exist unless we've gone pretty far down the "Monolithic Imperium" model.

Terrorism is a kind of warfare that appears in response to specific situation - the opposition's power is so overwhelming and pervasive, only token and often symbolic strikes are possible. If the opposition's strength isn't that great, then guerilla warfare is more common. If the opposition is weaker still, then outright warfare occurs.

In more loose versions of the Imperium, there's simply not enough Imperial interference to really get people resentful of the Imperium. If they do somehow get resentful enough, in looser versions of the Imperium, the Imperium is going to have a lot more to deal with than a few people planting bombs; the Ine Givar should be able to organize and arm sufficiently in a looser Imperium so that it is fighting guerilla wars to making actual strikes on the downports or highports on worlds.

I have doubts if the actual logistics of Jump-speed communications make the monolithic Imperium models even possible - the kind that would have a tight enough grip to make resistance to it only possible based on modern terrorist models and where somehow the Ine Givar is a terrorist organization that pops up in some form across multiple worlds.
 
This is one of the reasons why I've always found the Ine Givar to be vaguely ridiculous. They're basically a response to the real-world. Terrorism is (and has been) a hot topic of conflict in our world for a few decades now, so writers of Traveller have tried including it into the Travellerverse. I pretty much believe the Ine Givar sounds good if you don't think too hard about it (something in common with a lot of the 3I). Once you do...

To me, the evolution of the 3I lore involves a kind of "philosophical shrinking" of the Imperium for no other reason that I can fathom than the limited imaginations of the writers involved in Traveller itself trying to fit the Imperium into model of a Earth nation-state. When I say "philosophical shrinking" I overlap with a lot of users on here who talk about the "monolithic nation-state Imperium."

Early versions of Traveller involved a loose Imperium (before some grognard steps in, yes I know, the earliest versions of Traveller didn't have an Imperium at all). However, in the beginning the 3I was an "Imperium that ruled the space between worlds, not the worlds themselves." Ever since then there's been a kind of "power creep" of the Imperium; it seems to get more and more powerful, more and more invasive into the affairs of individual worlds, and even the lives of those living on each world. Eventually we had this concept of Imperial nobles that somehow "rule" over worlds (wait, what ever happened to not ruling worlds directly?), "Imperial worlds", "Imperial culture" vague ideas of the Imperium taxing individual citizens, a common physical currency, an "Imperial Army", megacorporations with Imperium-spanning operations, and finally interstellar banking with a high level of liquidity in markets spanning lightyears that much of this would require.

I call this a philosophical shrinking because the basic tenet of the Imperium that should have precluded this monolithic Imperium has never changed - communications is limited to Jump. A Jump takes one week, so getting information between worlds is at least a one week process, often much, much longer. How many of these concepts of this "galactic village" Imperium could work in a situation where communications are so slow stretch and finally break disbelief for me.

This is a roundabout way of saying that I don't think the Ine Givar would exist unless we've gone pretty far down the "Monolithic Imperium" model.

I have doubts if the actual logistics of Jump-speed communications make the monolithic Imperium models even possible - the kind that would have a tight enough grip to make resistance to it only possible based on modern terrorist models and where somehow the Ine Givar is a terrorist organization that pops up in some form across multiple worlds.

Yes, Imperium changed from Traveller's beginings to Third Imperium as see nin OTU, but I don't see it as monolitic. As you say, communications would not allow it, but historically we have had in Earth some such Empires with long communications lags, as it was the Roman Empiero or the Spanish Empire in modern age.

Terrorism is a kind of warfare that appears in response to specific situation - the opposition's power is so overwhelming and pervasive, only token and often symbolic strikes are possible. If the opposition's strength isn't that great, then guerilla warfare is more common. If the opposition is weaker still, then outright warfare occurs.

In more loose versions of the Imperium, there's simply not enough Imperial interference to really get people resentful of the Imperium. If they do somehow get resentful enough, in looser versions of the Imperium, the Imperium is going to have a lot more to deal with than a few people planting bombs; the Ine Givar should be able to organize and arm sufficiently in a looser Imperium so that it is fighting guerilla wars to making actual strikes on the downports or highports on worlds.

See that Ine Givar is told to conduct the tree levels. It sets up bombs in Pixie Shipyards (201-1105, as explained in JTAS NS isue #3, page 6), it is conducting a gerrilla war that seems to be escalating ot full scale war at Efate (JTAS Ns issues #4, page 4 for 274-1105; #5, page 5 for 004-1106; #5, page 6 for 146-1106; #8, page 6 for 078-1107) and hinted to maintain activities in Feri and Forboldn (JTAS NS issue #4, page 4 for 241-1105), while not specified with kind of them (all the JTAS NS apoints here are also in FFW rules preface).

That's why I like Reban's approach of a "franchise terrorist organization" or "Imperian naming for all of them so that we can blame the Zhodani for any anti-imperial ared grous in the Marches", in both cases englobing groups that have little to do with one another.
 
based on modern terrorist models

There are of course historical terrorist models from the age of empires such as the Fenians and Anarchists that we could model the Ine Givar on.

You don't have to have a monolithic terrorist organisation or for that matter a monolithic opponent for them to fight.

The aims of a terrorist organisation don't have to be very sophisticated or even wholly rational.

The Ine Givar are "opposed to the Imperium" - that gives us a great deal of latitude in defining how they work and are organised.

Being opposed to the Imperium may mean attacking the Imperium directly or attacking those who co-operate with the Imperium.

Anyone that is opposed to the Imperium due to purely local matters ("They turffed me off my slime farm to build a Starport", "They drafted my brother and I'll never see him again", "I object to 0.00001% of my taxes going to some unelected monarch").

"Do you feel oppressed? Have you a beef with big government and faceless bureaucracy? Join our brotherhood and learn how to empower yourself and strike back. Join the Ine Givar struggle today!"

My point here is the Ine Givar doesn't have to be an interstellar organization with sophisticated communications links. It can be a purely local phenomenon on any Imperial world. The thing that ties it together is that each of these local terrorist groups are "opposing the Imperium", they'll each be doing that in their own way and with their own goals and aims.

Now if you tie that together with some Zhodani money and propaganda you have a movement (everyone is moving in the same direction although they may all have different destinations in mind).

Of course according to my alternate theory this could be Imperial opportunism painting all these disparate groups as Zho puppets.
 
The interesting thing about both the Fenians and Anarchists is that both groups were largely made up of ethnic minorities displaced by imperial aggression and maneuvering

Ine Givar is in a language we don't recognize, they are found mainly in the Domain of Deneb.... are there any candidates for an ethic group that wants to oppose the Imperium and has Zhodani sympathies or at least common interests?


There are of course many more modern terrorist organizations used to wage proxy wars but none can be discussed outside The Pit.
 
The interesting thing about both the Fenians and Anarchists is that both groups were largely made up of ethnic minorities displaced by imperial aggression and maneuvering

Ine Givar is in a language we don't recognize, they are found mainly in the Domain of Deneb.... are there any candidates for an ethic group that wants to oppose the Imperium and has Zhodani sympathies or at least common interests?


There are of course many more modern terrorist organizations used to wage proxy wars but none can be discussed outside The Pit.

Good observation, I have often wondered that myself... could the be part of a displaced earlier settlement or polity?
 
Note that the FFW boardgame suggests a degree of central direction - and from outside the Imperium.

The Outworld Coalition player gets to set up the ten (IIRC) guerrilla counters on systems of his choice. He gets to determine when they go 'active' and when they hunker down. When he conquers a world with guerrillas present, he can opt to have them provide some or all of the garrison for that world rather than using Outworld Coalition mainforce units.
 
However here's the conspiracy theorist take on the Ine Givar:

They're not defined, they have no clear organisation, no history, no concrete political manifesto because they are an Imperial invention.....

Note: I'm using "local" in this case to mean a planet, system or subsector.

Hi,

I must say I like this take as unless a planet is under direct military rule, the 3I has no say in the government of planets, so any logical terrorist organisation would be opposed to the oppression of the current world government.

Kind Regards

David

ps I also hate the large number of hi-pop Theocracies, if anything would trigger a terrorist movement it would most likely be these...
 
Hi,

I must say I like this take as unless a planet is under direct military rule, the 3I has no say in the government of planets, so any logical terrorist organisation would be opposed to the oppression of the current world government.

Kind Regards

David

ps I also hate the large number of hi-pop Theocracies, if anything would trigger a terrorist movement it would most likely be these...

That wasn't always the case ... reading the JTAS entries it would indicate direct or proxy imperial soft targets were always hit.
 
Interesting thread. Various and sundry comments:

  • The Ine Givar movement does/did exist. Maybe on Efate, perhaps in the immediate region, but some sort of organization undertaking some kind of acts gave rise to the name. Regardless of the current status of the original movement, the Ine Givar name has been co-opted in many, many different ways.
  • The name is used as a label of convenience by anyone in power. Much like how nationalist movements during the Cold War were labeled "communist" or "imperialist" depending on who was talking, in the Marches any vaguely anti-Imperial movement or, more importantly, any movement which can be "spun" as anti-Imperial is labeled "Ine Givar".
  • The name is used as a catspaw by the Marches' two superpowers. The Zhos and Impies both use the label in various ways as a political, propaganda, and deniable action tool against the other. All the guerilla units placed by the Zho player in FFW aren't actually Ine Givar, but to behooves both the Consulate and Imperium to claim otherwise.
  • The name is used as shorthand by the lazy and stupid. Just as how every scandal, political or not, now has the word "Gate" automatically appended to it, the 57th Century version of the mainstream media, chattering/nattering classes, bloggers, and other such idiots call any fringe movement with political undertones "Ine Givar".
  • The name is used by "wannabes" and others desiring instant "street cred". There's a TNS item in MT, IIRC, that has students at a college in Regina claiming to support the Ine Givar. Other marginal, newly formed, or tiny groups with various goals, abilities, and levels of competence will claim Ine Givar links to gain attention.

The actual Ine Givar movement isn't/wasn't widespread on an interstellar level. The label "Ine Givar" is used on a widespread interstellar level however. Much like the Anarchists "movement" of the 1880s and 1890s, there are a great many groups and individuals doing a great many different things calling themselves "Ine Givar" without ever meeting, speaking, or even knowing about each other.

On a meta-game level, Ine Givar was repeatedly used by earlier Traveller writers as a quick way to name an organization they wanted referees and players to know/believe was terrorist in nature. As for MgT's "explanation" of the Ine Givar, you only need to remember it's from Mongoose. ;)
 
As for MgT's "explanation" of the Ine Givar, you only need to remember it's from Mongoose. ;)

And as it is a Traveller version licenced by Mr Miller, and an Official 3I supplement, it is cannon. This is still a fact despite that it seems you do not care take it seriously, not do you want others to do so either.

Please quit writing off the current "cannon" as less than acceptable. It is spreading of edition wars, and makes those that do, look intolerant, ignorant and seeming to want to make trouble. Not to mention it falls under Actions detrimental.

[m;] EDITION WARS AND BAD MOUTHING VARIOUS EDITIONS IS NOT TOLERATED. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM DOING SO, AND DISCUSS THINGS IN A CIVILIZED MANNER.[/m;]
 
We've recently been able to drag Whipsnade back into COTI's discussions, haven't we?
 
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