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Interesting Traveller Article

Originally posted by Zob10701:
Wow. I know when I've been insulted.
How? Bill obviously disagrees with you about the article in question, and he does express himself somewhat forcefully, but all his colorful expressions seem to be directed at the article, not you. So unless you consider it an insult that someone would dare to disagree with any opinion of yours, I don't quite see what your problem is. (The writer of the article, now... he might have occasion to take offense... ;) )

Mind you, Bill does on occasion express himself in language so strong than he regrets it when he simmers down. I suspect this may be the case here.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Zob10701:
Wow. I know when I've been insulted.
How? Bill obviously disagrees with you about the article in question, and he does express himself somewhat forcefully, but all his colorful expressions seem to be directed at the article, not you. So unless you consider it an insult that someone would dare to disagree with any opinion of yours, I don't quite see what your problem is. (The writer of the article, now... he might have occasion to take offense... ;) )

Mind you, Bill does on occasion express himself in language so strong than he regrets it when he simmers down. I suspect this may be the case here.


Hans
 
Uh, there are two instances where he says "you," meaning me.
One where he says I know little about Traveller and one where he says I know just as little about science fiction.
I find that insulting.
If I'm wrong about something, fine, tell me, I'm a big boy, I can take it. I just don't see the need to insult me while you correct me. I don't think that's cool.
 
Uh, there are two instances where he says "you," meaning me.
One where he says I know little about Traveller and one where he says I know just as little about science fiction.
I find that insulting.
If I'm wrong about something, fine, tell me, I'm a big boy, I can take it. I just don't see the need to insult me while you correct me. I don't think that's cool.
 
Originally posted by Zob10701:
Uh, there are two instances where he says "you," meaning me.
One where he says I know little about Traveller and one where he says I know just as little about science fiction.
I find that insulting.
If I'm wrong about something, fine, tell me, I'm a big boy, I can take it. I just don't see the need to insult me while you correct me. I don't think that's cool.
Hum... Yes, I'll grant you that that was a bit harsh (Though it is true that Piper is far from obscure). Still, I have to agree that Bill was out of line there.


Hans
 
Originally posted by Zob10701:
Uh, there are two instances where he says "you," meaning me.
One where he says I know little about Traveller and one where he says I know just as little about science fiction.
I find that insulting.
If I'm wrong about something, fine, tell me, I'm a big boy, I can take it. I just don't see the need to insult me while you correct me. I don't think that's cool.
Hum... Yes, I'll grant you that that was a bit harsh (Though it is true that Piper is far from obscure). Still, I have to agree that Bill was out of line there.


Hans
 
Bill's implications are fairly legit, tho'...

Piper is far from obscure (nearly pulp). The sword worlds in traveller are an homage, but not a lift. One of several in Sup 3. Hell, there ain't enough in CT cannon to rule out such until the JTAS article.

His delivery is harsh, but he's still on point.
 
Bill's implications are fairly legit, tho'...

Piper is far from obscure (nearly pulp). The sword worlds in traveller are an homage, but not a lift. One of several in Sup 3. Hell, there ain't enough in CT cannon to rule out such until the JTAS article.

His delivery is harsh, but he's still on point.
 
Despite their fundamental differences, the author cannot even distinguish between the Traveller RPG model and the D&D/d20 RPG model. His calling MegaTraveller a 2D6 type of d20 beggars disbelief.
I think he was saying that you could call MT "2d6"... just like D&D is now called "d20." Like we might call GURPS "3d6."

Of course, the author's comments in the "forum" may be worthy of scorn, etc... nevertheless they don't have anything to do with the quality of the article. Those that want to tear this guy up, I challenge you to pick apart the article instead.


Aside to those simmering with righteous indignation--

True or False: MT was useable out of the box.

</kerosene>
 
Despite their fundamental differences, the author cannot even distinguish between the Traveller RPG model and the D&D/d20 RPG model. His calling MegaTraveller a 2D6 type of d20 beggars disbelief.
I think he was saying that you could call MT "2d6"... just like D&D is now called "d20." Like we might call GURPS "3d6."

Of course, the author's comments in the "forum" may be worthy of scorn, etc... nevertheless they don't have anything to do with the quality of the article. Those that want to tear this guy up, I challenge you to pick apart the article instead.


Aside to those simmering with righteous indignation--

True or False: MT was useable out of the box.

</kerosene>
 
I thought the article made some good points. Pegging CT as 'noir adventure in space' nicely articulates a gut feeling I have been unable to state before now.
 
I thought the article made some good points. Pegging CT as 'noir adventure in space' nicely articulates a gut feeling I have been unable to state before now.
 
Originally posted by Jeffr0:
...True or False: MT was useable out of the box.

</kerosene>
Usable as what?

</tosses lit match>

file_23.gif


I kid, really
file_22.gif
 
You could make characters right out of the box, no problem.

There just wasn't much in the way of support for the system, outside of articles in Challenge magazine.
 
You could make characters right out of the box, no problem.

There just wasn't much in the way of support for the system, outside of articles in Challenge magazine.
 
There are some interesting things in the article (the Dumarest of Terra stuff is really interesting). But he blows the Sword World thing, a minor setting detail, way out of proportion. And in general I feel like there's some confusion of setting and theme Noir is a theme, not a setting. I can't say that I know enough about the history of Traveller and GDW, or even all eras of science fiction to make as many references as the author, so I don't have too much confidence in what I'm saying, but I do feel like he is missing something.

I find it weird that he doesn't mention the military adventure style of story. In this kind of story, a group of characters performs a mission that is basically unrelated to their personal lives, one that involves travelling somewhere dangerous to do something or find something out. The mission itself is unusual and might be seen as shady; it might even be thrust upon them. The equipment and areas of expertise of the group are very important. Most importantly, there isn't quite a main character: the story is about the group, and some of them might very well die, but there are probably 2 or 3 you like that you hope will live.

Doesn't that sound a little bit like Traveller? Those aren't even close to the elements of noir. It's true that the Traveller universe lacks a "good vs. evil" axis, which could lead to calling it 'amoral' but it takes more than crime to make a noir. Noirs generally have personal betrayal, set-ups, single main characters that navigate a web of intrigue, lies and traps, getting ahead by zigging instead of zagging and being good judges of character and good liars and schemers. There are femme fatales, stoolies, bosses.. sure you can incorporate elements of this in any game or run CT this way, but does that really sound like Traveller? I think the author means to say 'dark' when he says 'noir'.

Aliens was a military adventure, and fairly 'dark' SF, had a tiny amount of world hopping -- it was Travellerish -- and it was popular enough I think to almost immediately disprove the author's point. He parries it weakly by saying it's really like Traveller 2300. There's Serenity as well. Even Star Wars had a lot of common ground with Traveller: the whole climax of the movie is a military mission. I haven't seen the new Battlestar Galactica series but it meets some of the theme (probably its too character-based instead of military mission based). Stargate SG-1 was fairly damn Traveller-y too. Set Saving Private Ryan in space -- bam, you've got Traveller.

Star Trek (especially later), on the other hand, is so (especially later) D&D. A small group of characters sort of amble about in poorly defined circumstances with magical devices (and pointy ears!) getting in magical situations, undergoing magical transformations, fleshing out their backgrounds and interacting with recurring, super-powerful NPCs. They never quite have to do anything but assert their personalities or built-in character powers to escape whatever random peril they've blundered into this time in their vague pursuit of this or that. There's also something very superheroic about it, and something of Alice in Wonderland.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that the military adventure stamp of Traveller is very apparent to me, and this is more of a theme than a setting, and that the theme is actually pretty popular in and out of SF. Certainly I think it might have inspired more of what Traveller is about than Piper's descriptions of a starry sky.

Now if we're just going to talk about the setting (and discard this nonsense about 'hard gritty noir' and missions and so forth) -- yeah, Traveller is showing its age, and really is part of a whole sci-fi type of universe that is fading away, perhaps...
 
There are some interesting things in the article (the Dumarest of Terra stuff is really interesting). But he blows the Sword World thing, a minor setting detail, way out of proportion. And in general I feel like there's some confusion of setting and theme Noir is a theme, not a setting. I can't say that I know enough about the history of Traveller and GDW, or even all eras of science fiction to make as many references as the author, so I don't have too much confidence in what I'm saying, but I do feel like he is missing something.

I find it weird that he doesn't mention the military adventure style of story. In this kind of story, a group of characters performs a mission that is basically unrelated to their personal lives, one that involves travelling somewhere dangerous to do something or find something out. The mission itself is unusual and might be seen as shady; it might even be thrust upon them. The equipment and areas of expertise of the group are very important. Most importantly, there isn't quite a main character: the story is about the group, and some of them might very well die, but there are probably 2 or 3 you like that you hope will live.

Doesn't that sound a little bit like Traveller? Those aren't even close to the elements of noir. It's true that the Traveller universe lacks a "good vs. evil" axis, which could lead to calling it 'amoral' but it takes more than crime to make a noir. Noirs generally have personal betrayal, set-ups, single main characters that navigate a web of intrigue, lies and traps, getting ahead by zigging instead of zagging and being good judges of character and good liars and schemers. There are femme fatales, stoolies, bosses.. sure you can incorporate elements of this in any game or run CT this way, but does that really sound like Traveller? I think the author means to say 'dark' when he says 'noir'.

Aliens was a military adventure, and fairly 'dark' SF, had a tiny amount of world hopping -- it was Travellerish -- and it was popular enough I think to almost immediately disprove the author's point. He parries it weakly by saying it's really like Traveller 2300. There's Serenity as well. Even Star Wars had a lot of common ground with Traveller: the whole climax of the movie is a military mission. I haven't seen the new Battlestar Galactica series but it meets some of the theme (probably its too character-based instead of military mission based). Stargate SG-1 was fairly damn Traveller-y too. Set Saving Private Ryan in space -- bam, you've got Traveller.

Star Trek (especially later), on the other hand, is so (especially later) D&D. A small group of characters sort of amble about in poorly defined circumstances with magical devices (and pointy ears!) getting in magical situations, undergoing magical transformations, fleshing out their backgrounds and interacting with recurring, super-powerful NPCs. They never quite have to do anything but assert their personalities or built-in character powers to escape whatever random peril they've blundered into this time in their vague pursuit of this or that. There's also something very superheroic about it, and something of Alice in Wonderland.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that the military adventure stamp of Traveller is very apparent to me, and this is more of a theme than a setting, and that the theme is actually pretty popular in and out of SF. Certainly I think it might have inspired more of what Traveller is about than Piper's descriptions of a starry sky.

Now if we're just going to talk about the setting (and discard this nonsense about 'hard gritty noir' and missions and so forth) -- yeah, Traveller is showing its age, and really is part of a whole sci-fi type of universe that is fading away, perhaps...
 
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