Is it just me? Ship Deck Plans

[atpollard]

The issue wasn’t strictly the 1.5 meter passages. Rather the issue is the granularity of a 1.5 meter module. For example, when locating a chair (like a seat on a passenger shuttle) it is also fitted to a 1.5 meter module with 1 chair per square. That is a LOT of space for just one chair. On the other hand, rooms are either 2 squares long, 3 squares long or 4 squares long. That inflates the size of each space and all of those little extras add up.

 

[GypsyComet]

I've never seen 1.5 m wide corridors as especially excessive, so I'm not bothered by it.

Agreed. If the Enterprise has wide corridors (to allow for the big camera rigs, of course) then why can't we?

Notably, TNE used a 2m floor grid (in which one square and a slightly larger deck-to-deck separation equals one dton) and those plans do go "off grid" far more often.

 

[aramis]

Many subs and some ships have narrow corridors; some side accessways pretty much are designed for slide sideways (as low as (IIRC) 40 or 50 cm).

 

[McPerth]

For example, when locating a chair (like a seat on a passenger shuttle) it is also fitted to a 1.5 meter module with 1 chair per square. That is a LOT of space for just one chair.

It's to keep social distance and avoid transmiting CoViD (sorry, I could not refrain myself, as 1.5 m is the advised social distancing)

On the other hand, rooms are either 2 squares long, 3 squares long or 4 squares long. That inflates the size of each space and all of those little extras add up.

This room size is about 3 dT. As a stateroom is 4 dT, this, plus 2 more squares per stateroom in coridors and lounges make it consistent at least...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This room size is about 3 dT. As a stateroom is 4 dT, this, plus 2 more squares per stateroom in coridors and lounges make it consistent at least...

The standard is supposed to be 2 Dt:

Staterooms require four tons at a cost of Cr500,OOO per stateroom. Staterooms actually average about two tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

2 dTons is About the size of a 3rd class cabin on Titanic (Which slept 4!).

 

[atpollard]

2 dTons is a small bedroom or a U-Haul rental truck.
6 dTons is a small Hotel Room (Ramada Inn or Motel 6).

... how would you like to be locked in there for a week except to visit the cafeteria for meals?

The problem is the paradigm of ship design. As mentioned, a 2 dTon room could sleep 4 ... which would leave 14 dTons (28 grid squares) free for middle passage common areas/amenities for those 4 passengers.


Scarecrow once commented that he just used the design rules to define the basics like how many crew stations the ship needed and how many passenger beds it needed and simply allocated the space any way that felt right to him. I think that I agree. Occupied space, engineering and fuel should all be about the right ratio ... but how you allocate the occupied space is where the character of the design comes in. (Obviously, you might need to add other big groups like “cargo” if the ship has significant volume dedicated to some special function). Counting out exactly 40 squares for the “bridge” is contraproductive.

 

[atpollard]

Another problem with deckplans is they don’t really fit within the hull and they could really use a vertical section through the ship to start thinking about spaces as being more interesting than thin, flat plates that sort of stack.

 

[whartung]

Agreed. If the Enterprise has wide corridors (to allow for the big camera rigs, of course) then why can't we?

Many subs and some ships have narrow corridors; some side accessways pretty much are designed for slide sideways (as low as (IIRC) 40 or 50 cm).

What few Navy ships I've been on, I wouldn't consider any of them "roomy". Narrow corridors, low ceilings. Ships are expensive. Density is important. If all the rooms are "big enough", why waste the space on a wider corridor? Why spend all that money on extra, well, everything.

More air, more power, more space, more metal.

Train car corridors are 2 ft wide, small (single wide) mobile homes are about 30". Take a look at Cruise Ship deck plans sometime.

Not everyone has the wealth of the Federation to make extra big ships.

 

[Condottiere]

There would be a difference in required volumes for a spaceship to be operated by Hobbits, one that is automated, and one for antsy centaurs.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Another problem with deckplans is they don’t really fit within the hull and they could really use a vertical section through the ship to start thinking about spaces as being more interesting than thin, flat plates that sort of stack.

Agreed (see both sets of deckplans I've posted...)

As Condottiere recently noted in another thread, a lot of this is just dungeon mapping (that is, it's not primarily a spaceship naval architecture simulation). And GypsyComet noted that some designs appear to specifically be designed for interesting firefights rather than functional plausibility.

The ones I did up were trying to be a bit more than that, and I like to believe I mostly succeeded.

 

[BlackBat242]

Also note that the CT 2 square high decks comes out to 3m - which is 9.84' (9' 10").

Now note that the "standard" ceiling height for residential buildings in the 1970s (when CT was written) was 7' 9" (2.36m) - leaving 2' 1" (.635m) for the inter-deck space containing structural members, plumbing, wiring, ducting, assorted equipment (heating/cooling etc), and grav plates.

 

[Condottiere]

And how does that work in very high ceilinged holds and hangars?

Do you feel lighter or float above three metres?

 

[atpollard]

And how does that work in very high ceilinged holds and hangars?

Do you feel lighter or float above three metres?

That’s where the color text let’s the designer have fun.

• 1st Generation Plates (TL 9): only function at 3 meters, so taller spaces are in Zero G
• 2nd Generation Plates (TL 12): At 3 meters create a uniform 1 G field; at 6 meters, your feet are at 1G and your head is at 0.5G creating a disorienting feeling that can cause nausea.
• 3rd Generation Plates (TL 15): Create a uniform 1G field at any height.

 

[agorski]

There would be a difference in required volumes for a spaceship to be operated by Hobbits, one that is automated, and one for antsy centaurs.

For an autonomous ship I would have narrow passageways for access by a maintenance bot designed to traverse them.

 

[Timerover51]

That’s where the color text let’s the designer have fun.

• 1st Generation Plates (TL 9): only function at 3 meters, so taller spaces are in Zero G
• 2nd Generation Plates (TL 12): At 3 meters create a uniform 1 G field; at 6 meters, your feet are at 1G and your head is at 0.5G creating a disorienting feeling that can cause nausea.
• 3rd Generation Plates (TL 15): Create a uniform 1G field at any height.

Your example makes no sense. Are you saying that a difference of 1 millimeter means a difference of 1G and Zero-G? That is an incredibly sharp gravity gradient, and if in the rules as written, I will simply ignore.

 

[atpollard]

Your example makes no sense. Are you saying that a difference of 1 millimeter means a difference of 1G and Zero-G? That is an incredibly sharp gravity gradient, and if in the rules as written, I will simply ignore.

No, that is not what I am saying.

First, this was not the RULES AT WRITTEN, this was just a quick and dirty IMTU Technology progression.

For the FIRST GENERATION of artificial gravity, the system required two plates spaced up to 3 meters apart to generate a 1G pseudo-gravity field between the plates. Attempting to place the plates further than 3 meters apart renders the plates incapable of generating a field across the gap. So any cargo hold with a 6 meter ceiling would have no artificial gravity installed because the existing technology could not generate a field across that distance (so it would not function even if you installed one).

For the SECOND GENERATION of artificial gravity, the plates are able to generate a 1 G field for up to 3 meters and a gradient between the plates for distances greater than 3 meters. So a 3 meter tall room with SECOND GENERATION plates would generate a 1G field from floor to ceiling. A cargo hold with a 6 meter ceiling would generate a variable field that was 1G at the floor, 0.5 G at 3 meters and 0G at the ceiling.

For the THIRD GENERATION of artificial gravity, the technical problem of generating a field beyond 3 meter plate separation was solved.

 

[mike wightman]

Where are you getting that from? Or is it a house rule?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I am disheartened.
Every Deck Plan I have looked at so far (and I am sure there are many I have not looked at), even in official Traveller products, is in gross violation of the Rules as Written.
Just a few minutes ago I was looking at the deck plans provided by someone (not sure who) for the Marava Class 200 ton Far Trader. If one actually counts the squares (and divides by two) it turns out to be a 256 ton ship.
Mongoose does not seem to be as bad. The Free Trader in the Core Rulebook, if one counts the squares (and divides by two) it turns out to be a 230 ton ship. It is rather difficult to count the squares due to large areas being colored in, so that tonnage is probably not accurate, but none the less is very likely to be larger than it should be.
I don't think I've ever seen a Deck Plan that comes anywhere near the 10% error allowed by the CT rules, and I've been playing Traveller since 1980. Don't get me started on the idiocy of the 100 ton Scout ship deck plans.
Mongoose rules don't even mention an error margin at all.
Why even have rules if every one (including FFE) just ignores them?
Well, does anyone agree, or is there something about Deck Plans that I have completely misunderstood for all these decades?

A square just means that a Traveller can walk/crawl through that area. There's no guarantee they can stand in a square always (for good reason).

 

[atpollard]

Where are you getting that from? Or is it a house rule?

Just a suggestion for one possible House Rule.
The whole point is that examples of unexplained technology that fall outside of the design RULES AS WRITTEN are areas where the Referee is free to add the local color that makes a ship or campaign unique.

You are free to say that artificial gravity works perfectly with no restrictions from the moment it is invented and at all tech levels, or you can decide that it works one way on some ships and another way on other ships.