Is Traveller Dead?

[DaveChase]

...
EDIT: And I'm pretty sure Marc and his "circle" has more than a clue. Your insult is not appreciated.

IMO, when it comes to marketing, I believe that they are not completely aware of what the market trends, target audience and current state of retail store's needs are. Or (shrug) they don't know how to read them.

They might be very good at developing games and concepts, but the level of quality when presenting (marketing) or selling is not any where as close to many other current game companies.

So, it would appear to most when comparing to what is out and what is selling (by whom) that they are not on an equal footing.

HG_B's point (from the way I read it) is that Far Future Enterprises is not succeeding in what he desires, which is a larger pool of Traveller players, and it does not appear to him that they are attempting to increase the numbers of new players or exposure to Traveller.

Mongoose is doing some of this but HG_B was only referring to Marc and company.

Yes, I probably just stepped into it again, but, I have some solid experience and knowledge of game marketing and development.
My opinion does not count any more than any others, but I am using obvious facts and sources to base my opinion on.

Dave Chase

 

[far-trader]

Yes, I probably just stepped into it again...

Dave Chase

Not at all, from here anyway, you presented the points fairly without insult. I don't even totally disagree, more could perhaps be done, but is the cost benefit worth it?

And Marc and his "circle" has made some good efforts imo. This site for one; FFE, facebook and twitter for a few more. T20 and Mongoose licenses raised some interest. The PDF CDROMS come to mind. As do some third parties. Yet it all still feels stuck in the past, limited to P&P, and passed over for lack of a method to reach the connected generation. I don't know that it's a solvable problem though.

Maybe I snapped harshly at the insult HG_B, but really, does politeness take that much more effort?

 

[HG_B]

It was just a joke HG_B

I think we all get the idea that some new marketing ideas might be good. I'm sure it's not as simple as taking out an advert though. And for pen and paper RPGs, geeks or no, I'm not sure any potential pool of players is an actual market any longer. Certainly not any who have access to computers/consoles and a high speed connection.

P&P FtoF RPGs are in fact a dying form imo. Unless and until they can be updated to take full advantage of the internet connected graphic interplay out-of-the-box they won't grow or attract many new gamers.

You hit it on the head there. There is one area of the product that has been neglected for at LEAST since MT. Computer aspect like you say. Why don't the newer versions come with even simple tools like spreadsheets, databases, etc? I've always (well since MT days) found it quite odd that a game about future tech didn't even try to use any as game aids. Even D&D has gone computer/web/cloud.


How much would it cost to include OpenOffice spreadsheets for ship/vehicle & character design? Almost nothing. How many talented fans might be able to design a networked visual ship combat system for a "piece of the action"?

I don't know either but, can't hurt for the games owners to put it out there. Right?

I love the game it hurts to see the player/customer base dwindle. Far-trader, view my previous post with that in mind...

 

[far-trader]

...I love the game it hurts to see the player/customer base dwindle. Far-trader, view my previous post with that in mind...

Understood. It's also why I bit on the "clueless" remark. Let's count our later remarks as apologies all around and move on

 

[HG_B]

Understood. It's also why I bit on the "clueless" remark. Let's count our later remarks as apologies all around and move on

Agreed.

I just wish Marc & Co. would at least consider modernizing the game.

P&P RPGs aren't dead. In the 90's I taught my boys (who were addicted to computer game consoles when I let 'em) Trav & D&D. They brought their friends and would play either one over the computer games if they were able. (including the friends) There IS something about imagination being better than CGI. You just have to hook them...

 

[Gray Lensman]

Agreed.

I just wish Marc & Co. would at least consider modernizing the game.

P&P RPGs aren't dead. In the 90's I taught my boys (who were addicted to computer game consoles when I let 'em) Trav & D&D. They brought their friends and would play either one over the computer games if they were able. (including the friends) There IS something about imagination being better than CGI. You just have to hook them...

Just the opposite of my experience, back in '04 I tried to interest my (EX) stepson in the old Trade Wars 2002 game, took two sessions for him to go running back to WOW. Tried several P&P rpgs (all different genres), same deal no dice )pun intended(.

[rant]I know I am an old man at 52, I really believe part of the problem is younger generations do not have the discipline/patience to do P&P RPGs. They want satisfaction NOW. Try getting Mongoose to do a survey about the demographics of all their supposed sales.[/rant]

 

[giant.robot]

[rant]I know I am an old man at 52, I really believe part of the problem is younger generations do not have the discipline/patience to do P&P RPGs. They want satisfaction NOW. Try getting Mongoose to do a survey about the demographics of all their supposed sales.[/rant]

You're writing off way too many people with your rant there. Suggesting that you magically have the patience and discipline to handle P&P RPGs while younger generations do not is short sighted and frankly insulting. That sort of attitude is not going to attract anyone to the hobby. The suggestion that video games don't require patience and discipline shows how out of touch you are with video games and the people that play them rather than demonstrate that those people couldn't enjoy your hobby.

P&P RPGs need more than most hobbies to evolve with the times. D&D started off as miniature wargame rules with fantasy elements thrown in. That game might have worked well with the subset of people that enjoyed miniatures wargaming and was novel in 1976. In 2010 that idea is no longer novel and you wouldn't get too far making that same game today. When Traveller first came out Apollo was fresh in people's minds, Skylab was new and exciting, and Star Wars and Close Encounters were wowing people in theaters. In the 30 some years since a ton of sci-fi media has been added to the cultural zeitgeist, entirely besides advancements in real world technology and role playing game mechanics. Traveller of the late 70s and early 80s simply won't be as appealing today as it was then. Anyone wanting new players to buy Traveller material needs to realize and respond to that.

Traveller hasn't evolved as much with the times. There's multiple semi-compatible versions with Mongoose's being the most "modern". The books themselves, even Mongoose's, have extremely poor organization. The table of contents is too sparse and there's no indexes. The tables in the books are all over the place with no easy way to find where they are and the rules in different books awkwardly supersede other books. For someone like me picking up these books after playing lots of other P&P RPGs with much more cohesive rules and better organization it's a really jarring difference. Just making sense of some of the rules (contrary as they are to so many other RPGs) has been difficult thanks to the sloppy organization. I've been able to get by because I've been buying the PDF copies of the Mongoose books through DriveThruRPG so I can easily search through the books.

After getting the Mongoose books and reading these boards I decided to pick up the CT, MT, and TNE books so I could get a better idea about the OTU for my games. Thankfully FFE has searchable PDF copies for sale. Unfortunately the first time I went to the site I thought it was some defunct fan page because it looked like it hadn't been updated in years. I was skeptical about buying the CDs through PayPal because I wasn't sure my money wouldn't fall into a black hole somewhere. Luckily the site is still active and I did get all my CDs and have been pouring over the PDFs on my iPad. I still can't find anywhere selling Traveller miniatures and the only good artwork seems to be fan-made stuff (a lot of it on this site).

For me it's easy to see all the places where Traveller completely falls down on a marketing front. I had to go hunting to find information about it, to buy the material, and simply find a place to discuss it (here). The process I went through is completely unfriendly and unintuitive and only because I really wanted to get back into Traveller was I inspired to keep looking for what I wanted. Someone looking for a good sci-fi RPG but not willing to invest the time and effort that I did will easily pass Traveller by if they hadn't heard of it before.

 

[aramis]

Having been in my alma matter in the last two years, and having graduated in 1987... there are MORE kids playing RPGs in the halls at lunch than there were when I went there.

Get a freaking clue, guys... YOU ARE NOT SEEING the new blood.

Sales of RPG's overall are not down, just divided across more systems than ever.

My local B&N had 4 RPGs on the shelf Saturday last: MGT, D&D4E, Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, plus supplements for all the above and for Rogue Trader. A week before they had different supplements for many.

The hobby has already been taken up by a new generation, and they still want P&P games. What they don't seem to be doing is communicating at all with the grognards. Of course, to listen to the bunch of you, were I 18 again, I'd look elsewhere, too, as so much negativity is expressed in this thread....

 

[far-trader]

Having been in my alma matter in the last two years, and having graduated in 1987... there are MORE kids playing RPGs in the halls at lunch than there were when I went there.

Get a freaking clue, guys... YOU ARE NOT SEEING the new blood.

Or is it possible there are differences in different areas?

From what I've overheard at my nieces' schools and from their guy friends, and most recently a younger male cousin, none of them have any interest in P&P RPGs. They are all into CoD and such FPS on consoles or PCs.

From what I've seen at my not-so-local game stores over the years P&P RPGs are dying, as they age and collect dust unsold on ever shrinking shelves given over to the latest trends in CCG and such.

From my last visits (some time ago mind, but when P&P RPGs were still doing well, pre-CCG invasion) to the various book store chains, P&P RPGs were nonexistent to a very few, very random, selections oddly placed on shelves well out of the regular traffic. You had to physically search, and staff were usually clueless. One store had a couple supplements but no core books.

I'd be curious to know Mongoose's demographic too. As I'd have liked to know T20's in it's day. Is it largely nostalgic grognards grasping at any lifeline to idealized memories? Or is there a genuinely significant flush of new blood?

 

[DaveChase]

...
The hobby has already been taken up by a new generation, and they still want P&P games. What they don't seem to be doing is communicating at all with the grognards. Of course, to listen to the bunch of you, were I 18 again, I'd look elsewhere, too, as so much negativity is expressed in this thread....

:lol:

I have to bow and concur with this statement.

Or is it possible there are differences in different areas?

...

I'd be curious to know Mongoose's demographic too. As I'd have liked to know T20's in it's day. Is it largely nostalgic grognards grasping at any lifeline to idealized memories? Or is there a genuinely significant flush of new blood?

Unless it is a super hot game with media shows to aid it, different games will have stronger presence in different areas.

As for getting solid information from the game companies, I kind of doubt it.
Some of them don't truly know how to collect solid, real data as to what game (or their games) are being played in comparison to other games.

Store owners can give you a much better picture but the downfall of this data, is owner making a dollar/margin.
A game that does not require a lot of input (work) and makes the store money will always be pushed/promoted more than other games, even if the money maker game is a poor game (poor as in written, mechanics, or other.)

Dave Chase

 

[aramis]

Or is it possible there are differences in different areas?

It's possible, but I've heard the same from educators throughout the world. RPG's are a niche, but one that many urban areas have a stable presence. It's just that, outside organized clubs, the generations are not mixing.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Looking at the shops around here in Germany they are dying by the score. And the regions I am talking about are heavily populated with lots of universities etc. and have/had a lot of RPG activities.

I have seen Hannover take the nosedive from three well-stocked shops in the early 1990s to none in 2010, Osnabrücks shop is doing mainly casual games, the sole survivor (from three) in Duesseldorf is mostly comics and CGC, Duisburg has no shops left, Krefeld a single one with mostly casuals and comics (Down from a shop with mostly RPG and a smaller mixed shop), Essen has one shop left that is mainly a mail order business and survives mostly on wargamers and model builders, same for Cologne

The same trend is in conventions. Many old conventions died out and others are a mere shadow of their former self. I remember when the 100-400 visitors comment for POGO or Morpheus was "at least 200+staff at any given time" and not "100 over the whole convention, counting the staff and any guy over 100kg twice". The only new convention (The RPC) has pen and paper as a minor side show and is mostly computer games (That's why it is in Cologne now)

And the clubs show the same. GFR looses local chapters and some of those that exist are mere shells only there for the eV (and easy access to public rooms). Since the clubs organized most conventions, many are dead now. Within the clubs membership numbers are down. Back in the late 1990s the question was "will I find the SPACE to run a game". Today it's "Will I find players". And most clubs are full of elder gamers with few younger ones coming up. The goth scene sheds some of it's more extrem members towards the White Poodle systems but those typically continue drifting into LARPS.

And elder player running complex, character heavy games don't attract younger players. We where no better when we startet. Classic action-based dungeon crawls and orc bashing. Fast, quick games with little character depth for starters. Those who stayed grew up, sometimes too much. Ten years ago many rounds felt like a Spillane or Hammet. Today many feel like Tolstoi or Dostojewski

Add in that SciFi/Technical RPG where always a small segment and most of that has been captured by MagesRUs (formerly Shadowrun) and Traveller has some problems

 

[aramis]

Looking at the shops around here in Germany they are dying by the score. And the regions I am talking about are heavily populated with lots of universities etc. and have/had a lot of RPG activities.

shops ≠ gamers.

Shops are dying less because of a decline in gaming, but because centralized internet stores are better able to provide product at a lower price and still at a higher profit. Plus, in a recession (like the one the US is in, and much of Europe, too, by many accounts), games purchases are reduced.

Plus the move of some games into big-box stores' inventories (In the US: D&D Redbox @ Wal*mart and Target; D&D 4E, MGT, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch at B&N and Borders)... It's a move back to the mode I remember from the early 1980's. Buying some games at bookstores, and the rest by mail-order.

And it's not like the RPGers I know don't play videogames, either... I'm a dozen hours into Final Fantasy: 4 heroes of light. (Which I got saturday...)

 

[far-trader]

...And elder player running complex, character heavy games don't attract younger players. We where no better when we startet. Classic action-based dungeon crawls and orc bashing. Fast, quick games with little character depth for starters. Those who stayed grew up, sometimes too much. Ten years ago many rounds felt like a Spillane or Hammet. Today many feel like Tolstoi or Dostojewski

This strikes a chord. It might even explain why a site like this might not appeal to new players. Or any site likely to be set up for Traveller for that matter. They really don't, and can't, do much to get new young players to strike out on their own and create or just have fun. Quite the opposite by default, and it's apparent in the questions asked so often... "How should this be done?" The natural reaction is to "help" by imparting our old ways. The better answer, against decent human nature, might be "Figure it out for yourself." I can just imagine how well that would go over though.

When our group started playing RPGs we were introduced and exposed to it through older players, but we soon went our own way. We did the whole create our own rules and adventures, we had fun, and mostly it was about fast play and not so much role play as roll play. Lots of hack-n-slash in D&D and lots of gun-n-run in other games like Traveller. Fun times. We only slowly matured into the role play and character game of it all. A different fun.

We had no resources to go to for answers. We pretty much had to make it up ourselves. Including adventures and gear in the early days before modules and supplements. Is this independence lacking in today's young gamers? Largely because there is so much immediate feedback and ready materials? Do they even have that introductory gateway of elders? Or do they discover the hobby solely through surfing the web or adverts?

I have a hard time imagining any of our group getting into RPGs if we'd been left entirely on our own when we were younger. If I recall correctly one friend had bought (or got) D&D (on spec) before the rest of us started playing and we never knew about it until after. Maybe he wasn't sure how to begin. Before that (and somewhat after, it was card games and board games, chess, etc. ). Another bought into the LBBs when they came out, probably because we had tried and started D&D. And we found another new RPG diversion. Would he have given those plain looking books a second glance if he'd had no prior exposure? I don't imagine so.

All just commentary, I don't see an easy solution.

 

[NW_Paul]

Most of the newer games seem to be trying to emulate the video game feel to me. This is really evident in the D&D 3.0/3.5 combat w/ both feats & spell effects. I this is really one of the things that bugs me about most of the new crop of RPG'rs. If I want to play a video game, I'll plug in my Playstation...

 

[Enoff]

But I love this game, and like to think about it.

I think the limiting factor is the set universe. Not necessarily Star Wars but I would like to see it adapted to Asimov's Foundation or H. Beam Piper's universe.

The Traveller universe got very dogmatic with too many rule re-writes. Who cares what different ways you calculate combat when you have no background or missions?

 

[mbrinkhues]

shops ≠ gamers.

Shops are dying less because of a decline in gaming, but because centralized internet stores are better able to provide product at a lower price and still at a higher profit. Plus, in a recession (like the one the US is in, and much of Europe, too, by many accounts), games purchases are reduced.

Plus the move of some games into big-box stores' inventories (In the US: D&D Redbox @ Wal*mart and Target; D&D 4E, MGT, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch at B&N and Borders)... It's a move back to the mode I remember from the early 1980's. Buying some games at bookstores, and the rest by mail-order.

And it's not like the RPGers I know don't play videogames, either... I'm a dozen hours into Final Fantasy: 4 heroes of light. (Which I got saturday...)

That's why I also adressed conventions that are dying or seriously shrinking and clubs that do the same. Conventions that had to close the doors due to security restrictions in the late 1990s (Pogo, Morpheus) barely reach the 3 digit count over the complete weekend these days. From six conventions in the region two survived and one of those is a con sponsored "play our games only" event these days (Ratcon) and the other changed from a overcrowded RPG only con to a card/tabetop con with some RPG (Morpheus, also reduced to 1/year from 2/year) And those are event in university cities so demographics get regular refreshes

Same for clubs. Out of eight meets there are four left. And two of them rarely exceed 10 players on a friday/saturday evening (In the 1990s we reached 20-30 on Wednesdays), one is mostly casual/tabletop and the fourth is "fixed groups, come back in 3 month if you want to play"

Besides the shops here in germany died before the recession and before the Internet got big. Most around here where dead between 2000 and 2005 and germany was slow to go Internet orders and PDF. And looking at online shops the main cash cow seems to be wargames and cards since that is what fills the main pages when you open the shops.

 

[giant.robot]

Most of the newer games seem to be trying to emulate the video game feel to me. This is really evident in the D&D 3.0/3.5 combat w/ both feats & spell effects. I this is really one of the things that bugs me about most of the new crop of RPG'rs. If I want to play a video game, I'll plug in my Playstation...

If by "most newer games" you're talking about a game that was released a decade ago I wonder how many games you have seriously looked at besides Traveller in that time. The D20 system doesn't play or feel at all like a video game. The 3E D&D rules streamlined a lot of what was in the AD&D rules and the various player option books. It's only like a video game in that the mechanics are all internally consistent (barring errors). Inconsistent and confusing rules do not make a game system fun, they make it a pain in the butt. Outside of D&D a lot of rule systems that have appeared recently are nothing at all like video games.

I agree with aramis regarding shops and conventions. They're not a good measure of the proliferation of the P&P RPG hobby. Game stores go out of business for lots of reasons, the game stores I started gaming at in the early 90s went out of business way before Amazon existed or there was a Borders or B&N within four zip codes. Conventions in general are in decline as their logistical costs have increase significantly and their primary purpose (advertising products) is done way cheaper with a website and a few AdSense words.

Complaining about them darn vidja games or CCGs or whatever boogeyman you don't like as the reason Traveller isn't getting new players doesn't do any good. Traveller needs to evolve or else no one will bother with it once you folks stop playing. It's an interesting system with a really rich mythos but new players aren't going to pick it up if they don't know about it and won't stick with it if it's difficult to get started playing.

 

[aramis]

Germany has SO many Cons, that it's no surprise, Michael. 4 years ago, someone posted on BGG that there was at least one gaming convention per week in Germany drawing 100+ people. While I think he was exaggerating, I don't think by more than a factor of 3 or so...

Perhaps what you are seeing is (as a German BGGer posited) a correction to a sustainable level, rather than indication of any loss of players. After all, German FLGS seem to be doing all right in board game sales... And German Culture is highly favorable to games of all stripes, except gambling.

The German educators I've seen post on BGG and RPGG indicate that there's no loss of interest in board, card, and roleplay games, just in ability to buy them.

 

[Icosahedron]

I think Giant Robot and MBrinkues both have valid points.

The traditional venues, points of sale, and opportunities to meet FtoF are in decline world wide, and I'm not sure that the Traveller marketeers (being oldies like us) are in the best position to take advantage of the changing situation. The link with Mongoose has definitely helped to address this, but more could be done; it may be too little, too late.

If the core ownership (FFE) isn't in a position to drive the market (and I suspect for one reason or another it isn't) the only option is to open up to people who can, but of course that dilutes the 'purity' of the product (eg all the gripes about Mongoose DreddTrav, hyperdrives, etc.)

One thing is certain: Traveller-as-was is not going to retain its market share - the market is too big and too different. It's not a question of whether the cake is growing or shrinking, the problem is that Traveller's slice has been dwindling for years/decades, because Traveller is stuck in the mud.

Though I hate to say it, the problem may be Mr Miller himself. And before the lynch mob comes out, I sympathise with the guy, because in the same situation, I probably wouldn't want my brainchild torn apart and reassembled by a bunch of kids who weren't even born when Traveller came out, but...

As others have stated upthread, There isn't any official software to take the grind out of designing things, there are no longer any associated figurines, there are no official VTT maps, deckplans, character icons, etc, or tools for creating your own. The whole project is rooted in the seventies and the modern world is passing it by.
People on other threads here have been discussing 3D models, but it's all fan-based stuff done in people's spare time with no official support. The market is well into 3D computer art/gaming and Traveller hasn't even branched into 2D computer art/gaming yet! (apart from those two MT games from wayback when).

Look at Andrew's great movie shorts. Imagine what it could do for Traveller sales if those (and longer ones, by more varied artists) were played at conventions/gamestores. Hell, AFAIK they're not even shown on the FFE website - someone above commented on the state of the website. Buy your local gamestore one of these newfangled digital photoframes, fill it with 3D goodies and get them to hang it on the Traveller shelf...

As an oldie myself, my ideas are probably way behind the cutting edge, but is FFE even further behind?