Jack-O-Trades and Leader skills -- useful or useless?

[Sifu Blackirish]

I have had my opinion changed on the use of these skills. I liked the MT interpretation, which gives a free retry per level of skill. I have read other posts here, which state that more than one level of JOT is a waste.

I looked over some of my characters with multiple JOT levels and rewrote them. They are much more rounded and I thought my efforts were successful. Then I stumbled upon this...

From DA 1 Annic Nova: and of course I can't fibd what I'm looking for...

Repair TL A+, electronic- 2+, jot-2; mechanical-2, jot-2

Now I am confused.

 

[flykiller]

jack of all trades "skill" really has no particular function, especially if "zero level" skills are utilized. you can come up with rules to account for and accomodate it, but that's about as far as it goes.

leader has little role in a small group of pc's whose primary interface with the outside world is via exchange of gunfire. but if your players are trying to run a ship large enough to be called a "place" then it has great utility.

 

[aramis]

In MT, it's highly useful, but it doesn't provide Zero-levels.
In MGT, it's only useful to level 3. (And not allowed to be learned past that.)

In CT, it's utility is almost entirely up to the ref. The refs I was a player under made extensive use of level 0's and still had it be useful... by allowing it to modify skill rolls for a variety of skills even when skilled in them. For example, +JOAT on Vacc Suit donning, where Vacc Suit is +2 per level, so it's not as good.

Others made it just a means of avoiding the unskilled penalty...

One simply turned it into a cascade: Any other skill. (He hated it.)

 

[kilemall]

JOAT reminds me of this-

YouTube: The Most Interesting Man In The World Dos Equis Commercials Compilation

There was also a scifi character, in F&SF I think, that would do all sorts of JOATie things, since his job was to write self-help books he had learned how to do everything he needed to in the story.

And of course.

MacGyver.

 

[flykiller]

JOAT reminds me of this-

(laugh) babe magnet 2.

MacGyver.

well it helps to have a sympathetic screenwriter/ref. but as a "skill" it has no basis. one intuitively understands and easily implements "mechanic" or "leader", but joat is more accomodated than implemented.

 

[kilemall]

(laugh) babe magnet 2.



well it helps to have a sympathetic screenwriter/ref. but as a "skill" it has no basis. one intuitively understands and easily implements "mechanic" or "leader", but joat is more accomodated than implemented.

Hmm, I take the skill as described in LBB1 at face value- a Renaissance Man that has a wide range of knowledge and experiences, quirky ability to do surprising things or get out of a disaster while avoiding unskilled risk.

Shouldn't be a superpower, but shouldn't be nothing either.

Without getting into my specific take, a simple way to handle it along my line of thinking is to do a 'knowledge check' with JOAT skill and INT or EDU as base stat. Assuming the character is successful, the character 'read about' or 'saw in a tribal ritual' and avoids the unskilled mod and maybe gets some bonuses for the real roll, without a direct 1:1 skill advantage.

<Shrug> JOAT -2 works too.

 

[creativehum]

It depends on the edition, I suppose, but in Classic Traveller, both JoT and Leader are useful in many ways. If used properly, they will also facilitate great moments of roleplaying.

I'm speaking here, by the way, of the rules as written and in the context of the kind of play meant to be used for the rules. How people remember the rules or half-interprets the rules is something else entirely.

 

[Whipsnade]

As written in CT, J-o-T is a very helpful skill - the key being as written:

This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee

(Creativehum is wise to remind us that how people remember or interpret a rule is very often something else entirely.)

The description of J-o-T presents a fairly detailed use of the skill. A medical crisis occurs during a wilderness expedition on a backwater world. A character could possibly use J-o-T in place of Medic if the referee also considers "... appropriate personal characteristics (intelligence, education), availability of equipment (drugs, medical instruments), and other factors (weather, shelter, the specific situation)."

J-o-T isn't automatic like the skill level 0 all player characters are presumed to have in all weapons. J-o-T is situational. J-o-T is discretionary. J-o-T isn't a get of jail free card. J-o-T is meant to be "role-d" and not "rolled"

I think we often forget how "small" and "bare bones" CT is for all the topics it manages to cover. There are three books of 48 pages each and yet there's chargen, worldgen, ship combat, personal combat, ship construction, careers, animal gen, psionics, trade, drugs, and many things I've left out. There isn't a lot of room for lists and lists of things.

Look at the equipment actually listed. There isn't that much considering the scope of the game. There is, however, the one credit to one 1977 USD "exchange rate" so a referee can price any items that aren't listed. J-o-T is that currency equivalent for skills.

There are what? Maybe 25 skills listed? J-o-T "expands" the skill list without listing dozens and dozens other skills. Compare and contrast CT's skills list with MT's list. That's what a "complete" list looks like and there was no room for anything like that in the First Three LBBs.

As written in CT, additional levels of J-o-T are seemingly worthless. As a referee, I gave a variety of mulligans to players who rolled it twice. Most of the time, they could roll again on the same or another table. Sometimes, I let them choose another skill. Still other times, I let them "improve" a 0 level skill to 1.

MT's rewrite of J-o-T as a free re-roll is indicative of RPG evolution during the time. J-o-T changed from a discretionary, role-played, attribute into an automatic, roll played, benefit. Neither is better than the other. Both are different, however, and additional levels of J-o-T in MT are worthwhile.

As for Leader skill, it has it's place. It's vitally necessary in some games and unneeded in others. Gambling isn't used in every game either, nor is Forward Observer, Bribery, Forgery, and even Blade Combat. I saw Gambling used most often in chargen on the Cash Table rather than in actual sessions.

Leader help with NPCs, especially large numbers of NPCs. Leader can also be used on the Reaction table, again at the referee's discretion.

 

[creativehum]

I agree with all S4 had to offer.

I would suggest that there is another way of looking at multiple expertise levels of JoT.

It is true that the CT rules state "Jack of all trades can be considered to confer skill level4 in every other skill (but never level-1)." (1981)

So, I can see the reasoning that JoT beyond 1 is "useless." But the rules don't state this. Another interpretation might be that the character with JoT-2 or -3 has a wider latitude in which situations he might be able to have effect. As the text states, "The individual is proven capable of handling a wide variety of situations, and is resourceful in finding solutions and remedies." Thus, it is possible that higher levels of Jot make the character able to handle even wider variety of situations, and be even more resourceful in finding solutions and remedies.

***

As for the widening of the skill list through JoT... that is something I hadn't thought about but it is a very good point. It moves us, of course, beyond the skills listed. Will the Jack of all Trades be able to get a handle on a piece of ancient poetry needed to find the location of the ancient temple? Maybe!

But my own thoughts about skills in CT is that they are appropriately limited -- and not at all a matter of page count.

By having limits on the skill lists for the PCs, it is assumed (by the Players and the Referees) that there are plenty of things that PCs will have to do to solve problems or seize opportunities that they skills alone cannot handle.

For example, if they need to translate that poetry and no one can do it, then what?

As I noted in another thread, there is no expertise for "Read Language" or "Ancient Poetry" in Classic Traveller. This is great! This means that the bread crumb clue in front of them can't be solved with a blunt die roll. It means the Players need to make choices, take action, do things.

• They could see if there are any texts that are available to help them translate the language. (Probably not, as an easy translation guide would rob the poem of the exotic alien quality it is supposed to possess.)
• They could go to a university and work for several weeks in the library to sort out the clues. (A safe choice, but it will take time for both time and travel. We'd make a roll to see how long it took based off collective INT and EDU.)
• They could track down a linguist who has studied the language.
• They might have to track down the linguist who has been captured by their competitors. (Cool, adventure!)
• They could seek out a cult based on the traditions of the alien race and see if they could enlist the cult's help. (Maybe! There will be a price! What will the cult ask in return.)

The list could go on -- in part because I have no idea what the Players might come up with as a plan.

This is all part of the play culture of the mid-70s, where it was assumed the Players would have to come up with plans to solve problems, not simply have their Character make ability rolls to solve problems.

The question "But what about all the other skills?" got introduced in games like Runequest, and soon took hold as a basic design philosophy. But I have come to see this as not as interesting as the limited list of ability found in original D&D and original Traveller (I fully acknowledge that this is all a matter of personal taste, and in no way suggesting anyone is wrong for thinking otherwise.)

With the explosion of skill lists modules are written to take advantage of skills, to show off skills, to require skills. But for my money all of this dodges the fun of the games: The Players are presented with a problem that a simple Throw of the dice will not solve. Now what? For me, this is where the plans and shenanigans and adventure come from.

****

The point about Leadership affecting Reaction rolls from the Reaction Table in Book 3 that Whipsnade mentions is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I referred to the rules. The rules of CT are scattered, but interlocking.

With daily chances at Random Encounters and Legal Encounters, as well as weekly chances for Patron encounters, there will be a good chance for Reaction rolls. And that Leadership will come in handy in moving the results from Hostile to Neutral to Friendly.

 

[McPerth]

As for JOT, I stay in what I already said in several other discussions about it:

IMHO, already stated in other threads, the best use of JOT skill was in MT, whith the reroll capabilities according to your JOT skill. This does not give you a level 0 in all skills at JOT 3 as MgT does, allows you to have better chances also in those skills you already have and doesn't have a level limit in the usefulness of your skill (in MgT, JOT 3 or JOT 6 doesn't make much difference).

Instead of giving a -1 cummulative for each roll, the limits I used (I must state again I mostly played MT as a referee) were that if a mishap was rolled, you stopped rerolling, and all tasks so rerolled were hazardous. With those limits, I tried to reflect that unortodox solutions are always dangerous (yet they may as well save your day).

And, of course, I didn't allow JOT for all tasks, but that was difficult to rule out precisely, being mostly to referee's (so my) consideration on a case by case basis (one fact was true, though, never allowed to combat rolls).

As for leadership, I see it as mostly a military skill. The fact it will be useful or not would mostly depend on the kind of campaign you play. In a military campaign, it sure will, in a trading camapaign, less so, in a ninvestigative campaign, probably not much.

But this happens also for many skills. How many times have you used Fordward Observer, Cbt Engineering or Battledress (except as vacc suit, in the versions where it can be so used) skills if your campaign is not military focused?

Even Pilot or Navigation skills will be of little use if your characters don't own (or work in) a ship...

 

[flykiller]

a Renaissance Man that has a wide range of knowledge and experiences ... Shouldn't be a superpower

actually a "renaissance man" kind of IS a super power, the kind of man hired by kings to solve high-level problems. "wide range of knowledge and experiences" severely understates the concept - a concept which, by the way, is defined by its times. da Vinci was incredible for the knowledge level (and economic capability) of his times, but for all his intelligence would not be considered a "renaissance man" today because the knowledge level required to be merely relatively competent in any single subject matter such as medicine or engineering or philosophy or art would take all his time. this "level of competence" will get higher in the future.

As for the widening of the skill list through JoT... that is something I hadn't thought about but it is a very good point. It moves us, of course, beyond the skills listed.

... and that is a VAST undefined territory. joat becomes some kind of imperial warrant for skills.

J-o-T is discretionary. J-o-T isn't a get of jail free card. J-o-T is meant to be "role-d" and not "rolled"

don't you mean "referee-d"? 'cause if joat is limited only by referee fiat then the players will indeed see it as a "get out of jail free" card and push it for all it's worth.

 

[creativehum]

As for the widening of the skill list through JoT... that is something I hadn't thought about but it is a very good point. It moves us, of course, beyond the skills listed.

... and that is a VAST undefined territory. joat becomes some kind of imperial warrant for skills.

I see this matter as less dramatic, if only because the rules allow for the widening of skills on the part of all Player Characters, JoT or not.

If Player Characters are confronted with my example piece of poetry from above, then JoT or not, if one of them has a high INT or high EDU (or both), then a roll might be able to be made to see if information can be gleaned. (A lack of high EDU or INT would probably prevent a Throw from being made at all.)

That is, if one reads the text, its clear that expertise in a skill is one of several modifiers that can be made by Throws that are cobbled together by the Referee on the fly, with DMs built from expertise, characteristics, situation, tools, background/history of PC as established in play, and so on.

Seen in this light, JoT is simply one more possible modifier to be added into the rule under the Referee's final adjudication.

 

[flykiller]

a simple way to handle it along my line of thinking is to do a 'knowledge check' with JOAT skill and INT or EDU as base stat. Assuming the character is successful, the character 'read about' or 'saw in a tribal ritual' and avoids the unskilled mod and maybe gets some bonuses for the real roll

actually that seems pretty good.

 

[flykiller]

DMs built from expertise, characteristics, situation, tools, background/history of PC as established in play, and so on.

Seen in this light, JoT is simply one more possible modifier to be added into the rule under the Referee's final adjudication.

if joat is not expertise, characteristic, situation, tool, or background/history ... then what is it? a unitless constant? "you get a plus 1 on ... stuff"?

 

[creativehum]

if joat is not expertise, characteristic, situation, tool, or background/history ... then what is it? a unitless constant? "you get a plus 1 on ... stuff"?

Who said it wasn't background/history? Or wasn't expertise? What are you going on about?

The text says, "The individual is proven capable of handling a wide variety of situations, and is resourceful in finding solutions and remedies."

I'm baffled how this isn't clear to you.

As a Referee, of course, I'd need the player to explain exactly what it was that the PC was using to justify the Throw. That is, JoT is flexible in this regard. (As most DMs in CT are, really.)

It's exactly what you sort of quoted from kilemall:

Without getting into my specific take, a simple way to handle it along my line of thinking is to do a 'knowledge check' with JOAT skill and INT or EDU as base stat. Assuming the character is successful, the character 'read about' or 'saw in a tribal ritual' and avoids the unskilled mod and maybe gets some bonuses for the real roll, without a direct 1:1 skill advantage.

You seemed fine when he said almost exactly what I just wrote. I'm baffled as to how one seems to get a nod of approval from you, and the other leads you to some sort of sputtering confusion.

 

[flykiller]

well, let's just let the readers form their own opinions.

 

[McPerth]

if joat is not expertise, characteristic, situation, tool, or background/history ... then what is it? a unitless constant? "you get a plus 1 on ... stuff"?

In other games (as GURPS or even MgT2300AD) I'd use it (resourcefulness) as an advantage instead of as a skill, but that's not how Traveller Works.

 

[flykiller]

In other games (as GURPS or even MgT2300AD) I'd use it (resourcefulness) as an advantage instead of as a skill, but that's not how Traveller Works.

yeah ... joat has always struck me as an outlier, a concept rather than a component of the game.

 

[kilemall]

yeah ... joat has always struck me as an outlier, a concept rather than a component of the game.

Given that Scouts have the opportunity to earn oodles of it and is only slightly less certain then Pilot-1, I'd say it's a FIRM component of the game and part of the character of the careers, both it's presence or absence.

 

[McPerth]

Given that Scouts have the opportunity to earn oodles of it and is only slightly less certain then Pilot-1, I'd say it's a FIRM component of the game and part of the character of the careers, both it's presence or absence.

In fact, in LBB1, JOT is a more common skill than Pilot, as it's present in more careers and skill tables and does not require EDU 8+ to be rolled (Pilot appears only in advanced education tables, and only for Navy, Scouts and Merchants)