I know a few people running CT campaigns with the TNE rules and so far they've been unqualified sucesses. There are just a few irregularities regarding equipment to be adressed. I remember one group of long-time CT players that were distressed to learn their battle dress and grav belts had gained weight: this led to a lot of wry speculation on what battledress does when you're not looking, such as raiding the fridge and cannibalizing other unsuspecting suits. Another player sarcastically remarked, after reading FF&S, that everything in the "far future" of TNE was made out of metal and weighed a ton.
Jingoistic/ Self-righteous RC
- Thread starter Liam Devlin
- Start date
It's a time travel thing, I think.
I've explained it as being a result of Avery travelling back to prevent the "assassination" of Strephon, and thus his own birth!
How would you travel backwards in time? Well, I suspect that Yaskoydray's pocket universes (aka Tardises) might be the best answer. Since they are disconnected from normal spacetime, it might be possible to enter from one time and emerge into another.
Likewise, it might be possible to enter from one universe and exit into another...
<eek! sanity loss!>
Well, anyway, there are the plot devices. All we need now is the plot!
"Getting home" seems kind of lame. Preventing the Rebellion and/or the release of Virus is interesting, but difficult. Hmm...
Alan
It's a time travel thing, I think.
I've explained it as being a result of Avery travelling back to prevent the "assassination" of Strephon, and thus his own birth!
How would you travel backwards in time? Well, I suspect that Yaskoydray's pocket universes (aka Tardises) might be the best answer. Since they are disconnected from normal spacetime, it might be possible to enter from one time and emerge into another.
Likewise, it might be possible to enter from one universe and exit into another...
<eek! sanity loss!>
Well, anyway, there are the plot devices. All we need now is the plot!
"Getting home" seems kind of lame. Preventing the Rebellion and/or the release of Virus is interesting, but difficult. Hmm...
Alan</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting...
In order to prevent a time paradox, Avery could leave a message to Strephon telling him what's at stake and to make certain that Avery is born and give instruction on how to go back to prevent the assassination.
<tongue&cheek>
You could have one portal to be a shower stall in the royal quarters of the Imperial Palace.*
</tongue&cheek>
*See one of the April fools issues of Challenge for the joke.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Arsulon said-"I know a few people running CT campaigns with the TNE rules and so far they've been unqualified sucesses. There are just a few irregularities regarding equipment to be adressed. I remember one group of long-time CT players that were distressed to learn their battle dress and grav belts had gained weight: this led to a lot of wry speculation on what battledress does when you're not looking, such as raiding the fridge and cannibalizing other unsuspecting suits. Another player sarcastically remarked, after reading FF&S, that everything in the "far future" of TNE was made out of metal and weighed a ton."
____________________________
Quite so, My UK collaborator in adventure writing (I lend him a hand writing up the NPCs), Richard P on this postboard, has basically a CT campaign with TNE rules, and his gamers seem to be enjoying it okay. I utilize some CT stuff myself, especially in Char generation, and skething out ships, with High Guard (with a dash of Freelance Traveller-Ken Pick SHipyard's know-how tossed in).
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Quite so, My UK collaborator in adventure writing (I lend him a hand writing up the NPCs), Richard P on this postboard, has basically a CT campaign with TNE rules, and his gamers seem to be enjoying it okay. I utilize some CT stuff myself, especially in Char generation, and skething out ships, with High Guard (with a dash of Freelance Traveller-Ken Pick SHipyard's know-how tossed in).
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
MJD, How are you? How'd dya think this is goin so far? Think I got the lads and lady thinking now...? Hope so. Gotta grab me t-20 OPHB tomorrow, and spread a few more flyers at "game stores" (or what passes fer em in Arkansas!)
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Rabid Vargr, anything to add?
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Starpilot/cHris Griffen wrote-"It was the patronizing attitude of the RCES texts that completely turned me off of using it as my campaign. I tend not to see things as black and white but rather as having moral gray areas more often than not.
Nilsen seemed to be saying, "Unlike all endeavors that had gone on before in human history, this one was completely morally right and impervious to criticism. And furthermore, the future interstellar government that this movement will help spawn will be equally as impervious."
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His alluding to these statements did rankle many folk, agreed Mr Griffen. Myself included. Hence my title. Heretic in Chief--not just for Solee's sake either lad!
______________________________
Ridiculous.
And then at the end all that tripe about how the Star Vikings "left charted space" and were never seen again. What, were they some kind of sadly underappreciated heroes that we should long for?
Insulting to the intelligence. I railed on about this for years on the tne-rces list, much to the consternation of many loyal RCES campaigners."
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"Tripe" is a kind word, Mr Griffen. Daergh is more like it.(my Vargr word for inedible filth/ excrement/ refuse). MJD has something in store for this "ending"..but not as DN had cast it.
_____________________
I prefer the neutral stance that most CT and MT campaigns took. Set up the scenario and let the players behave in manners that they believe to be morally right, wrong or otherwise. Roleplaying should be the canvas upon which the dramatic content of the story is painted, not in the sourcebooks."
_________________________
Bravo, Mr Griffen! I was wondering when you would honor my topic with your insight. Thank you sir!
Source books should be that--a Source. The frame work--the storytelling leave to the ref/GM & players actions! Bravo sir.
Next!
Nilsen seemed to be saying, "Unlike all endeavors that had gone on before in human history, this one was completely morally right and impervious to criticism. And furthermore, the future interstellar government that this movement will help spawn will be equally as impervious."
________________________________________________
His alluding to these statements did rankle many folk, agreed Mr Griffen. Myself included. Hence my title. Heretic in Chief--not just for Solee's sake either lad!
______________________________Ridiculous.
And then at the end all that tripe about how the Star Vikings "left charted space" and were never seen again. What, were they some kind of sadly underappreciated heroes that we should long for?
Insulting to the intelligence. I railed on about this for years on the tne-rces list, much to the consternation of many loyal RCES campaigners."
______________________________________________
"Tripe" is a kind word, Mr Griffen. Daergh is more like it.(my Vargr word for inedible filth/ excrement/ refuse). MJD has something in store for this "ending"..but not as DN had cast it.
_____________________
I prefer the neutral stance that most CT and MT campaigns took. Set up the scenario and let the players behave in manners that they believe to be morally right, wrong or otherwise. Roleplaying should be the canvas upon which the dramatic content of the story is painted, not in the sourcebooks."
_________________________
Bravo, Mr Griffen! I was wondering when you would honor my topic with your insight. Thank you sir!
Source books should be that--a Source. The frame work--the storytelling leave to the ref/GM & players actions! Bravo sir.
Next!
MY vision is all in shades of gray, with a lot of black (!). Nobody is right, everyone has motivaitons. and some of the compromises are grim.
But I won't be ramming a storyline down your throats (though there are several metaplots).
And the Star Vikings DO leave Charted Space. Not sayig what they do, though; only that their story is not over in 1248.
But I won't be ramming a storyline down your throats (though there are several metaplots).
And the Star Vikings DO leave Charted Space. Not sayig what they do, though; only that their story is not over in 1248.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Rancke said-"You misunderstand me. I don't mean a plot device to get a party of PCs from one universe to another. I mean a plot where the fact of the contact between the two universes is a crucial point in the plot. (And I don't want to involve time travel).'
________________________________
Like a wormhole? Natural or artifically created...Hmmm. Shades of ST/DS9. Food for thought. YOU can do it, if you figure out how to make it plausible. to yourself, and next your gamers. Good luck. Sorry for the mix up, Hans.
________________________________
Like a wormhole? Natural or artifically created...Hmmm. Shades of ST/DS9. Food for thought. YOU can do it, if you figure out how to make it plausible. to yourself, and next your gamers. Good luck. Sorry for the mix up, Hans.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
MJD wrote-"MY vision is all in shades of gray, with a lot of black (!). Nobody is right, everyone has motivaitons. and some of the compromises are grim.
But I won't be ramming a storyline down your throats (though there are several metaplots).
And the Star Vikings DO leave Charted Space. Not sayig what they do, though; only that their story is not over in 1248.'
_____________________________
Thank you MJD! Been wondering when you'd grace this topic. I am honored sir. I appreciate your input and clarification here and there!
Scouts out front!
But I won't be ramming a storyline down your throats (though there are several metaplots).
And the Star Vikings DO leave Charted Space. Not sayig what they do, though; only that their story is not over in 1248.'
_____________________________
Thank you MJD! Been wondering when you'd grace this topic. I am honored sir. I appreciate your input and clarification here and there!
Scouts out front!
I only ran a Regency campaign, but if I always figured that if I ever did do a Diaspora campaign, I would somehow run it from the Solee perspective and endeavor to humanize the Solee who seemed only to serve as a straw man for the RCES to knock over in the big scheme of things. Never got to it unfortunately.
From what I've read of MJD's work, he writes more in the traditional Traveller style. Which is a good thing!
I always loved the potential that the TNE storyline offered. It was the execution that was lacking. And post-apocalyptic sci-fi is really my favorite subgenre with straight space opera a close second.
It was obvious that there just weren't enough voices in the Traveller line other than Nilsen's. Had there been more people involved, maybe the travesty that was Hivers and Ithklur never would have come to be.
Sorry for the potshots at the absent Mr. Nilsen, but he lurked on the tne-rces list for long enough in the mid-90s to know that I and several others held these opinions.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Starpilot/Chris Griffen-'I only ran a Regency campaign, but if I always figured that if I ever did do a Diaspora campaign, I would somehow run it from the Solee perspective and endeavor to humanize the Solee who seemed only to serve as a straw man for the RCES to knock over in the big scheme of things. Never got to it unfortunately.'
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Ahh, see PoT short changed Solee on ships, IM not so HO. One of my detractors on tne-thinks I've created an "unstoppable juggernaut". But he cannot out argue my logic, derived from his very Canon source!
Actually, I DID put a more human face on the Solee. I allowed them to think they were the inheritors of Margaret's Dream, thanks to a few remnanats, and the 1129-30 Treaty of Altair cease fire with the Solomani Confederation.
But i also gave them some Black War veterans, with those ships. The crews might be green, but their leaders have earned their spurs in Zarushagar, OE, and Massilia. E-mail me at the house, I'll send you my bibliography on Lewis' BARD site.
My Solee uses the LASH system & Battle rider doctrines. They have to orbitaly pound the snot out of an objective because the lighters are slow, thin armored, and vulnerable. Their surplus of SDB's makes for battle riders aboard /grappled to the Jump warships.
Another aspect folks overlook about SOlee--her law level is 1. Aubaine has an 8??? Which is a freer society?! HULLLLLOOO!
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"From what I've read of MJD's work, he writes more in the traditional Traveller style. Which is a good thing!
I always loved the potential that the TNE storyline offered. It was the execution that was lacking. And post-apocalyptic sci-fi is really my favorite subgenre with straight space opera a close second.
It was obvious that there just weren't enough voices in the Traveller line other than Nilsen's. Had there been more people involved, maybe the travesty that was Hivers and Ithklur never would have come to be.
Sorry for the potshots at the absent Mr. Nilsen, but he lurked on the tne-rces list for long enough in the mid-90s to know that I and several others held these opinions.
_____________________________________________
Aha, well, Mr Griffen, I'll save that ammo for another post on the Starfish & Lizards. As for Sniping Nilsen, he was a lightning Rod. He set himself there, and so he gets the flak. Problem is, (IMHO), absolute power went to the noggin. "My way or the Highway!"
Well, Gygax tried that, and got the boot too.
Nilsen did, and GDW went to Davey Jones Locker. I am sorry I hadnae paid attention to computers til after 94. I'd have lit his arse up like an FAE. (We Irish argue even with God, I'm told)
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Ahh, see PoT short changed Solee on ships, IM not so HO. One of my detractors on tne-thinks I've created an "unstoppable juggernaut". But he cannot out argue my logic, derived from his very Canon source!
Actually, I DID put a more human face on the Solee. I allowed them to think they were the inheritors of Margaret's Dream, thanks to a few remnanats, and the 1129-30 Treaty of Altair cease fire with the Solomani Confederation.
But i also gave them some Black War veterans, with those ships. The crews might be green, but their leaders have earned their spurs in Zarushagar, OE, and Massilia. E-mail me at the house, I'll send you my bibliography on Lewis' BARD site.
My Solee uses the LASH system & Battle rider doctrines. They have to orbitaly pound the snot out of an objective because the lighters are slow, thin armored, and vulnerable. Their surplus of SDB's makes for battle riders aboard /grappled to the Jump warships.
Another aspect folks overlook about SOlee--her law level is 1. Aubaine has an 8??? Which is a freer society?! HULLLLLOOO!
_____________________________________
"From what I've read of MJD's work, he writes more in the traditional Traveller style. Which is a good thing!
I always loved the potential that the TNE storyline offered. It was the execution that was lacking. And post-apocalyptic sci-fi is really my favorite subgenre with straight space opera a close second.
It was obvious that there just weren't enough voices in the Traveller line other than Nilsen's. Had there been more people involved, maybe the travesty that was Hivers and Ithklur never would have come to be.
Sorry for the potshots at the absent Mr. Nilsen, but he lurked on the tne-rces list for long enough in the mid-90s to know that I and several others held these opinions.
_____________________________________________
Aha, well, Mr Griffen, I'll save that ammo for another post on the Starfish & Lizards. As for Sniping Nilsen, he was a lightning Rod. He set himself there, and so he gets the flak. Problem is, (IMHO), absolute power went to the noggin. "My way or the Highway!"
Well, Gygax tried that, and got the boot too.
Nilsen did, and GDW went to Davey Jones Locker. I am sorry I hadnae paid attention to computers til after 94. I'd have lit his arse up like an FAE. (We Irish argue even with God, I'm told)
Well then, use the adventure hook from the CT Zhodani module: an Ancients device has given a Zhodani talent a vision of a bunch of people who look like the PCs doing something odd in an out of the way place.
The Zhodani then arrange for the PCs to go there to see what is actually going on. Of course, the vision wasn't the PCs, but their duplicates from an alternate universe, or else, it was the PCs, but they were in an alternate universe.
Anyway, the oddness probably involves the most conspicuous difference between the two universes: Virus!
If you have an allergy to Virus, stay away...
If not, then the PCs have to prevent a Viral incursion into the GT universe. This works regardless of which universe the PCs come from.
Alan
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
alanb-"Well then, use the adventure hook from the CT Zhodani module: an Ancients device has given a Zhodani talent a vision of a bunch of people who look like the PCs doing something odd in an out of the way place.
The Zhodani then arrange for the PCs to go there to see what is actually going on. Of course, the vision wasn't the PCs, but their duplicates from an alternate universe, or else, it was the PCs, but they were in an alternate universe.
Anyway, the oddness probably involves the most conspicuous difference between the two universes: Virus!
If you have an allergy to Virus, stay away...
If not, then the PCs have to prevent a Viral incursion into the GT universe. This works regardless of which universe the PCs come from."
_______________________________________________
Excellent suggestion, alanb! Stars fer you! Rancke? Does this help you out a bit more?
The Zhodani then arrange for the PCs to go there to see what is actually going on. Of course, the vision wasn't the PCs, but their duplicates from an alternate universe, or else, it was the PCs, but they were in an alternate universe.
Anyway, the oddness probably involves the most conspicuous difference between the two universes: Virus!
If you have an allergy to Virus, stay away...
If not, then the PCs have to prevent a Viral incursion into the GT universe. This works regardless of which universe the PCs come from."
_______________________________________________
Excellent suggestion, alanb! Stars fer you! Rancke? Does this help you out a bit more?
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Cross posting this here as well, cuz its relevant to the arguments of the thread, and Arsulon made good points in his Delian League vs Persian Empire analogy!
EnjoY;
"Arsulon wrote-"1) I believe Solee was set up as a straw-man for the RC to knock over. A great deal of ink is wasted in the various TNE supplements trying to convince the reader that RC's suppossed "moral vision" for the universe is right and just. They are justified to the reader by simple-minded comparisons to the eventual fall of the Third Imperium, e.g. "Well if you think WE'RE wrong just look at what the imperials did!" Oh, the sophistication. That justifies their birth, but in order to justify their continued existence the RC must confront and emasculate their evil father figure (in order to become the father/man): since the Imperium is gone, enter a stellar polity that represents the WORST of what imperial society represented. They have NOBLES (shudder!) They have an EMPRESS (eek!) who makes decisions without holding a referendum! They use BAD ships (i.e. imperial vessels.) They practice slavery/forced labour (which the Imperium never did, but oddly a lot of TNE material seems to imply they did.) They have WARS! It's just enough to make you wet your yellow and black pajamas. So, the RC has no choice but to defeat Solee in order to justify their existence.
What's that you say? Solee has a bigger and better navy? It doesn't matter. Dave Nilsen wasn't dealing in probabilities: he was "weaving a story." At the end of "Vampire Fleets" we're quite simply told, whether we like it or not, that the RC's pet viruses (e.g. Sandman) would be instrumental in the defeat of Solee: I'm not sure how this was supposed to happen since the book indicates the RC's virus-ships simply provide a bonus to the MFDs. Oh well: grit your teeth and think of the Imperium all you gearheads. I imagine the conflict would have started on the "hearts and minds" level with the RC winning over the inhabitants of the various Solee contested worlds. You will note that Solee had been set up to fail here: they're purposely characterized as being bogged down in counter-insurgency actions (e.g. "Freedom's Call" scenario in Striker II.) Once popular sentiment had turned against the Empress due to these failed operations she would have been asassinated and replaced by a ham-fisted junta that launches an inefficient, ill-timed invasion of the RC.
Likewise, the RC HAS to win because of the historical paralells. The Reformation Coalition is nothing like the actual vikings of old: any superficial resemblance to their mode of operation can be dismissed. Nilsen is getting the "star viking" term from H. Beam Piper's novel of the same name, which depicts a group of people infinitely more interesting than the RC. Anyway, the RC's closest historical paralell seems to be Classical Greece. It is an area inhabited by like-minded, but distinct, politically indedpendant (for the most part) entities: the worlds are city states, Aubaine being Athens (the cultural and economic center) and Oriflamme being Sparta (they hate everybody, are efficiency freaks and are good at killing people.) That said, the inner political tensions the RC is experiencing resembles the same problems resulting from the Delian League: a mutual defense pact between the city-states, led by Athens (who controlled the treasury) and was aimed chiefly at countering the Persian Empire. Well, guess who the Persians are? If you'd asked a contemporary who'd have won, the divided, squabbling Greeks or the unified jugernaught of Persia, the answer would've been obvious. But Persia didn't win! Their sheer size defeated them at Marathon and Salamis. That, I believe, is EXACTLY what GDW had planned for Solee: the powerful Soleean empire stumbling over itself, unable to coordinate, a heroic slaughter of the Oriflammnans (i.e. Thermopylae), the masterful statesmanship of Maggart (Pericles), etc., etc. The "League" would have started fraying afterwards leaving Aubaine (Athens) and Oriflamme (Sparta) at each others throats. If the Hivers are anything, they're the gods: they're indirectly responsible for civilization but would've continued to recede into the background. Of course the RC's political tensions may have come to nothing: just as things were getting interesting a CINET article had Maggart win universal acclaim by taking off his clothing in public (demonstrating his lack of fear of assasins.) Sickening.
____________________________
Excellent parallels with the Persians & Ancient Greeks, Arsulon. Dadgum you've hit the nail so many times I lost count in one paragraph! Agreed on the set to fail principle. The rest falls into the moral relativism that DN subjected the Traveller fandom to in "weaving a story" not making a sourcebook for a campaign.(hearkening back to Starpilot's words from another post, if I may)
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2) Is Solee a menace? Of course. I don't think GDW had any intention of letting them REMAIN a menace however. But realistically speaking, with a command economy expanding its markets with every conquest, their pre-war industrial and military assets, experienced officers and troops and, let's not forget, SEVERAL WORLDS THAT WOULD GIVE THEIR RIGHT ARMS TO HAVE ORDER, SECURITY, AND ACCESS TO SPACE AGAIN I honestly can't see how Solee wouldn't roll over the RC. My last point is an often overlooked one: Nilsen seemed to have the simple-minded understanding that empires expand by being as mean as possible to people. On the contrary, as most of us know, empries are often INVITED into territories they later end up administering. Memebership in an emprie holds many benefits (cultural, economic, military) to applicant states. However, the RC (and lamentably TNE) ethic dicates that member states in ANY emprie (Solee, Third Imperium) are being held by force alone. As a result, we have planetary factions fawning over the RC and trembling in fear of Solee. Why? No reason, someone's just "weaving a story."
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A major factor I could not ignore in my version of the events: the benefits of empire. Members of the tne-list were aghast that I would take this tack--How dare I? Well, how dare Dave Nilsen forget what makes an empire tick, run, and make people want to join? Force alone? In some cases, due to the 70-80 years of isolationism/ war/ xenophobia left from HT/Collapse... even the RC hit those stumbling blocks.
Solee for DN seemed to appear the embodiment of all the Worst things of the Imperium to toss(okay, I'll say it, regurgitate-vomit) back into our faces. But all things made of humans are flawed tis our nature. Not all of Solee is Black. As MJD alludes, their is a lot of gray. Solee is no exception. WITHOUT THE ALMIGHTY HIVERS they put together a PE with more people than the RC has at the time, using the recovery of the wilds model left by Margaret Tukera as a blueprint at the end of the Gannon book "Hard Times". No mean feat, and worthy of study. ABsorbing that many people in so short a time definitely changes the face of the RC forever.
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3) The RC technically doesn't need any diplomatic staff becasue they don't recognize the right of any other state to exist. This is an exaggeration of course; however, the entire AO concept is based on the perception that there are no legitimate governments in that area and that the RC may therefore operate freely. If they encounter a government they don't get along with it must therefore be a TED and its citizens ripe for "liberation."
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Therein lies the Hubris & amalgamation of Plato's "Cave", as the ancient Greeks call it. "We're morally right-the rest of you live in darkness."
OUTSTANDING, Arsulon. well thought out. We concur on all the major points. In the latter question 3, some diplomacy was used for "friendly" govt.s wishing recontact--only their was all the cohesion of an arthritic centipede imho.
Next!
EnjoY;
"Arsulon wrote-"1) I believe Solee was set up as a straw-man for the RC to knock over. A great deal of ink is wasted in the various TNE supplements trying to convince the reader that RC's suppossed "moral vision" for the universe is right and just. They are justified to the reader by simple-minded comparisons to the eventual fall of the Third Imperium, e.g. "Well if you think WE'RE wrong just look at what the imperials did!" Oh, the sophistication. That justifies their birth, but in order to justify their continued existence the RC must confront and emasculate their evil father figure (in order to become the father/man): since the Imperium is gone, enter a stellar polity that represents the WORST of what imperial society represented. They have NOBLES (shudder!) They have an EMPRESS (eek!) who makes decisions without holding a referendum! They use BAD ships (i.e. imperial vessels.) They practice slavery/forced labour (which the Imperium never did, but oddly a lot of TNE material seems to imply they did.) They have WARS! It's just enough to make you wet your yellow and black pajamas. So, the RC has no choice but to defeat Solee in order to justify their existence.
What's that you say? Solee has a bigger and better navy? It doesn't matter. Dave Nilsen wasn't dealing in probabilities: he was "weaving a story." At the end of "Vampire Fleets" we're quite simply told, whether we like it or not, that the RC's pet viruses (e.g. Sandman) would be instrumental in the defeat of Solee: I'm not sure how this was supposed to happen since the book indicates the RC's virus-ships simply provide a bonus to the MFDs. Oh well: grit your teeth and think of the Imperium all you gearheads. I imagine the conflict would have started on the "hearts and minds" level with the RC winning over the inhabitants of the various Solee contested worlds. You will note that Solee had been set up to fail here: they're purposely characterized as being bogged down in counter-insurgency actions (e.g. "Freedom's Call" scenario in Striker II.) Once popular sentiment had turned against the Empress due to these failed operations she would have been asassinated and replaced by a ham-fisted junta that launches an inefficient, ill-timed invasion of the RC.
Likewise, the RC HAS to win because of the historical paralells. The Reformation Coalition is nothing like the actual vikings of old: any superficial resemblance to their mode of operation can be dismissed. Nilsen is getting the "star viking" term from H. Beam Piper's novel of the same name, which depicts a group of people infinitely more interesting than the RC. Anyway, the RC's closest historical paralell seems to be Classical Greece. It is an area inhabited by like-minded, but distinct, politically indedpendant (for the most part) entities: the worlds are city states, Aubaine being Athens (the cultural and economic center) and Oriflamme being Sparta (they hate everybody, are efficiency freaks and are good at killing people.) That said, the inner political tensions the RC is experiencing resembles the same problems resulting from the Delian League: a mutual defense pact between the city-states, led by Athens (who controlled the treasury) and was aimed chiefly at countering the Persian Empire. Well, guess who the Persians are? If you'd asked a contemporary who'd have won, the divided, squabbling Greeks or the unified jugernaught of Persia, the answer would've been obvious. But Persia didn't win! Their sheer size defeated them at Marathon and Salamis. That, I believe, is EXACTLY what GDW had planned for Solee: the powerful Soleean empire stumbling over itself, unable to coordinate, a heroic slaughter of the Oriflammnans (i.e. Thermopylae), the masterful statesmanship of Maggart (Pericles), etc., etc. The "League" would have started fraying afterwards leaving Aubaine (Athens) and Oriflamme (Sparta) at each others throats. If the Hivers are anything, they're the gods: they're indirectly responsible for civilization but would've continued to recede into the background. Of course the RC's political tensions may have come to nothing: just as things were getting interesting a CINET article had Maggart win universal acclaim by taking off his clothing in public (demonstrating his lack of fear of assasins.) Sickening.
____________________________
Excellent parallels with the Persians & Ancient Greeks, Arsulon. Dadgum you've hit the nail so many times I lost count in one paragraph! Agreed on the set to fail principle. The rest falls into the moral relativism that DN subjected the Traveller fandom to in "weaving a story" not making a sourcebook for a campaign.(hearkening back to Starpilot's words from another post, if I may)
__________________________________________________
2) Is Solee a menace? Of course. I don't think GDW had any intention of letting them REMAIN a menace however. But realistically speaking, with a command economy expanding its markets with every conquest, their pre-war industrial and military assets, experienced officers and troops and, let's not forget, SEVERAL WORLDS THAT WOULD GIVE THEIR RIGHT ARMS TO HAVE ORDER, SECURITY, AND ACCESS TO SPACE AGAIN I honestly can't see how Solee wouldn't roll over the RC. My last point is an often overlooked one: Nilsen seemed to have the simple-minded understanding that empires expand by being as mean as possible to people. On the contrary, as most of us know, empries are often INVITED into territories they later end up administering. Memebership in an emprie holds many benefits (cultural, economic, military) to applicant states. However, the RC (and lamentably TNE) ethic dicates that member states in ANY emprie (Solee, Third Imperium) are being held by force alone. As a result, we have planetary factions fawning over the RC and trembling in fear of Solee. Why? No reason, someone's just "weaving a story."
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A major factor I could not ignore in my version of the events: the benefits of empire. Members of the tne-list were aghast that I would take this tack--How dare I? Well, how dare Dave Nilsen forget what makes an empire tick, run, and make people want to join? Force alone? In some cases, due to the 70-80 years of isolationism/ war/ xenophobia left from HT/Collapse... even the RC hit those stumbling blocks.
Solee for DN seemed to appear the embodiment of all the Worst things of the Imperium to toss(okay, I'll say it, regurgitate-vomit) back into our faces. But all things made of humans are flawed tis our nature. Not all of Solee is Black. As MJD alludes, their is a lot of gray. Solee is no exception. WITHOUT THE ALMIGHTY HIVERS they put together a PE with more people than the RC has at the time, using the recovery of the wilds model left by Margaret Tukera as a blueprint at the end of the Gannon book "Hard Times". No mean feat, and worthy of study. ABsorbing that many people in so short a time definitely changes the face of the RC forever.
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3) The RC technically doesn't need any diplomatic staff becasue they don't recognize the right of any other state to exist. This is an exaggeration of course; however, the entire AO concept is based on the perception that there are no legitimate governments in that area and that the RC may therefore operate freely. If they encounter a government they don't get along with it must therefore be a TED and its citizens ripe for "liberation."
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Therein lies the Hubris & amalgamation of Plato's "Cave", as the ancient Greeks call it. "We're morally right-the rest of you live in darkness."
OUTSTANDING, Arsulon. well thought out. We concur on all the major points. In the latter question 3, some diplomacy was used for "friendly" govt.s wishing recontact--only their was all the cohesion of an arthritic centipede imho.
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