Bishop Odo
SOC-12
Thanks for the info, I found a good description in MT last night, I also found a rather long posting on How Jumps Work at the Traveller Mailing List, which I just joined. More stuff to read and digest, yeah
Jump engines fuel vs. Power plant fuel
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Bishop Odo
SOC-12
I’m working up some ship stats in T20 and I realized that jump fuel and power plant fuel are total different and calculated separately. I realize this is just a game, but why? Does the jump engine create its own power and if so, can it be shunted to operate the ship if the power plant is off line and not in jump space? I took it for granted that all fuel is processed by the power plant and then distributed to the jump engine. So shouldn’t, the jump engines just require a specific amount power only.
From another thread, G:T also says that it's the REACTOR that is used to maintain the bubble in jumpspace. Anyone have any thoughts? I realize I’m missing something, I thought I’d asked the more experience designers out there.
.
From another thread, G:T also says that it's the REACTOR that is used to maintain the bubble in jumpspace. Anyone have any thoughts? I realize I’m missing something, I thought I’d asked the more experience designers out there.
.
IIRC: From previous versions of Trav, the Jump Drive has its own power plant, which creates a vast amount of power in a short burst. Most of the power goes into pushing the ship into jump space and building the field around it, but some of it feeds to accumulators that maintain the bubble while the ship is in jump.
You could use jump fuel for the power plant instead, but only if you don't need it to jump.
You could use jump fuel for the power plant instead, but only if you don't need it to jump.
Bishop Odo
SOC-12
I have done some further research and found differences in the various edition of traveler. T20 jump engines have a EP requirement that is derived from the ships power plant, pg 265, in addition to the required hydrogen fuel. MT requires only hydrogen fuel to be provided to the jump drives and the drives itself produces the power.
So, what does all this mean? Since I have the Starship Operators Manuel and want to use it as cannon, and I would like to participate in the T20 community with canon deck plans and ship stats I’m forced to use both. Which in reality is not that hard, it just gets a little confusing for my players and myself sometimes, hopping from system to system.
So, what does all this mean? Since I have the Starship Operators Manuel and want to use it as cannon, and I would like to participate in the T20 community with canon deck plans and ship stats I’m forced to use both. Which in reality is not that hard, it just gets a little confusing for my players and myself sometimes, hopping from system to system.
Okay. If I was trying to explain Jump for T20, I'd say that the initial shift into Jump Space needs a vast surge of power (too much for a regular powerplant, which is designed for a continuous output, to handle).
The Jump Drive is a specially modified power plant designed to operate at very high output levels for a short time.
The drive burns all of its own fuel doing this, but once in Jump Space only a trickle of power (which the regular power plant can handle) is required to maintain the field which surrounds the ship. That power is fed through the Jump Drive too since that already has the Field Generators built into it.
The Jump Drive is a specially modified power plant designed to operate at very high output levels for a short time.
The drive burns all of its own fuel doing this, but once in Jump Space only a trickle of power (which the regular power plant can handle) is required to maintain the field which surrounds the ship. That power is fed through the Jump Drive too since that already has the Field Generators built into it.
marginaleye
SOC-12
I've never liked the "jump drive as high-output fusion reactor" theory, if only because (a) it is exceedingly strange that nobody has ever used such power plants for anything else, and (b) if the jump drive generates its own power, then ships with large jump drives shouldn't require large power plants, too.
I have a grotesquely heretical theory regarding the nature of the jump drive, and the role of the "fuel" it consumes.
The jump drive is a highly esoteric kind of reaction engine. As the ship drops into hyperspace, its power plant reduces all of that liquid hydrogen to energetic plasma, which is fed into the jump drive proper (the bigger the jump, the more plasma is needed, and the hotter it has to be, hence the need for larger power plants). At the heart of the jump drive lies a spherical chamber, which receives the plasma stream, and at the center of this chamber lies the deeply mysterious point of no-return, where the plasma stream vanishes. The orientation of the plasma stream relative to the point, the ship's energized lanthanum hull-grid, and any nearby massive objects (like stars and planets) in the ship's vicinity determines the direction of the jump. It's not clear where the plasma goes -- it is generally assumed that is swallowed up by hyperspace, and then "misjumps" back into our universe, as widely-scattered individual atoms of interstellar hydrogen. The point is, by the way, an temporary phenomenon, generated by gravitic and electromagnetic mechanisms within the drive -- when the jump drive is switched off, it vanishes.
The jump fuel is "reaction mass," which "disturbs" the unstable boundary between ordinary, everyday space, and hyperspace, during the transition process. The analogy to ordinary rocket engines is, of course, a very loose one...
I have a grotesquely heretical theory regarding the nature of the jump drive, and the role of the "fuel" it consumes.
The jump drive is a highly esoteric kind of reaction engine. As the ship drops into hyperspace, its power plant reduces all of that liquid hydrogen to energetic plasma, which is fed into the jump drive proper (the bigger the jump, the more plasma is needed, and the hotter it has to be, hence the need for larger power plants). At the heart of the jump drive lies a spherical chamber, which receives the plasma stream, and at the center of this chamber lies the deeply mysterious point of no-return, where the plasma stream vanishes. The orientation of the plasma stream relative to the point, the ship's energized lanthanum hull-grid, and any nearby massive objects (like stars and planets) in the ship's vicinity determines the direction of the jump. It's not clear where the plasma goes -- it is generally assumed that is swallowed up by hyperspace, and then "misjumps" back into our universe, as widely-scattered individual atoms of interstellar hydrogen. The point is, by the way, an temporary phenomenon, generated by gravitic and electromagnetic mechanisms within the drive -- when the jump drive is switched off, it vanishes.
The jump fuel is "reaction mass," which "disturbs" the unstable boundary between ordinary, everyday space, and hyperspace, during the transition process. The analogy to ordinary rocket engines is, of course, a very loose one...
The best answer is that it just is, but...
Van den Broek's modification to Alcubierre's warp drive still requires several grams of negative energy to work. My own theory is that the jump hydrogen is expended to create that negative mass.
Possibly because creating the negative mass produces an equivilent amount of positive energy which the jump fuel carries away as an explosion. Unrefined fuel is not homogenous and can cause an asymetrical negative mass and a missjump.
BTW, van den Broek, Miguel Alcubierre, and the Alcubierre drive are real. Do a websearch.
Van den Broek's modification to Alcubierre's warp drive still requires several grams of negative energy to work. My own theory is that the jump hydrogen is expended to create that negative mass.
Possibly because creating the negative mass produces an equivilent amount of positive energy which the jump fuel carries away as an explosion. Unrefined fuel is not homogenous and can cause an asymetrical negative mass and a missjump.
BTW, van den Broek, Miguel Alcubierre, and the Alcubierre drive are real. Do a websearch.
Bishop Odo
SOC-12
I agree with you Uncle Bob, the final answer is of course, “that’s just the way it works”. However as a game master and player, I like to be consistent with my rulings and have some background codified to rely upon. I like to encourage players to get into their roles by using the idioms or chrome of the universe. BigBadRon Idea about integrating the T20 and MT canon follows my thinking. I have read the Starship operators manual, worth the price I might add, and a long article from the Traveller mailing list on “How Jumps work,” which has a unique view that venting hydrogen during the jump help create and maintains the jump field bubble. While the venting of hydrogen is not necessary canon, I think I can live with it, and changing the fuel requirement would create more problems than it would solve.
You're on the right track though. Don't worry, what you're seeing (between CT, High Guard, MT, TNE, T4) has always been a problem. Most long time traveller players are either masochists or gearheads, and for people who had to figure out how to carve their own D20's "way back when", coping with a little rules inconsistency wasn't a big deal.
While this is going to sound trite, take what you like and run with it. It will start to flow more smoothly as you get used to it.
Brennan
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening and Happy New Year to all,
This is a third attempt to post additional information on a Jump Drive (J-D) and add my own theory pulled together from various sources that include CT/MT/TNE/GT and an article from http://www.thehypercube.com/ under the Traveller button/Training/Jump Drive on the left hand side menu.
Hopefully, I can complete this one. More data is provided on the J-D on T20 THB Chapter 12 page 268, Column 2, "Force Fields" 2nd paragraph:
"A J-D has energy cpacaitors (caps) already built-in and may be used for storing energy redirected from a Black Globe. Additional caps are also available and may be purchased as desired. A J-D has caps = in size to (0.5% x Jump USP Rating) X Hull Tonnage. snip example of figuring out J-3 cap size complte snip. Extra caps are avialable for MCr4 per ton. A 1-ton cap (in a J-D or not) can store up to 36 EPs."
So from the above we know that a J-D is a huge cap. Now here goes my basic theory on how a J-D functions:
1. Vessel reaches the 100D limit and shuts down the maneuver drive (M-D). Depending the the ships age and other variables non-essential systems are also shutdown.
2. The EPs are shifted from the M-D to charge the J-D caps for the jump.
3. The J-D fuel is release to provide a protective bubble around the ship and provide a path for the power discharged via the jump grib. This opens Jump space and allows the ship to cross the barrier.
4. After a week (other sources indicate this to be 168 hours +/- 10%) the hydrogen has been depleted and the ship drops back to Normal space. Which usually, no misjump, is at the 100D limit of the target system.
Well anyway the above is how I think the Jump Drive basically works.
This is a third attempt to post additional information on a Jump Drive (J-D) and add my own theory pulled together from various sources that include CT/MT/TNE/GT and an article from http://www.thehypercube.com/ under the Traveller button/Training/Jump Drive on the left hand side menu.
Hopefully, I can complete this one. More data is provided on the J-D on T20 THB Chapter 12 page 268, Column 2, "Force Fields" 2nd paragraph:
"A J-D has energy cpacaitors (caps) already built-in and may be used for storing energy redirected from a Black Globe. Additional caps are also available and may be purchased as desired. A J-D has caps = in size to (0.5% x Jump USP Rating) X Hull Tonnage. snip example of figuring out J-3 cap size complte snip. Extra caps are avialable for MCr4 per ton. A 1-ton cap (in a J-D or not) can store up to 36 EPs."
So from the above we know that a J-D is a huge cap. Now here goes my basic theory on how a J-D functions:
1. Vessel reaches the 100D limit and shuts down the maneuver drive (M-D). Depending the the ships age and other variables non-essential systems are also shutdown.
2. The EPs are shifted from the M-D to charge the J-D caps for the jump.
3. The J-D fuel is release to provide a protective bubble around the ship and provide a path for the power discharged via the jump grib. This opens Jump space and allows the ship to cross the barrier.
4. After a week (other sources indicate this to be 168 hours +/- 10%) the hydrogen has been depleted and the ship drops back to Normal space. Which usually, no misjump, is at the 100D limit of the target system.
Well anyway the above is how I think the Jump Drive basically works.
In Ct there are three systems installed in the engine room: The jump drive, the maneuver drive, and the power plant. The jump drive requires its own fuel to enter jump space, but it also requires some energy input from the power plant, since the minimum size of the power plant depends on the size of both the jump drive and the maneuver drive.
The way I explain that is that the jump drive does two things: It creates a hole into jump space and shoves the ship through that hole and it creates and maintains a bubble of Real Space around the ship. The jump fuel is used for the first purpose and the power plant delivers the power needed to maintain the second.
You could have a jump drive shove the ship into jump space without the protective bubble, but you wouldn't have much ship left after a week in jump space.
Hans
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Happy New Year to one and all, Howdy Hans,
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Howdy again Hans,
Where's the error?
minimum size of the power plant depends on the size "of both" the jump drive and the maneuver drive."
My initial impression of the above comment is that the minimum power plant size = Maneuver Drive Size + Jump Drive Size. The rules I cited indicated that the power plant size must at least equal the largest of the two drives. If the M-drive is 3-G and the J-drive is Jump 2, the power plant must be at least = to the M-Drive. If the M-drive is 1 and the J-drive 3, then the power plant must be = to the J-drive.
Sorry about not pointing out where I felt the slight error was in the sentence, but I had a devil of a time getting posts typed. I think I need either or both a new mouse and keyborad.
Hans</font>[/QUOTE]
Where's the error?
minimum size of the power plant depends on the size "of both" the jump drive and the maneuver drive."
My initial impression of the above comment is that the minimum power plant size = Maneuver Drive Size + Jump Drive Size. The rules I cited indicated that the power plant size must at least equal the largest of the two drives. If the M-drive is 3-G and the J-drive is Jump 2, the power plant must be at least = to the M-Drive. If the M-drive is 1 and the J-drive 3, then the power plant must be = to the J-drive.
Sorry about not pointing out where I felt the slight error was in the sentence, but I had a devil of a time getting posts typed. I think I need either or both a new mouse and keyborad.
I wrote "In CT" (OK, OK, actually I wrote "In Ct" because I mistyped). Where's the error? The effect of the rule you quote is that the power plant must always at least equal the jump drive. It's not my fault that the MT writers missed the implications of that.
Hans</font>[/QUOTE]
I have contention with your notion that they are real. These are theories that deal in highly speculative 'potential' technologies and are no real than any other science fiction method of FTL space travel.
Even the fact of travelling faster than light is, itself, speculative and cannot be considered real in any way.
My point is that it's all fiction, so the method that you 'invent' is as real as any other method. It doesn't really matter who came up with it. Heck, you can even 'ignore' the light-speed barrier and just do a simple acceleration deceleration between stars as a method of travel. This hasn't been accepted as being able to be done for quite a long time. But there are those that still think that relativiety isn't accurate and aether is still a real substance. So I say, why not?
Who was it that was making a campaign based in the 'buck rogers' genre? Sounds like it can be quite fun to me.....
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