Kokirraks in Gateway in 993?

[BetterThanLife]

PAge 93 in the Gateway book lists part of the NAval units deployed at Anapabar in 993 as a Batron of Kokirraks. Unlike other ships that appear in both Supp-9 and TA7 the Kokirrak appears to be a newer ship design in the 1100s as opposed to an aging design like the AHL or Atlantic. (Especially in the comments of the specialist role now being used instead of the generalist ships like the Tigresses.)

Since the Kokirrak appears to be relatively new in 1105 and appears to be designed from the keel up as a TL-15 warship (Blackglobe 4, Power requirements that pretty much require TL-15, etc.) what is a Batron of them doing in a relative backwater away from the action of the war or the heightened tensions of the soon to happen Fourth Frontier war? And since they are TL-15 why are they in Gateway where they can't be maintained?

I personally think they should be Perishers, but what is the official concept as to why they are there?

 

[mike wightman]

Supplement 9, page 42, fifth paragraph:

The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial service and are now being phased out of service. Within the last decade, several ships have been disposed of to other services such as the scouts, and to other governments...

They weren't new in 1107, they were very old.

 

[mike wightman]

I do agree, though, that this appears at odds with the write-up for the Perisher which is described as "brand new", and "state of the art" (TL14). Odd that there are three in prototype form, with four due for completion in 1008, when the TL15 Kokirrak has already made them obsolete
Perhaps the Tiananmen class battleship, Diaspora class battlecruiser or either of the heavy cruisers in TA:7 would be a better fit

 

[mike wightman]

There's always the chance that the Kokirrac, like the Atlantic class heavy cruiser, was designed as a TL14 vessel, but with an eye to upgrading to TL15 systems

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
There's always the chance that the Kokirrac, like the Atlantic class heavy cruiser, was designed as a TL14 vessel, but with an eye to upgrading to TL15 systems

To me it's that simple. It's not impossible that they'd be around during the Rim War at TL14 or whatever then upgraded later with Black Globes and other TL15 equipment.

If that doesn't work for you then perhaps make up the dreadnaught that the Perisher would be replacing.

As for what they're doing there? That would be telling. <drives off in a yellow Lotus followed by a big ole white ballon>

Casey

 

[BetterThanLife]

Damn, I guess it just felt they were newer. Must make the Tigresses even older. So where are the newer ships of the 1100s. There were obviously lots of ship types being built in the 990s. I mean we have the new Atlantics and AHLs. We have the Kokirraks, the Tigresses, the Perishers, etc. Where are the new ship classes in the 1100s? (Or is that what the TL-15 FSOTSI ships were supposed to be?) With the new jump engines that changed the calculation of Jump Fuel.

)

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Supplement 9, page 42, fifth paragraph:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Kokirraks are one of the older classes of dreadnaughts in Imperial service and are now being phased out of service. Within the last decade, several ships have been disposed of to other services such as the scouts, and to other governments...

They weren't new in 1107, they were very old. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[mike wightman]

If MT is anything to go by then by the 1100's the Imperiun was already prototyping TL15/16 hybrids, with a move to a fully capable TL16 fleet by the mid 1100's.


And the new Golden Age EPIC adventure just confirms my suspicions

 

[Falkayn]

Still ... it makes a very nice reaction force to keep hanging around in Ley sector.

 

[Michael Taylor]

It would probabl y be the *only* heavy reaction force sitting around in Ley sector. It may even be the only Batrom in the entire sector fleet.

 

[savage]

Kokirrak aged? I'll take one.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Yeah but I am thinking 1105. (You know 110 years after Gateway, Eve of the Fifth Frontier War time frame. I mean did they stop designing new ships, or stop building new ships, even with the High end TL advance to 15, after the Solomani Rim War/Fourth Frontier War? Where are the newer ships in Supp-9. (We have a new Destroyer and Light Cruiser, but no new Drednaughts or Heavy Cruisers? It appears that virtually everything in Supp-9 is already 100+ years old by the time it is published. (Yet it is virtually all TL-15.) Where are the new Drednaughts? Where is the new Heavy Cruiser Classes?

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
If MT is anything to go by then by the 1100's the Imperiun was already prototyping TL15/16 hybrids, with a move to a fully capable TL16 fleet by the mid 1100's.


And the new Golden Age EPIC adventure just confirms my suspicions

 

[mike wightman]

Maybe the Imperium is concentrating on Tender/Rider designs - they do make up the bulk of the BatRons in the IN.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Possibly but the history says that after the Fourth Frontier War the Battle Tenders were pretty much withdrawn from frontline service. (And placed in the reserves a sector away from the front lines.) That would make development of Battleships a priority in the 1000's to 1100's so we should have some newer designs. (The Doctrine shift from Superdrednaughts that did everything, like the Tigress, with its fighter wing and huge Marine detachment, to the purpose built specialized ships like the Kokirrak and Plankwell, with associated Fleet Carriers should produce more design and developement as well.)

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Maybe the Imperium is concentrating on Tender/Rider designs - they do make up the bulk of the BatRons in the IN.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I think we definitely need to know if it was intentional to actually put Kokirraks there instead of some other ship from TA-7. Or if they are supposed to be Kokirraks then we should have the TL-14 stats on them, since it is obviously a significant class of warship. If left to us as to how to degrade the TL of the Kokirrak, I am sure we will come up with at least 10 solutions.

Hunter? MJD?

 

[Flynn]

I'm pretty positive that Gateway to Destiny was written before TA7, so those write-ups weren't around at the time that the drafts were written. That may have been why the Kokirrak was mentioned instead of something from TA7.

Just a thought,
Flynn

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Flynn:
I'm pretty positive that Gateway to Destiny was written before TA7

It was likely written, as in first draft, well before TA7 but according to the news archive:
TA7 now available
Nov-20-2003

Gateway at the printer
Apr-14-2004

With the final pdf version being released around that time, a prior version in March and I can't remember when the first version was made available.

UPDATE- found it
Jul-1-2003

Casey

 

[Flynn]

Yeppers, Casey.

Too bad it appears that no one caught the Kokirrak reference during the time period between the PDF release and the print release, to point it out to MJD. (If they did, I would assume that he just missed the mention of it, but then again, I don't know for certain either way.)

What ship from TA7 would you have put in its place?

Thanks for digging those up for us,

Flynn

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Flynn:
What ship from TA7 would you have put in its place?

Thanks for digging those up for us,

YW.

What I previously suggested even though it's only referenced in TA7, the dreadnaught that the Perisher would be replacing. If you have to stick to a class stated in TA7 and/or a dreadnaught's too "heavy" then Diaspora Class Battlecruisers I suppose or the Tiananmen class battleship, which is a Gateway original.

I still don't get the point of the later class's name or ship names for that class but that rapidly brings a thread into politics. Folk are free to PM me.

Casey

 

[BetterThanLife]

That actually makes more sense than some of the other suggestions.

Looking at it, I can't see the benefit of refitting Armor on a ship One would think that would be prohibitively expensive. And since the Kokirrak came after the Tigress, (because it represents a change in Doctrine from the Tigress) and since the Tigress has an Armor factor of 15, it should follow that the Tigress was built from the keel up as TL-15, and even if it was a modified design after the Imperium reached TL-15 from an older TL-14 version. The Kokirrak would clearly have been built after the last Tigress. (IF you are changing doctrine why modernize, at considerable expense, an old ship when you can build a new one and Newer ships use a different design philosophy.) Besides the Kokirrak was fitted out originally with BG generators. (TL-15) I can see a BatRon of TL-14 Tigresses but I still don't buy the Kokirraks. Besides if they already have Tigresses, why build Perishers?

Originally posted by Flynn:
I'm pretty positive that Gateway to Destiny was written before TA7, so those write-ups weren't around at the time that the drafts were written. That may have been why the Kokirrak was mentioned instead of something from TA7.

Just a thought,
Flynn

 

[Falkayn]

For those of us without TA7 and looking for Kokirrak class ships in T20, here is Savage's take on them: Kokirrak Dreadnaught