Lack of Jurisdiction in J-Space

[Kilgs]

Okay, so I’ve been working on this story and I came up with a nifty idea for a traveling casino. Then I started to think about it… who has legal jurisdiction in Jump Space? Granted, there can’t be all that many Imperial crimes that could take place in J-space but, if there were, I’d argue lack of jurisdiction in a heartbeat. Now, you can make the argument that a crime can be prosecuted anywhere that a substantial (or non-substantial) portion took place.

But let’s pretend that organized gambling was illegal by system law. Really there is no way to prosecute this if the gambling takes place in J-space as long as everyone pays their taxes. As long as no part of the crime occurred while in the system. Note that money laundering and the like could be considered but work with me a bit... So let’s say that gambling is illegal in a system, an individual buys a ship, takes on passengers, Jumps to the other side of the system (micro-jumps still take a week). Once in J-space, casino tables are broken out and chips/cards are dealt. If no part of the crime takes place in N-space, then there is no real threat of prosecution. The ship jumps out to the outer ring, one week of gambling in J-space, then refuels at gas giant, jumps back (gambling all the way), stops outside the limit and sends all the passengers down by shuttle. Takes on another batch of passengers or jumps to another system where they do the same thing.

My story had to do with an underworld outfit that operated several of the above-mentioned “jumping poker games” that went from system to system. Obviously this would only work in those systems where gambling was illegal or regulated to some extent. I then started to try and think about the other uses for this “territorial grey area.” Essentially, if you had a law-free zone, what would you or someone far more nasty-minded come up with to maximize the potential? Narcotics manufacture? Torture? (Jumping gitmo…)Bribery? Rape? Assault? Fraud?

But nearly all of these crimes would have a portion of the act occurring in a system… narcotics obviously need to be sold, a bribed official won’t act in a certain way while in J-space but when returned. Torture… well, that’s a grey area itself. So what other operations would this assist?

Any wild and crazy thoughts?

 

[savage]

Jumping Games

A solar system is a big place... not sure they need to hide in Jspace. Actually, not sure a lot of the patrons would appreciate being under complete control of the ship's owners. Now in mobile game ship could jump in system be met by a pre- arranged shuttle visit after refueling and leave when needed.


Its an interesting thought. And then the pirate issue... what a sweet prize a gaming ship would be.:rofl:

 

[drnuncheon]

The Imperium as it stands probably wouldn't get involved in a J-space crime unless it was pretty big, but the whole claiming jurisdiction over all interstellar commerce leaves things wide open for such claims if there's a reason they want to exercise them.

In the modern day, the country where the ship or aircraft is registered is considered to have jurisdiction, even if the crime occurs in the air or in international waters. If they decide not to take action for some reason then the country of an involved party can claim it. Some crimes (piracy, slavery, etc), any nation may claim jurisdiction under the applicable laws.

I think this isn't a bad model. It's definitely something that will have been solved after so many thousands of years, and the analogy of J-space to international waters is easy enough to imagine and fits fairly well with the more laissez-faire interpretations of the Imperium.

 

[Ranger]

Well, it could get very complicated depending on the system. If you only have one government for the main world, and only one naturally habitable planet in the system, then all the various colonies in the system would presumably be under the main worlds rule. But, if you have more than one habitable planet, or a balkanized world, you could have multiple governments running various colonies in system. Lots of compeeting claims of juristiction in those cases I would imagine.

 

[Easterner9504]

Gambling

A planet can ban gambling till the cows come home. If it's an Imperial world and it has a starport A-E it has an Extrality Zone. Extrality Zones are completely Libertarian by nature, Gambling, whoring, gun pocession all legal.

Only worlds where restictions exist would be corporate worlds where Starport is private only i.e privately owned planet. A gambling ship might be welcome at underdeveloped worlds as entertainment but Imperium just shows no signs in canon (Rancke cue) of prohibiting anything unless it impinges on others: murder, kidnapping, trafficking in stolen goods etc.

 

[rancke]

A planet can ban gambling till the cows come home. If it's an Imperial world and it has a starport A-E it has an Extrality Zone. Extrality Zones are completely Libertarian by nature, Gambling, whoring, gun pocession all legal.

Unless the Starport Manager decides it's more trouble than it's worth. A starport isn't Libertarian; it's Authoritarian (Or as Democratic as Ankh-Morpork ).

Only worlds where resrtictions exist would be corporate worlds where Starport is private only i.e privately owned planet. A gambling ship might be welcome at underdeveloped worlds as entertainment but Imperium just shows no signs in canon (Rancke cue) of prohibiting anything unless it impinges on others: murder, kidnapping, trafficking in stolen goods etc.

Quite true. And there are some references to gambling aboard interstellar ships. Still, if Kilgs wants some ban on gambling enforced by the Imperium (or, more likely, enforced by a member world and tolerated by the Imperium), chose a duchy that hasn't been written up yet and have the Duke be sympathetic towards said member world.


Hans

 

[the angle]

On reflection, it gets much more complex than that.

Let's say you jump from A to B. While in jump space, one passenger murders another. Who prosecutes that crime? The laws and punishments at the destination could be wholly different from those at the origin. If the destination government simply says, "we don't care what happens in j-space," does the murderer walk free? The starship crew might have some responsibility in this case, such as to detain the suspected culprit, but for how long? Must he be returned to the planet of origin? Even if that's not his "home world," whatever that means in interstellar society?

That's one can o' worms, that is.

Steve

 

[Kilgs]

Its an interesting thought. And then the pirate issue... what a sweet prize a gaming ship would be.:rofl:

Shhhh! You’re giving away my plot!

The Imperium as it stands probably wouldn't get involved in a J-space crime unless it was pretty big, but the whole claiming jurisdiction over all interstellar commerce leaves things wide open for such claims if there's a reason they want to exercise them.

I think the Imperium would likely not care as well. I’ve placed the plot outside the Imperium for that reason. However, the Imperium’s control of commerce should grant them the authority to regulate gambling if they wanted to do so.

In the modern day, the country where the ship or aircraft is registered is considered to have jurisdiction, even if the crime occurs in the air or in international waters. If they decide not to take action for some reason then the country of an involved party can claim it. Some crimes (piracy, slavery, etc), any nation may claim jurisdiction under the applicable laws.

Are ships registered to a planet or to the Imperium? If its planetary, then a system is going to have its hands full trying to prosecute a group of rich folks with a jump ship. Especially if the Imperium takes a lax stance on regulation of gambling.

Piracy isn’t really an option since its an Imperial crime. And, if you use my caveat above about portion of crime occurring, you would still be arriving somewhere with a ship that wasn’t yours.

As noted, I’ve decided to go outside the Imperium but the thought got me going.

 

[rancke]

Let's say you jump from A to B. While in jump space, one passenger murders another. Who prosecutes that crime? The laws and punishments at the destination could be wholly different from those at the origin.

I recently saw an episode of "Bones" where they're on a plane on its way to China and discover a body. They have to solve the crime before the plane's wheels touch down in China, as it is considered under U.S. jurisdiction until that time. Something similar could be the case in the Imperium, with the added feature that the Imperium claims concurrent jurisdiction everywhere for some crimes.

If the destination government simply says, "we don't care what happens in j-space," does the murderer walk free?

Most likely the Imperium would assert its concurrent jurisdiction.


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Imperium

Being in Space A-Z makes no difference. Anything on planet is Local; Extrality, all space and Imperial owned planets are Imperial crimes. Arguing else wise is foolish. Man has been in space 1000's of years, this isn't a new problem.

Quote from Prison Planet (Mongoose)

The Imperium operates its own prisons, where those convicted of crimes in space or crimes against the Imperium are sent.



Gambling ship outside Imperium is just fine as extrality not necessarily recognized elsewhere.

 

[Whipsnade]

Kilgs,

I don't think the Imperium would give two hoots about gambling aboard a ship whether in jump space or not. After all, they leave the decision of whether to allow casinos up to SPA managers.

As for member worlds, their ability to enforce laws in their system will depend on the size of their navy but I don't think the Imperium will take kindly to Arglebargle-IX's Anti-Gambling Squadron boarding all newly arrived ships and searching them for poker chips. That could be seen as a restraint on interstellar traffic, something the Imperium very definitely frowns upon.

You're also overlooking another important angle. Worlds can easily prosecute their citizens for crimes their citizens commit outside of their jurisdiction. Nations do it all the time in the Real World. You could cross Arglebargle-IX's extrality line, play the slots in the port's casino, re-cross the extrality line, and still find yourself in the arms of the police.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Kilgs]

Lending itself to the argument about a murder on the ship, there are a number of issues:

One, how do you prosecute someone or investigate the crime? Do you impound the ship? Secure all the passengers? Is a merchant liner going to allow itself to be taken off its route for an extended amount of time?

Two, do Captains have recourse to their own justice while in space? On the one hand, this may be a matter of expediency due to the problems inherent with overlapping jurisdictions. On the other hand, if I was a Captain with a timetable, and an investigation would threaten that timetable... hello, airlock. If you knew who the murderer was.

Three, I believe the former poster was correct in stating that the laws of a vessel adhere to that of its port of registry in our world. But what if you're on a ship registered to Pavabid and you accidentally call their Holy Father an arse? Is that a crime? Do the Pavabidians send you back to Pavabid for prosecution? Or can you claim that you're a citizen of Glisten and it's not a crime there... apply to your consulate even?

------
A catchall solution would be that passengers/crew could provide affidavits to an Imperial office at a starport and the rules of evidence have been modified to allow such. But that lends its own credibility issues into jurisprudence. Accusation without confrontation is one of the most prohibited canons of American/European law. At the same time, the Imperium is not based in the slightest on those canons so an Imperial noble could likely dispense justice.

 

[Easterner9504]

Lending itself to the argument about a murder on the ship, there are a number of issues:

One, how do you prosecute someone or investigate the crime? Do you impound the ship? Secure all the passengers? Is a merchant liner going to allow itself to be taken off its route for an extended amount of time?

Whatever it takes. You have a right to a trial, no right to 'justice'

Two, do Captains have recourse to their own justice while in space? On the one hand, this may be a matter of expediency due to the problems inherent with overlapping jurisdictions. On the other hand, if I was a Captain with a timetable, and an investigation would threaten that timetable... hello, airlock. If you knew who the murderer was.

I don't think it's ever been addressed canon wise. I doubt it, depends on how pre-19thC the laws are.

Three, I believe the former poster was correct in stating that the laws of a vessel adhere to that of its port of registry in our world. But what if you're on a ship registered to Pavabid and you accidentally call their Holy Father an arse? Is that a crime? Do the Pavabidians send you back to Pavabid for prosecution? Or can you claim that you're a citizen of Glisten and it's not a crime there... apply to your consulate even?

If Pavabid grabs you, they own you that simple. As theorized in another thread it is possible Travellers are so commonly invited to 'handle' problems because they can appeal to Imperium for confinement, who then quietly let Travellers slip away; generally. Locals happy as law followed, Imperium happy because incidents handled quietly. Pure speculation though.

------

A catchall solution would be that passengers/crew could provide affidavits to an Imperial office at a starport and the rules of evidence have been modified to allow such. But that lends its own credibility issues into jurisprudence. Accusation without confrontation is one of the most prohibited canons of American/European law. At the same time, the Imperium is not based in the slightest on those canons so an Imperial noble could likely dispense justice.

Possibly GURPS NOBLES might address their legal limits?????

 

[rancke]

One, how do you prosecute someone or investigate the crime? Do you impound the ship? Secure all the passengers? Is a merchant liner going to allow itself to be taken off its route for an extended amount of time?

That depends on the clout the authority that's doing the investigating has. Show up at a starport with a dead passenger and the SPA security guards are apt to ask question. Maybe the world asks the SPA to hand over the suspects. Maybe the SPA will do it, maybe they won't. Maybe the world that the victim is a citizen of will ask for the suspects. It depends.

Two, do Captains have recourse to their own justice while in space? On the one hand, this may be a matter of expediency due to the problems inherent with overlapping jurisdictions. On the other hand, if I was a Captain with a timetable, and an investigation would threaten that timetable... hello, airlock. If you knew who the murderer was.

It depends. Mostly on the local representative of the Imperium (i.e. the local duke). Imperial citizens seem to have a almost 21st Western cultural attitude to right and wrong (at least, that's what all the adventures seem to assume ), so probably not. Try googling some Real World cases of ships showing up at a harbor with dead or missing passengers or crew. But if you want the captain to have the authority to throw people out of the airlock for outraging his moral sensibilities, have the duchy's laws allow that... for that particular duchy.

Three, I believe the former poster was correct in stating that the laws of a vessel adhere to that of its port of registry in our world. But what if you're on a ship registered to Pavabid and you accidentally call their Holy Father an arse? Is that a crime? Do the Pavabidians send you back to Pavabid for prosecution? Or can you claim that you're a citizen of Glisten and it's not a crime there... apply to your consulate even?

I don't think there are any ships run by Pavabidians, but assuming for purposes of argument that there were, I think that would be a crime by Pavabidian law and I think a Pavabidian captain would lock the passenger up and attempt to take him back for trial and sentencing. Whether he'd get away with it is another matter.

A catchall solution would be that passengers/crew could provide affidavits to an Imperial office at a starport and the rules of evidence have been modified to allow such. But that lends its own credibility issues into jurisprudence. Accusation without confrontation is one of the most prohibited canons of American/European law. At the same time, the Imperium is not based in the slightest on those canons so an Imperial noble could likely dispense justice.

Actually, the Imperium derives its customs and laws partly from the Sylean Federation which derived theirs from the Rule of Man which derived theirs partly from the Terran Federation which derived theirs from the United Nations. As I mentioned above, a lot of 21st Century attitudes seem to survive just fine.


Hans

 

[Icosahedron]

It strikes me that this 'law of the flag' is just too messy. Every time you board a ship you have to figure who it belongs to and take a short course in their laws??

I think there would be some universal Ship Law - a sort of maritime law or code of conduct. This may or may not be similar to Imperial Law, but would probably be more detailed.

I can see a captain being able to space someone as a last resort, but he'd have a helluva lot of paperwork to do when he made port.

A body on board could easily get a ship impounded. The owner could then apply to the MoJ for compensation...

 

[rancke]

It strikes me that this 'law of the flag' is just too messy. Every time you board a ship you have to figure who it belongs to and take a short course in their laws??

The 'law of the flag' is also the result of not having any jurisdiction higher than that of individual sovereign nations -- a world government of some sort -- here on Earth. With the Imperium available to provide something like that, this is not a problem for the member worlds.

I think there would be some universal Ship Law - a sort of maritime law or code of conduct. This may or may not be similar to Imperial Law, but would probably be more detailed.

I would suggest that Imperial edicts establish the basic parameters of interstellar law and leave it to the individual duchies to fill in the details. This, plus unequal enforcement, will allow almost any degree of Imperial enforcement that the referee desires, from Practically None to Very Heavyhanded. (It will never be None, of course, since there's always the Imperium itself and the IN).


Hans

 

[Kilgs]

It strikes me that this 'law of the flag' is just too messy. Every time you board a ship you have to figure who it belongs to and take a short course in their laws??

I agree but, while on a ship, you're kinda at the mercy of the captain. The key question is who is going to prosecute it? There is a statement in the new Spinward Marches that the Imperium/MoJ rarely assist in criminal activity that is peculiar to a specific culture's laws. It is also in the Gateway To Destiny sourcebook.

I think there would be some universal Ship Law - a sort of maritime law or code of conduct. This may or may not be similar to Imperial Law, but would probably be more detailed.

I can see a captain being able to space someone as a last resort, but he'd have a helluva lot of paperwork to do when he made port.

That’s a question that is worth some discussion. Would there be a ship-code of norms, traditions or old-timey law that gives the Captain the right to make certain decisions on their vessel? Let’s say a mutiny/hijacking is attempted by a group. The Captain now has a dozen prisoners, no brig, and we’ll say that they are nowhere near an Imperial prison/law enforcement/whatever… maybe they’re a week away by M-drive. Keeping the prisoners on-board is almost a deathtrap, so would the Captain be able to do something to secure the safety of his ship/passengers?

However, the example I was thinking of is a bit more nasty. Say a free trader is out on a run, a murder occurs and they catch the varmint. Now, the captain can lock the guy up until they find a place to put him (maybe weeks away), then when they transfer him get involved in a prosecution that may delay them (time is money…), I can envision a situation where a captain may simply make the call to airlock the guy, legal or not.

-----------------------

Just to clarify, the point of the thread was to invite discussion on the subject. I wasn’t asking for a definition of Imperial law or how it works in YTU. It was part of an idea and I thought it would be a good topic for people to discuss and inspire some adventure ideas. There are a number of different things one could address:

Jurisdiction in J-Space
The original topic and a legal nightmare for constitutionally minded systems.

Captain’s Code
As noted, the old maritime laws of earth made the Captain judge/jury on many ships (in the olden days), that was due to the remote reaches of ship travel and expediency. It was also due to tradition that had grown up over decades/centuries of maritime travel. Now the Imperium has the same type of tradition. Not just the Imperium, I’m thinking of maxims of space travel that have been around before the Imperium and maybe are applied outside the Imperium since it would be a traditional approach. Space travel has been around for a couple thousand years and so something similar to the old maritime traditions might have arisen from that culture.

What happens if such a code exists and a captain tries the case of a crewmember while on ship. Will the local system accept such a judgment? What about the Imperium?

Role of Evidence/Confrontation in a Mobile Society
Generally, the evidence should be valid. Removing the right to confront your accusers and witnesses raises all sorts of possibilities. Obviously, this is going to be different from system to system but maybe the Imperium has a method for handling it.

Let’s say a merchant liner jumps out in a system. They notify the authorities that a murder took place on the ship and they have captured the suspect. They turn him over to the authorities. They provide affidavits, the crew provides eyewitness statements and whatever evidence they have and Imperium/local law is satisfied. The liner jumps out again and the accused awaits trial or is sentenced immediately.

Well, what if the suspect is being framed?

Same scenario but the local law requires that witnesses be confronted by the accused. Merchant liner doesn’t want to stay so does the guy just go free?

 

[Easterner9504]

In Imperium:

Pretty much at any A-C port the infrastructure will be in place to handle crime & punishment except those insane worlds with population 10 and A Starport. etc.


D & E will prove problematic as they may have no more than skeleton staff. But where there's a Newt there's away. Remember those quiet little creatures live on bureaucracy, they got regs for everything.

You show up at infrastructure world, the SSS and MOJ show up take depositions. If no crew involved the ship goes about its lawful ways. If crewman involved they are held as material witnesses: period. Cap'n can hire replacement in port (good opportunity for working passage) If extraordinary crime, major battle or paranormal ship gets impounded. In theory the ship should have insurance for this as well as shippers/consignees or receivers should too. Major Battle would cause auto-grounding by FAA equivalent as gauss, energy weps or explosives detonated require automatic safety/spaceworthness inspection as would engineering or bridge battles. Answer questionnaire "no" and 4mm holes, burn marks found another crime is discovered: filing false documents. So no heavy weapons fired shipboard (take that Munchkins) without repercussions. The Imperium and its bureaucracy could care less about the individual Traveller or ship or crew. Bring them extra work and they'll grind you down, mobility means nothing.

In bad infrastructure worlds or no pop worlds the Cap'n probably has a lot of leeway. In addition the port staff probably has the ability to slap a tracer on the hull that signals authorities at each port visited. Conversely low infrastructure worlds allow crew lot of leeway in 'not declaring a crime' just "He died." bury him and blast-off no questions asked.

 

[rancke]

I agree but, while on a ship, you're kinda at the mercy of the captain. The key question is who is going to prosecute it? There is a statement in the new Spinward Marches that the Imperium/MoJ rarely assist in criminal activity that is peculiar to a specific culture's laws. It is also in the Gateway To Destiny sourcebook.

I'd say that Interstellar travel falls under the Imperium's specific culture, so it may be more interested. However, once again, I'll repeat my suggestion that it depends on the specific duchy. Not because it says so anywhere, but because if it does, every referee can find some place in the Imperium where the laws are exactly as he'd prefer them.

That’s a question that is worth some discussion. Would there be a ship-code of norms, traditions or old-timey law that gives the Captain the right to make certain decisions on their vessel? Let’s say a mutiny/hijacking is attempted by a group. The Captain now has a dozen prisoners, no brig, and we’ll say that they are nowhere near an Imperial prison/law enforcement/whatever… maybe they’re a week away by M-drive. Keeping the prisoners on-board is almost a deathtrap, so would the Captain be able to do something to secure the safety of his ship/passengers?

I'd say that he can order them spaced, but he'll face an inquiry and if the presiding magistrate (or whatever his title is) isn't convinced that it was absolutely necessary, he'll be charged with murder.

However, the example I was thinking of is a bit more nasty. Say a free trader is out on a run, a murder occurs and they catch the varmint. Now, the captain can lock the guy up until they find a place to put him (maybe weeks away), then when they transfer him get involved in a prosecution that may delay them (time is money…), I can envision a situation where a captain may simply make the call to airlock the guy, legal or not.

So can I, but if it's illegal, the captain opens himself up for all sorts of blackmail from the crew. If some of the crew or passengers were NPCs, I'd start rolling for their moral codex and see if they report the captain once they get off the ship.

Captain’s Code
As noted, the old maritime laws of earth made the Captain judge/jury on many ships (in the olden days), that was due to the remote reaches of ship travel and expediency.

How olden? A Royal Navy captain during the Age of Sail was supposed to turn over malefactors for any crime that carried the death penalty to a court-martial of no less than five officers. If he didn't, he might face a court of inquiry and could be court-martialled if he couldn't persuade the admiral that it would have endangered his ship to keep them locked up instead of hanging them out of hand. Usually he'd get away with it, but it still wasn't legal.

What happens if such a code exists and a captain tries the case of a crewmember while on ship. Will the local system accept such a judgment? What about the Imperium?

It depends.


Hans

 

[kafka47]

Well, if you go back to my Play-by-Post adventure (Ultimate Traveller Adventure) here on these boards. You will notice a bunch of individuals who where psionically linked to some sort of machine. Being a fan of Fading Suns clearly psionics and the jumpspace vortex are interelated perhaps even akin to the Sathra Effect.

Gambling is not so much of a starter, as a world's sovereignity ends at 100 diameters and the Imperium neither sanctions nor condons gambling. More exotic blood sports (including some of those mentioned) would have to do with the rights of the citizen in YTU. But, crimes are crimes...and those High Crimes would need some sort of justification for the Imperium does not care about the locale but integrity of the citizen and his/her well being (hence a ruling against murder, rape, etc. would still be applicable) whether in Jumpspace, N-Space or Dirtside.