LBB Book 2 Starship Combat

[Supplement Four]

Another note:

If I use vector combat, then I just use a hex map. I find it easier than using the tape and counting mm's. Velocity is counted in hexes per turn. Start off using one hex is equal to 10,000 km. That way, a 1G burn means 1 hex acceleration. A 3G burn means 3 hexes of movement.

The Mayday system of using past, present, and future markers is helpful to keep vectors straight. After working with them for a bit, I unclutter the board as I can usually see the vector (but this can get tricky is a gravity field is involved--markers best for that).

With combat that happen after long acceleration times, such as my example up thread (where the Corsair is encountered with the player's vessel at a velocity of 15 hexes per turn), you can quickly move off the edge of the hex map.

When this happens--when velocities are large--I just cut out the middle distance to keep the counters on the hex map. I'll add in what was taken out when range is calculated.

For example, two ships may be only five hexes apart on the map, but because the player's vessel has a velocity of 45 (just about the entire length of the map!), I'll cut out 40 hexes, knowing that the true distance is the five hexes on the map plus the missing 40 hexes.

This requires some bookkeeping, but it also keeps your spacecraft on the map on not in the other room.

 

[boomslang]

I like the idea of a missile targeting an enemy missile, though. I suppose if contact is made (a hit is made), then the only damage is destruction of both missiles.

Ah, but then the problem becomes targeting limitations.

Targeting half a dozen incoming missiles (launched from two enemy triple turrets, for example) individually would require writing a (huge, by the way) Target-6 program, and then dedicating six turrets on your own vessel to launch the six anti-missile missiles (while not doing anything else offensively that turn).

Hence, my IR decoys, as above. Kill a whole salvo at once, hopefully, while still observing Target-n program and turret fire control limitations.

OTOH, anti-missile screening is a good task to assign fighters to...

 

[GameDaddy]

I still love the old CT computer rules, too. Most people argue about how archaic and unrealistic they are, and all Traveller versions have dropped them (MT doesn't use them, does it? Can't remember.)

But, they're FUN!

My current handwave is that they're not just single computer apps. They're integrated systems of hardware and software clusters. For example, if you have AutoEvade, then the ship's maneuver thrusters are upgraded injectors for faster response and partially controlled by a integrated sensor package.

That's a lot more believable than the program just being a single piece of software that takes up a large portion of the ship's storage area.

I like the old computer rules... The limited space for storing and running programs very realistically simulates the problem of having the right software running at the right time, with the right guy monitoring that software to ensure nominal systems performance.

It also gives the non-combat oriented players something to do. Any player with the computer skill can write a completely new program or software app for the ship and this gives the the game a wide range of additional options... for example...

The ships Navigation officer writes a sophisticated new program that uses 2 memory... This program recalibrates the ships sensors to pinpoint the location of large quantities of gold and other heavy metals within a 10,000 Km radius.... You see where this is going? ...and that is just one program.

As a GM, I have a notebook full of supplemental programs, some for general ship use, some for exploration, and some for advanced combat.

Question: How did you determine this? Ref fiat? Or are you using some type of Navigation/sensors throw?

CT says Military sensors will detect out to two light seconds (about 600,000 km).

We already have sensors systems that do much better than that. We have sensors that can pick up anything that is navigating under power, and even track large objects like asteroids that are out past the orbit of Uranus.

Basically if it is a spacecraft under power, we can totally detect it well past the orbit of Mars just using Radar. Space is pretty empty you know, and a Radar Interfaced to a computer program that will provide an alert if an object unexpectedly changes course in our solar system has been something we have had since the 1950's or so.

In this particular case I ruled the Zhodani sensors picked up the Ragnarok where it did because you know, that was the edge of the game table. In truth any starship is going to need a collision avoidance system that can detect any objects that may pose a collision hazard and then automatically maneuver to evade such an object while at the same time alerting the ships crew to this new hazard.

Death comes fast in space to the unwary.

I thought you said that you were using CT rules. The CT Space Combat round is 1,000 seconds long. That's 16.67 minutes long. Why 10 minutes?

Mea culpa. Simple math error. I kind of like abstracting this a bit and rounding to a simple number... I suppose 17 minutes would be ok per turn. I like 20 much better though, won't slow down the game just to calculate travel times this way, even if it is a bit off.

Question: Per CT, the M-Drive has fuel for about a month (4 weeks) of standard insystem activity. Why concern yourself with saving fuel now?

Jumping from Efate to Emerald is 5 parsecs, and Ragnarok is a jump-3 capable ship. At some point just before entering the Emerald System Ragnarok was refueled by an Imperial Fuel Tanker.

Now Ragnarok has 40 tons of fuel tankage dedicated just for the maneuver drivers and powerplant. This would power the starship for a month. That works out to a consumption of 10 tons of fuel per week, or about 1.42 tons of fuel a day.

Everytime you are in battle you want to conserve fuel as much as possible.

In this particular Battle, Ragnaroks' fuel tanks were hit frequently and by the end of the battle there was only 10/150 tons of fuel remaining. Ragnarok entered the system with enough fuel to power the maneuever drives and powerplants for up to four months, but by the end of the battle, she would be lucky to fly for a week with the fuel she had remaining.

Lose all your fuel and your powerplant goes down automatically. You can't fire the manuever drives, and jumping is out of the question. There is nothing to power the laser beam batteries, ships lights and sensors, or life support systems, except for the emergency batteries and that is only going to last a few short hours.

Lose your fuel and your fine Starship instantly becomes only salvage and loot.

I guess the base CT rules don't limit the burns a missile can make. A fire missile has enough fuel to travel 4,500,000 km if it needs to and still maneuver (not coast).

It's been a long time since I've read the Missiles supplement, but I remember a limit being placed on missiles--that they could only be used for X number of turns after being fired.

The TL-8 air-to-air missiles we currently use are chemical powered, and can easily exceed 20Gs of acceleration, but only for a limited time, just a few short minutes.

More advanced TL-10 or TL-12 missiles would work similarly. It's going to launch, in null gravity the missile will be vectored in toward the target which may be flying towards it, at an oblique angle from, or flying away from my Starship, and then the missiles will more or less coast at a fixed velocity (CT says 5Gs) only making minor course corrections to ensure enough fuel is available to strike the target.

At some point the onboard computer of the missile will determine it's a good time to strike or contact its target and detonate. It may burn it's remaining fuel accelerating by up to 20Gs for one turn doing some wild weasel manuevers to avoid anti-missile fire, and when it is sufficiently close or if it collides with its target will initiate detonation of the warhead.

With Traveller, you roll your to-hit here. If you miss, the missile doesn't come close enough to the target to detonate, and it doesn't have enough fuel remaining to turn around and have another go at the target, but instead drifts off into the cold depths of space to be forever spent and forgotten.

Now with TL-13 or 14 or above, one could introduce micro-fusion missiles. These babies would have a miniature fusion drives built in, with a maneuiver drive that would allow them to fly for decades in space. You miss with this type of missile, no problem, it simply comes around again, and you have another go at the target. This goes on until the missile is destroyed by anti-missile fire, The target ship Jumps away to another system, or the missile detonates in or near the target.

TL-14 and above, I could see the same micro-missiles being fitted with miniature jump drives and an onboard computers that could calculate the probable jump destination of the target, that would allow the missile to jump as well following and engaging the target in a different star system.

 

[McPerth]

TL-14 and above, I could see the same micro-missiles being fitted with miniature jump drives and an onboard computers that could calculate the probable jump destination of the target, that would allow the missile to jump as well following and engaging the target in a different star system.

If not because any jumping vehicle under 100 dton has been expressely considered impossible by canon. Think that it is the mínimum mass to make a stable jump bubble, or whatever it could be, but (as I've read here seveal times) MM has stated quite clearly that there are no jump crafts under the 100 dton treshold.

 

[McPerth]

Personally I like the vector movement combat. I know it has several complications, but I guess I'm among the masochists that call them spice.

I like the players having to decide among an overpass approach at full trust or leaving more time to the pirates to finish the attacked ship, in the example S4 gives us (very nice BTW).

That's one of the uses fighters may have, to make the first attack at full trust, while the main ship approaches slorwe to halp the attacked ship.

I like having to decide about how much you must accelerate and how much decelerate to reach your target at appropiate speed.

I, in general, like the added complexity and realism vector movement includes to the game.

 

[GameDaddy]

How do you keep track of which missile is targeting which enemy missile, especially when so many are on the playing board?

I like the idea of a missile targeting an enemy missile, though. I suppose if contact is made (a hit is made), then the only damage is destruction of both missiles.

That's a good interpolation of the rules.

I like how your example, too, shows how missiles can be extremely fun in space combat.

And, like the OP said, they become an expensive item to replace once they are expended.

Different colored missile markers. I use q-tips and dab the end in different colors of paint. Each marker can represent whatever you want. For this battle I kept it simple though and didn't allow for split fire from the missiles batteries, requiring that all the missile launchers target just one thing at a time.

During combat, especially with a lot of players, each player will need their own ships log, and will write down maneuver orders and designate targets for laser and missile turrets. If there is alot alot of ships fighting, I would use High Guard's fleet action space combat rules, with a small game like this, each player can see the other player logs as the orders are being executed.

One of the other things I do, especially if there is going to be a large space battle is go to a simultaneous pulse based movement system where players get to choose when they are going to fire lasers, energy weapons, and projectile weapons. They can fire anytime the can move. Movement is counted down, with the fastest ships being able to move more often than the slower ships. Ordanance is always launched last though... new missiles and such.

Movement
10 anything moving at 10g's moves 1 range band
9 anything moving at 10g's and 9g's moves one range band
8 anything that moves 10g's, 9g's, and 8 Gs moves one range band

... and so on

Also one more tweak for my games... If you are running the Anti-Missile program, any operational laser battery gets one shot at destroying an incoming missile. The laser battery only gets to do this once a turn. If two missiles come in, the first may be intercepted and shot down, but it will take the laser battery too long to acquire and track the second incoming missile.

...Of course I would allow a player a chance to override the turret and apply his or her gunnery or missile skill with a difficult rating 10+ challenge in attempting to destroy the incoming missiles... Each additional missile adds one more to the difficulty rating, and when the gunner fails, he's done intercepting incoming missiles until next turn, simply overwhelmed by the sheer volume of incoming missiles.

 

[creativehum]

I haven't had a chance to review this all yet, but thanks so much!
This is all awesome!

After looking over lots of material, I think I'll be introducing the starship combat in stages. I've learned that if you dump too much information for a complex game on players not only is it not fun, but they don't learn it anyway. And usually give up in frustration.

So:

1) Range Bands with the Simple Computer variant from Mayday. (With the Simple Computer rules is that you don't worry about storage or switching programs. You get some base modifiers for having a computer up and running depending on which programs you have on board.)

This will be a simple one-one-one fight to introduce the multiple weapons systems, the DMs that come from range, and the idea that programs offer DMs.

2) Range Bands with full Computer rules.

Probably run it this way two or three times.

Again, these battles will only involve one other ship. This time we'll be digging into the computer program rules. As pointed out above, the computer rules are fun. But it's going to take a couple of tries to see the timing of which one you're using when works within the turn and phasing sequences.

3) Hex based board with full computer rules. (I have to say, the hex based movement integrating the Gs and the Past, Present, and Future position counters is really smart!)

Again, two or three of these one-on-one, just so they can wrap their heads around the notion of vector. I mean, the idea that one can end up moving so fast as to have trouble tacking back is going to be, I bet, a bit of surprise. It'll take some practice to take the idea of planning several turns ahead for movement.

4) Then add a few more ships for the next battle on the hex, or some other elements (a stranded ship, per S4's scenario, and so on). This will be the standard for a while. They should have a grasp of how the system works by then.

5) We might get off the hexes eventually! I'd like too -- but, again, if we're getting enough of the fun and flavor, no need to rush.


i really do want to build in the miniatures war game aspect to the play. Classic Travaller is built on the engine of military SF and I think that makes sense via the miniatures combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

After looking over lots of material, I think I'll be introducing the starship combat in stages. I've learned that if you dump too much information for a complex game on players not only is it not fun, but they don't learn it anyway. And usually give up in frustration.

Sure. I've done that as well. But, how many starship combats are you planning? It sounds like several if you are going to introduce starship combat in stages.

Alternatively, I suggest that you introduce other aspects of the game without starship combat. Go to a planet, do some roleplaying. Do a gunfight. Do some speculative trading. Explore a world. This will all take time--buying you time to become familiar with the starship combat system of your choice.

Then, after the players are comfortable with other parts of the game, surprise 'em with a starship combat.

 

[creativehum]

Sure. I've done that as well. But, how many starship combats are you planning? It sounds like several if you are going to introduce starship combat in stages.

Alternatively, I suggest that you introduce other aspects of the game without starship combat. Go to a planet, do some roleplaying. Do a gunfight. Do some speculative trading. Explore a world. This will all take time--buying you time to become familiar with the starship combat system of your choice.

Then, after the players are comfortable with other parts of the game, surprise 'em with a starship combat.

Yes. Exactly. I had planned nothing different.

But since I want starship combat to be a part of the game, I need a plan for how to introduce it.

I posted the above for anyone else who might be interested in how to introduce starship combat in manageable chunks over time.

 

[elbmc1969]

Excellent discussion.

Yes, flying the missiles to the target matters. You can use them to "herd" a target in a particular direction.

Say your target wants to move to the left as fast as possible. You lead the target so that the missiles will arrive at the point that the target will reach if it thrusts at its maximum. Now, there's a reason for it to thrust at less than maximum, or thrust to the right, etc. In many-on-many combats you can really herd a single target effectively, or cover all of its movement options so that something is going to hit it.

In a way, missiles are player-generated terrain.

 

[creativehum]

Excellent discussion.

Yes, flying the missiles to the target matters. You can use them to "herd" a target in a particular direction.

Say your target wants to move to the left as fast as possible. You lead the target so that the missiles will arrive at the point that the target will reach if it thrusts at its maximum. Now, there's a reason for it to thrust at less than maximum, or thrust to the right, etc. In many-on-many combats you can really herd a single target effectively, or cover all of its movement options so that something is going to hit it.

In a way, missiles are player-generated terrain.

I've yet to have a chance to play a Book 2 spaceship combat, but my guess is (a guess!) that need to make choices about which programs to run, how to handle speed and direction, splitting optimal choices between defense and attack, will provide a tense encounter of sub-optimal choices where you're hoping to catch a lucky break before everything goes to hell.

Either that, or it's incredible boring.
I have no idea yet.

 

[aramis]

I've yet to have a chance to play a Book 2 spaceship combat, but my guess is (a guess!) that need to make choices about which programs to run, how to handle speed and direction, splitting optimal choices between defense and attack, will provide a tense encounter of sub-optimal choices where you're hoping to catch a lucky break before everything goes to hell.

Either that, or it's incredible boring.
I have no idea yet.

Depending upon the skills of the GM and players, both and all points in between.my experience is that it usually is too cerebral for most of my players, and notnearly chess-like enough for the others.

 

[creativehum]

Depending upon the skills of the GM and players, both and all points in-between. My experience is that it usually is too cerebral for most of my players, and not nearly chess-like enough for the others.

An excellent way of putting it.