LBB size

[plazman30]

I'm trying to go the POD route for my legally purchased PDFs off the official CD-ROM for FFE.

I'm trying to determine the exact size of the original LBBs. The Traveller Wiki says they are "Digest Size," which makes them 5.5"×8.5". But then later in the same article is says they're "half-quatro" size, which would make them 5.5"×9".

The PDF has a mix of pages sizes in it.

The cover is 5.76"×8.48". The interior pages are 5.65"×8.3". And any added pages from FFE are 5.5"×8.5".

If I'm going to go through the trouble to POD these, I'd like to get as close a match to the original books as possible.

The new Book 9 that just came out says it's "as close as possible" to the size of the original LBB, which makes me think they're not exactly digest sized.

Anyone have an LBB they can measure?

 

[Spinward Flow]

The Traveller Wiki says they are "Digest Size," which makes them 5.5"×8.5".

The original LBBs were printed "sideways" on standard 8.5x11 inch paper that was then folded in half at the middle of the short axis and staple bound through the fold.

Hence ... 11/2 = 5.5x8.5 inches

Once the books were bound, they presumably went through an edge cutting machine to square off the edges (so the pages in the middle of the bind didn't stick out further than the cover when the LBB was closed) before getting boxed up for shipping to retailers. This would then mean (inevitably) that when the books were open, the pages towards the center would be narrower than the pages towards the cover (due to packing losses when folding paper). This was actually helpful when using the books, since it meant that (while open) the pages were easier to thumb through to find the page you were looking for (cut to same length while closed means cut to different lengths while open). So if you pulled the staples out and compared the sizes of the pages in a LBB, they would all be subtly different depending on where they were located within the binding.

It's a technique called Saddle Stitch Binding.

Needless to say, some of the downsides to Saddle Stitch Binding are:

• Limited Page Count: Saddle stitch is not suitable for publications with a high page count.
• No Spine Printing: There is no spine to print on, which can limit display options.
• Durability: While still sturdy, saddle stitch may not be as durable as perfect binding, especially for long-term use.

The PDF has a mix of pages sizes in it.

Side effect of who was doing the quality control of the scans.
Not everyone was as ... meticulous ... as they should have been.

 

[whartung]

Regardless, if the pages are printed and scaled to the actual paper size, I doubt you would notice a practical difference.

Sure, if you put one of your pages up against an original, they maybe off, but for all practical purposes, they would be fine.

Also, check out the LWB from DTRPG, it's free to dowload the PDF, and they POD (I assume it was POD) it as a perfect bound volume. I have not measured mine, but its wonderful. That may give some insight.

 

[plazman30]

The original LBBs were printed "sideways" on standard 8.5x11 inch paper that was then folded in half at the middle of the short axis and staple bound through the fold.

Hence ... 11/2 = 5.5x8.5 inches

Once the books were bound, they presumably went through an edge cutting machine to square off the edges (so the pages in the middle of the bind didn't stick out further than the cover when the LBB was closed) before getting boxed up for shipping to retailers. This would then mean (inevitably) that when the books were open, the pages towards the center would be narrower than the pages towards the cover (due to packing losses when folding paper). This was actually helpful when using the books, since it meant that (while open) the pages were easier to thumb through to find the page you were looking for (cut to same length while closed means cut to different lengths while open). So if you pulled the staples out and compared the sizes of the pages in a LBB, they would all be subtly different depending on where they were located within the binding.

It's a technique called Saddle Stitch Binding.

Needless to say, some of the downsides to Saddle Stitch Binding are:

• Limited Page Count: Saddle stitch is not suitable for publications with a high page count.
• No Spine Printing: There is no spine to print on, which can limit display options.
• Durability: While still sturdy, saddle stitch may not be as durable as perfect binding, especially for long-term use.

Side effect of who was doing the quality control of the scans.
Not everyone was as ... meticulous ... as they should have been.

I had a friend measure his LBB, and it's 8 7/10 × 5 8/10, so it's not quite 8½×5½. It's a little bigger. Odd that it's not exactly digest size. I know the UK versions of some of the LBBs were A5 sized.

 

[plazman30]

Regardless, if the pages are printed and scaled to the actual paper size, I doubt you would notice a practical difference.

Sure, if you put one of your pages up against an original, they maybe off, but for all practical purposes, they would be fine.

Also, check out the LWB from DTRPG, it's free to dowload the PDF, and they POD (I assume it was POD) it as a perfect bound volume. I have not measured mine, but its wonderful. That may give some insight.

I own the LWB. I dislike A5/Digest size books that are perfect bound. They're a pain in the *ss to keep open. It looks like the LBBs, at least the first 3, we exactly 48 pages internally, which is the maximum size most POD publishers will do for saddle stapling.

 

[spank]

I've been wanting a physical copy of Signal GK and Secrets of the Ancients, They seem to be rarer than the other adventures. And's I don't want to pay $80 for a copy. So, I've put a ruler on a few LBBs recently.
I get 5.75 X 8.75.
Which is 1/4" under 6" x 9", which is a common printing size, Octavo
https://papersizes.io/books/octavo
Which is half of Quarto or 12 X 9.5", well half with the margins trimmed.
This goes back to how books were printed before modern printers, which involved printing on one large sheet then folding it 1 2 or 3 times, then trimming the edge to make multiple pages at once.
Print once,
Fold thrice,
Cut twice,
16 pages.

The original LBBs were printed "sideways" on standard 8.5x11 inch paper that was then folded in half at the middle of the short axis and staple bound through the fold.

Hence ... 11/2 = 5.5x8.5 inches

Once the books were bound, they presumably went through an edge cutting machine to square off the edges (so the pages in the middle of the bind didn't stick out further than the cover when the LBB was closed) before getting boxed up for shipping to retailers. This would then mean (inevitably) that when the books were open, the pages towards the center would be narrower than the pages towards the cover (due to packing losses when folding paper). This was actually helpful when using the books, since it meant that (while open) the pages were easier to thumb through to find the page you were looking for (cut to same length while closed means cut to different lengths while open). So if you pulled the staples out and compared the sizes of the pages in a LBB, they would all be subtly different depending on where they were located within the binding.

It's a technique called Saddle Stitch Binding.

Needless to say, some of the downsides to Saddle Stitch Binding are:

• Limited Page Count: Saddle stitch is not suitable for publications with a high page count.
• No Spine Printing: There is no spine to print on, which can limit display options.
• Durability: While still sturdy, saddle stitch may not be as durable as perfect binding, especially for long-term use.

Side effect of who was doing the quality control of the scans.
Not everyone was as ... meticulous ... as they should have been.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I remember Twilight's Peak (LBB A3) feeling HEAVY compared to the other LBBs ... in part because it was 64 pages, which was just about the limit of what you could do with Saddle Stitch Binding as far as page count was concerned.

LBB1 was 44 pages.
LBB2 and 3 were 48 pages.

Consequently, the staple binding on LBB A3 typically "failed faster" than with other books, due to the higher page count.

 

[spank]

OK,
Here's a page from one of the rattiest adventures I own,
8 3/4" by 5 11/16"
It is a center page, so it's trimmed more on the short edge, because that edge sticks out further when the book is folded.

I remember Twilight's Peak (LBB A3) feeling HEAVY compared to the other LBBs ... in part because it was 64 pages, which was just about the limit of what you could do with Saddle Stitch Binding as far as page count was concerned.

LBB1 was 44 pages.
LBB2 and 3 were 48 pages.

Consequently, the staple binding on LBB A3 typically "failed faster" than with other books, due to the higher page count.

 

[spank]

As I said,
the LBBs I've measured come to 5.75" x 8.75"
From looking at printing a few booklet myself I've found a few things,
1) The scanned pages are not centered. Here is an example {on the left} where I overlaid all the pages, Except art, from an adventure. {bonus point if you can guess the adventure} As you can see there is a bit of variation in how they are centered on the page. To fix this I hit on the idea of re-centering all the pages by using a fixed point. I settled on the page number. See the RT hand example. This looks much better, but....
2) Different pages are still be different sizes. So i am going to make a template that will print at the right size, with an indicator to align the pages in using the page number as a target. I am looking at either getting some paper of the correct size and setting the printer up to print on it, or printing on 11"X17" and cutting it down. I think getting paper that is 5.75" X 8.75" will be better, because it will be easier to align the front and back. I think the template will need to be 1/2" smaller because the printer will insist on adding margins.
3) One additional wrinkle: There seem to be "left pages" and "right pages" the page number seems to be offset about 1/8" towards the outside edge of the page, but that could just be slop in the printing process. The page numbers are ~5/8" from the bottom of the page on center, and ~2.875" from the edge of the page. So, Knowing that I think you could do a decent job of building correctly sized pages to print.

 

[plazman30]

I used some software at my disposal to convert Books 0, 1, 2 and 3 to US Digest size. I then made new covers for them and ordered 4 POD saddle stitched/stapled books. I'll post some pics when they come in the mail.

The quality of the 1981 LLB scans off the CD-ROM is really quite good.

 

[plazman30]

I remember Twilight's Peak (LBB A3) feeling HEAVY compared to the other LBBs ... in part because it was 64 pages, which was just about the limit of what you could do with Saddle Stitch Binding as far as page count was concerned.

LBB1 was 44 pages.
LBB2 and 3 were 48 pages.

Consequently, the staple binding on LBB A3 typically "failed faster" than with other books, due to the higher page count.

That's interesting. My original D&D Moldvay Basic set book was 65 pages and saddle stitched. It seemed to hold together relatively well.

 

[whartung]

My original D&D Moldvay Basic set book was 65 pages and saddle stitched

Saddle stitched is different from staples, however.

 

[spank]

They call it saddle stitching, But it's stables.

https://www.cpcprintpromo.com/saddle-stitch-versus-perfect-bound/

Modern examples don't use a staples, but use wire, which is pushed thru the paper and folded to make, well, a staple.

Saddle stitched is different from staples, however.

 

[spank]

I was thinking about that, It might have to do with how tightly it's stapled.
Maybe,
It's just a theory.

That's interesting. My original D&D Moldvay Basic set book was 65 pages and saddle stitched. It seemed to hold together relatively well.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I was thinking about that, It might have to do with how tightly it's stapled.
Maybe,
It's just a theory.

The original LBBs were stapled more like the right side of this image.
A tighter staple like the left side of this image would be superior for binding longevity.

 

[plazman30]

Saddle stitched is different from staples, however.

My understanding is that they are the exact same thing

 

[spank]

A difference with out distinction......

My understanding is that they are the exact same thing

 

[plazman30]

So here was my first attempt at doing an LBB POD. This is saddle stitch, POD done in digest size (5.5×8.5). I messed up the cover, but this will give you an idea of the potential.

So, clearly there is enough detail in the scans to make POD LBBs. But there are a few problems:

1. DriveThruRPG will not do saddle stitch POD books, so Mongoose would need to use another service such as Lulu. I know that DriveThruRPG has a better royalty rate if you exclusively distribute through them. So, if Mongoose wanted to offer these as an option on a service such as Lulu.com, it might impact their revenue from DriveThruRPG.
2. I can't find a POD publisher that will do a saddle stitch POD book greater than 48 internal pages. So, you could easily do Book 0, 1, 2, and 3. But Book 4 won't work.

I placed a POD order for books 0-3 and am waiting for them to come in. I completely redid the cover to make sure that all 4 books would match. And I remembered to add the text to the back cover.

When those come in, I'll post some pics. I'm having these done at Lulu.com.

If @MongooseMatt wants to offer these as a Lulu POD for customers, I'll be happy to share the files I created. All you'd need to do is create an account and upload the files I made.

I don't feel offering the LBBs as a POD on DriveThruRPG is a good idea, since they'd be perfect-bound. I think they really need to be saddle-stitched for the proper LBB experience. Saddle-stitched books will also lie flat on the table. Perfect-bound will close on you as soon as you let go of it.

I have to assume the files on the CD-ROM are the same ones for sale on DriveThruRPG right now.

EDIT: I covered the outside of the LBB in contact paper, which is what I do with all softcover RPG books I buy, to help preserve them.

 

[plazman30]

And now it's time to take a crack at the GDW 301 box. Can anyone that owns the box measure it? I'd also need a clean h-res scan of the image on the bottom of the box.

 

[whartung]

Is that plastic coating on the cover done by you or the printer? (I assume that was a plastic coating.)

At a glance, that looks really good.

How much was the printing?