CT Only: LBB2 pages 19-20 Yacht

[snrdg082102]

Hello all,

I've run the LBB2 yacht through my spreadsheet and crossed checked using pencil, several sheets of paper, and calculator and my luck is still holding with my MCr matching LBB2 and the Consolidated CT Errata page 8.

The one area I'm not matching again is the steward.

LBB2 page 20 has the crew with one steward and Consolidated CT Errata page 8 indicates that a steward is not required unless it is used in commercial service.

Per LBB2 page 20 the yacht has 14 staterooms, two of which have been combined into a suite for the owner. The actual total of staterooms available for crew and passengers would be 12.

The required crew is 3 prior to adding a steward is pilot, engineer, and medic. In commercial service each crew member requires a stateroom bring the total to 9 staterooms for passengers not counting the owner's suite. The number of stewards required is roundup(9/8,0) = roundup(1.125,0) = 2.

Adding 2 steward brings the total of the crew total to 5, which drops the available staterooms to 7, which then drops the number of stewards to 1.

Personal opinion is that a steward, probably a valet or maid, would be part of the crew when the owner is onboard or when someone occupied the owner's suite.

So now my spreadsheet tells me I need 2 stewards, but when I add the 2 the number drops to 1. Any suggestions how I might work this out.

 

[Timerover51]

Double bunk the stewards, or chalk it up to Catch-22.

I would agree with the requirement for a steward if the owner is onboard or the owner suite is occupied.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening timerover51,

Thank you for your suggestion.

Double bunk the stewards, or chalk it up to Catch-22.

I would agree with the requirement for a steward if the owner is onboard or the owner suite is occupied.

When the yacht is being used commercially each crew member, per LBB 2 page 14 B. Staterooms, must have one stateroom. As a guess I would say that the owner's suite of two staterooms and the non-crew staterooms would be for high passengers. This being the case at least 1 steward would be part of the crew.

Thank you for confirming that my though of the owner's suite being used to transport passengers or a privately-owned starship would have at least one steward.

Now, I'll have to figure out a logic function to take the yacht into account.

 

[Timerover51]

After thinking about it, I would count the owner's stateroom as two, and if needed, carry the two stewards, even if the owner simply had 7 guests onboard. If a yacht owner is aboard with a bunch of guests, you are going to need two stewards to provide 24 hour a day coverage of their wants and desires. My recommendation would be that at least one of them, if not both, have Steward-2 or higher skill level. If the owner is not onboard, but his/her stateroom is occupied, then again two stewards. If not occupied, then one steward, maybe. If someone is a guest on a yacht, they are going to expect 24 hour a day personal service.

I would argue that regular commercial requirements do not apply to private yachts, but they are at the discretion of the owner.

 

[aramis]

The Yacht is described in relation to its passengers thusly: "The ship can carry up to 9 passengers in non-commercial service." (TTB, p. 65)

 

[rancke]

I would argue that regular commercial requirements do not apply to private yachts, but they are at the discretion of the owner.

And when you design a ship, you calculate with the crew you expect the ship to carry. So even if manning laws don't apply, or only apply in part, to private ships, the designer of, for instance, a yacht, may still calculate with the expected retinue of a yacth-owner, which could include a steward, a medic, and a secretary (who might count as a second steward).


Hans

 

[Spinward Scout]

So now my spreadsheet tells me I need 2 stewards, but when I add the 2 the number drops to 1. Any suggestions how I might work this out.

Use a Robot with the Steward program. It can work whenever it isn't charging and doesn't need a stateroom. Also, the Noble who owns the Yacht can show off his/her/its shiny new Robot. Or the Robot can stay in the galley and cook, fold table cloths, wash dishes, etc... while the live Steward interacts with people.

Chinese Robot Cook Wows Customers

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello timerover51, aramis, rancke, and Spinward Scout,

After thinking about it, I would count the owner's stateroom as two, and if needed, carry the two stewards, even if the owner simply had 7 guests onboard. If a yacht owner is aboard with a bunch of guests, you are going to need two stewards to provide 24 hour a day coverage of their wants and desires. My recommendation would be that at least one of them, if not both, have Steward-2 or higher skill level. If the owner is not onboard, but his/her stateroom is occupied, then again two stewards. If not occupied, then one steward, maybe. If someone is a guest on a yacht, they are going to expect 24 hour a day personal service.

My first inclination was to count the owner's suite as two staterooms, then I thought about yachts and high-end homes/apartments shown on the DIY, HGTV, and other shows where spaces are combined. I also dug through my FASA deck plans and T4 Naval Architect's Manual.

The combined rooms lost there original function. One of the staterooms in the deck plans was converted into a high end bedroom and the other stateroom lost the bed and fresher becoming a combined living room, kitchen, dining area or something similar. The more staterooms combined the more changes made.

That is why I am considering the owner's suite to be one stateroom, of course I may have the whole concept wrong.

I would argue that regular commercial requirements do not apply to private yachts, but they are at the discretion of the owner.

If the owner takes onboard one or more paying customers I consider based on the rules the owner is doing business which is a commercial endeavor. Of course timerover51 your argument is also valid.

The Yacht is described in relation to its passengers thusly: "The ship can carry up to 9 passengers in non-commercial service." (TTB, p. 65)

Thank you aramis for providing the information from TTB, which indicates that I really need to move purchasing the CT CD-ROM to the top of my wish list.

What is the number of crew required for the yacht in TTB?

Being a yacht I guessing that the 9 passengers would be considered high passage ticket holders. If my guess is right the normal compliment is (9/8) = 1.125 or rounding up 2 stewards. This puts the total crew at 5. In my imagination the medic has a stateroom that doubles as sickbay. The pilot and engineer probably shares one and the two stewards share another one. Of course there are other combination.

Which brings me back to commercial service and the crew compliment would drop the crew requirement to 4 with 8 high passage staterooms.

I'd say that the yacht in LBB2 might need a little more added to what is currently in Consolidated CT Errata.

Originally Posted by timerover51
I would argue that regular commercial requirements do not apply to private yachts, but they are at the discretion of the owner.

And when you design a ship, you calculate with the crew you expect the ship to carry. So even if manning laws don't apply, or only apply in part, to private ships, the designer of, for instance, a yacht, may still calculate with the expected retinue of a yacht-owner, which could include a steward, a medic, and a secretary (who might count as a second steward).


Hans

Thank you Hans for providing another job description of who the second steward might be. I was thinking of the second steward along the same lines, of course my first thought was maid since I'm reading Mike Shepard's Kris Longknife series. Another thought is that the second steward might be a body guard or some such.

Originally Posted by snrdg082102
So now my spreadsheet tells me I need 2 stewards, but when I add the 2 the number drops to 1. Any suggestions how I might work this out.

Use a Robot with the Steward program. It can work whenever it isn't charging and doesn't need a stateroom. Also, the Noble who owns the Yacht can show off his/her/its shiny new Robot. Or the Robot can stay in the galley and cook, fold table cloths, wash dishes, etc... while the live Steward interacts with people.

Chinese Robot Cook Wows Customers

Thanks Spinward Scout for an alternate solution that I hadn't considered. Of course one of the reasons I hadn't thought about robots is my mind set is for the Third Imperium, which I seem to recall isn't all that into robots. Another item is that from a couple of books in my collection using a live person was a show of status among the rich and powerful.


Thank you all for your suggestions, I've got a lot to ponder on.

 

[aramis]

A yacht isn't licensed for commercial service, so the high passengers don't hold tickets. They are guests of the (usually) owner, possibly including his batman/valet and chef.

Here's the whole TTB entry for the Yacht:

Yacht (type Y): Built on the 200-ton hull, the yacht is a
noble's plaything used to entertain friends and undertake
political or commercial missions. It mounts jump drive-A,
maneuver drive-A, and power plant-A, giving performance
of jump-1 and 1-G acceleration. Fuel tankage of 50 tons
supports the power plant and allows two successive jump-1.
Adjacent to the bridge is a model/1 computer. There are
fourteen staterooms (two have been combined into a suite
for the owner) and no low berths. There is one hardpoint
and one ton allocated for fire control. No weaponry is
installed. There are three ship's vehicles: an airlraft, a
30-ton ship's boat, and an ATV. The ship's boat is fitted to
ferry the ATV from orbit to surface and back. Cargo
capacity is 11 tons. The yacht is unstreamlined.
The yacht requires a crew of four: pilot, engineer,
medic, and steward. Additional stewards, gunners, navigators
and other personnel may be added. The steward
operates the ship's boat, the air/raft, and the ATV. The ship
can carry up to 9 passengers in non-commercial service. The
yacht costs MCr51.057 (including 10% discount for standard
designs) and takes 11 months to build.​

 

[McPerth]

Remember they are not passengers but owner's (probably a noble) guests, and I guess that as such they can expect quite fine service, probably better than in a comercial ship.

But, as pointed in other threads, I've always thought the minimal stewards should be 3 (for 3 shifts), as any pesky passenger can be quite stressful for a single steward, that also needs some time for himself (at least sleeping time). A steward (or anyone else, for what's worth) too stressed and with lack of sleep is likely to (at least) lose his manners, something you don't want.

 

[Timerover51]

Remember they are not passengers but owner's (probably a noble) guests, and I guess that as such they can expect quite fine service, probably better than in a comercial ship.

But, as pointed in other threads, I've always thought the minimal stewards should be 3 (for 3 shifts), as any pesky passenger can be quite stressful for a single steward, that also needs some time for himself (at least sleeping time). A steward (or anyone else, for what's worth) too stressed and with lack of sleep is likely to (at least) lose his manners, something you don't want.

You have a very valid point there, but you have the limitations on the number of staterooms, unless you double up the crew or otherwise modify the yacht. I guess I always viewed the yacht as something that was not really a standard design, but a basic starting point to work from. I can also see a 600 dTon liner being used as a yacht, or a modified 400 dTon Subsidized Merchant. Consider how a planetary governor or ruler would like to travel, and what he/she might travel with.

The steward operates the ship's boat, the air/raft, and the ATV.

Aramis, I have always thought that puts way too many skills on the Steward, and assume that the yacht's pilot handles the ship's boat. In actuality, the yacht needs a larger than standard crew to properly cater to the needs of the passengers.

 

[snrdg082102]

Afternoon PDT aramis and McPerth,

Thank you aramis for the full description from TTB, and I feel that perhaps the Consolidated CT Errata may want to be changed to reflect the bits that are different.

A yacht isn't licensed for commercial service, so the high passengers don't hold tickets. They are guests of the (usually) owner, possibly including his batman/valet and chef.

Here's the whole TTB entry for the Yacht:

Yacht (type Y): Built on the 200-ton hull, the yacht is a noble's plaything used to entertain friends and undertake political or commercial missions. It mounts jump drive-A, maneuver drive-A, and power plant-A, giving performance of jump-1 and 1-G acceleration. Fuel tankage of 50 tons supports the power plant and allows two successive jump-1. Adjacent to the bridge is a model/1 computer. There are fourteen staterooms (two have been combined into a suite for the owner) and no low berths. There is one hardpoint and one ton allocated for fire control. No weaponry is installed. There are three ship's vehicles: an air/raft, a 30-ton ship's boat, and an ATV. The ship's boat is fitted to ferry the ATV from orbit to surface and back. Cargo capacity is 11 tons. The yacht is unstreamlined. The yacht requires a crew of four: pilot, engineer, medic, and steward. Additional stewards, gunners, navigators and other personnel may be added. The steward operates the ship's boat, the air/raft, and the ATV. The ship can carry up to 9 passengers in non-commercial service. The yacht costs MCr51.057 (including 10% discount for standard designs) and takes 11 months to build.

Per Consolidated CT Errata page 8: "The yacht does not require a steward unless it is used in commercial service." Which is why I included the bit about commercial service.

The wealthy person that owns the yacht in my open a high passage berth which requires 1 steward.

I'm guessing here but I feel that each guest is also taking up a high passage berth which is where the second steward comes in to play. Of course if each of the owner's brings an assistant of some type then there are five high passage berths and the four of the assistants take over two staterooms and the fifth servant bunks with the crew member who has a single stateroom.

Remember they are not passengers but owner's (probably a noble) guests, and I guess that as such they can expect quite fine service, probably better than in a commercial ship.

But, as pointed in other threads, I've always thought the minimal stewards should be 3 (for 3 shifts), as any pesky passenger can be quite stressful for a single steward, that also needs some time for himself (at least sleeping time). A steward (or anyone else, for what's worth) too stressed and with lack of sleep is likely to (at least) lose his manners, something you don't want.

The medic could handle some of the duties of the steward when there weren't any patients to be pocked and prodded.

Thanks again for the comments.

 

[aramis]

If you put it into commercial service, you add 1 steward for the 8 passengers. Real simple.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello aramis,

Due to my fat fingers and constant re-writing of my words I'm now on my fifth attempt to reply.

If you put it into commercial service, you add 1 steward for the 8 passengers. Real simple.

Based on the wording on LBB2 page 4 I feel that high, middle, and low passages apply only to ships in commercial service.

Ship's like the far trader, subsidized merchant, and subsidized liner being in commercial service and with the potential of transporting high passage individuals per the crew rules should have at least one steward for the first eight carried, additional stewards are required at 1 per 8 high passengers rounding up.

Based on the rules for high passage, stewards and details provided for the yacht on LBB2 pages 19-20 I feel that stewards do not fall under the crew rule for stewards. The pilot, engineer, and medic I agree with the material are crew which and here is how I think the staterooms are occupied.

Staterooms 1 & 2: Owner's suite
Stateroom 3: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 4: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 5: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 6: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 7: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 8: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 9: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 10: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 11: Steward in non-commercial use is in my opinion a passenger since they are only required when in commercial service and there is the potential of carrying high passengers.

Crew
Stateroom 12: Pilot
Stateroom 13: Engineer
Stateroom 14: Medic (doubles as sickbay)

Non-commercial ships can use double occupancy and if one applied the steward crew rule (Owner + 8 passengers) = 9. Roundup(9/8,0) = Roundup(1.125,0) = 2 stewards.

Staterooms 1 & 2: Owner's suite
Stateroom 3: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 4: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 5: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 6: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 7: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 8: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 9: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 10: Guest/passenger
Stateroom 11: 2x Steward

Crew
Stateroom 12: Pilot
Stateroom 13: Engineer
Stateroom 14: Medic (doubles as sickbay)

The yacht being in non-commercial service requires a crew of three. One steward is carried as a passenger when the owner is onboard. A second steward is carried as a passenger when any of the eight available staterooms are occupied.

In commercial service each crew member requires a single occupancy stateroom. If owner and the eight occupants in the remaining staterooms are considered high passengers then the nine high passengers requires 2 stewards. Since each crew member requires a stateroom one of the staterooms drops the high passengers down to 8 and then only one steward is needed.

The only way I see that a yacht in commercial service must have a steward as part of the crew is by carrying 8 high passage individuals, which leaves a stateroom unoccupied.

Does the definition for high passage and the requirement for a steward apply to non-commercial ships like a yacht?

 

[Carlobrand]

... The only way I see that a yacht in commercial service must have a steward as part of the crew is by carrying 8 high passage individuals, which leaves a stateroom unoccupied. ...

Well, or plan for some mid-passages. Sometimes the hoity toity travel with their own personal secretaries and such; they might not want steward service for those.

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Carlobrand,

Well, or plan for some mid-passages. Sometimes the hoity toity travel with their own personal secretaries and such; they might not want steward service for those.

I had thought about adding middle passage to the one open stateroom after I had made my post. With five failed attempts to reply under my belt I decided to leave well enough alone.

I'm still trying to figure out if high, middle, and low, passages apply to non-commercial ships such as the yacht or scout/courier. I'm leaning towards saying that those three passage types do not apply which would mean stewards are not needed as part of the crew.

If someone takes money for passage from a person then the passages apply.

 

[aramis]

There are 4 kinds of passage referenced in all Traveller corebooks

• Low - this means travelling as a popsicle
• Middle - A stateroom to oneself
• High - Stateroom to oneself and steward services
• Working - Stateroom, usually to oneself but not always, and duties to perform

Several additional forms appear in various other materials or in specific corebooks

• Luxury - Stateroom to oneself, steward service, some extras not mentioned in specific over high passage. Prices begin at KCr20.
• Steerage - 1/2 Td to 1Td cargo space. TNE sets price at KCr2.5. Notes that it was illegal in the 3I
• Double Occupancy Mid - shared stateroom, 2 bodies, no or limited steward service. Prices run Cr6500 (T20)
• Double Occupancy High - Shared stateroom, 2 bodies, steward service. Price KCr8 (T20).

Luxury passages are mentioned in a couple adventures.
Steerage is TNE.
DO Mids are TNE & T20.
DO High are T20.
High in small staterooms of 2Td are in TNE, but are not allowed in the Imperium. (t20's DO high is in fact a direct reinterpretation of this; the DO passages therein are my fault.)

 

[mike wightman]

There is also the one in Alien Realms...

twenty per bay, sleeping on straw and cooking own food - Cr.5000 per head.

Which shows that Imperial passenger regulations are just guidelines within the setting

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning aramis and Mike Wightman,

Thank you both for providing more information on the three types of paying passage mentioned in Traveller.

The discussion has hinted that the yacht's steward as a status symbol for the owner, however the rules for a ship crews, at least in my opinion, does not say the position is required. At best the steward is only needed when the owner and/or guests are onboard.

When the owner charges a fee then I agree that a steward is required.

I'm not sure how to re-word the steward crew requirement to cover yacht's or other privately-owned ships.