LBB3 Questions

[ShapeShifter]

1) What exactly does the expression 2D-7 accomplish? I got into a huge argument about this very thing with math majors who insist that it creates a range of -5 to 5, that is {2...12}-7, but, as I pointed out, those results don't make sense in terms of the tables provided. I think it means a range of 0-5, but if that's true why didn't MWM just write 1D-1, since that would also generate 0-5? It's been a long night and perhaps I've been staring at the LBB too long.

2) are the governmental forms elaborated on in any canon literature or magazine articles? The descriptions are very spare and I would benefit from illustrations or historical exempla.

TIA.

 

[Ranger]

1) What exactly does the expression 2D-7 accomplish? I got into a huge argument about this very thing with math majors who insist that it creates a range of -5 to 5, that is {2...12}-7, but, as I pointed out, those results don't make sense in terms of the tables provided. I think it means a range of 0-5, but if that's true why didn't MWM just write 1D-1, since that would also generate 0-5? It's been a long night and perhaps I've been staring at the LBB too long.

2) are the governmental forms elaborated on in any canon literature or magazine articles? The descriptions are very spare and I would benefit from illustrations or historical exempla.

TIA.

Using 2D-7 gives you a very different probability range than 1D-5. Using 1D-5 you have an equal chance of getting any single value as a result. Using 2D-7 gives you a grater than 50% chance of getting 0 as a reslut, and a roughly 3% chance of getting 5 as a result.

 

[robject]

What he said. Remember that 2d6 is a rough sort of bell-curve-like thing (not exactly but close enough). Subtracting 7 from that just moves all of the values down 7...

It's a way of "centering" this pseudo-bell-curve on 0 instead of 7. In T5 parlance, it's called "flux", and is equivalent to 1d6 - 1d6.

 

[ShapeShifter]

It would have been far simpler if MWM would have simply written:

02...0
03...0
04...0
05...0
06...0
07...0
08...1
09...2
10...3
11...4
12...5

My very first generated world has some idiosyncracies that may take some hard-core creativity to reconcile. I hope that my first attempt was well-done.

Starport E
Naval Base ---
Scout Base ---
GG yes

Size (5), 5000 miles in diameter
Atmo (5), thin
Hydro (6), 60% water
Pop (6), 1-9 millions
Govt (9), Impersonal bureaucracy (an example of this would be helpful)
Law (9), no weapons beyond home
Tech (6)

Ag, Non-Ind

I'm not sure how such a low-tech world would have a starport, unless it was from Others beyond their home world.

Such severe law for an agricultural, non-industrial society seems odd.

The nature of "impersonal bureaucracy" is troublesome. Perhaps it is composed of the visitors to their world who built the starport and form the bureaucratic govt, imposing their will on the natives.

Thanks for the posts thus far!

 

[far-trader]

What exactly does the expression 2D-7...

...with a + modifier right? In UWP generation. So...

It would have been far simpler if MWM would have simply written:

02...0
03...0
04...0
05...0
06...0
07...0
08...1
09...2
10...3
11...4
12...5

...wouldn't quite work would it? A roll of (2D-7 + mod) would generate different results if the 2D roll was 3 taken as: (3 - 7 + mod) rather than (0 + mod). Maybe not often enough to matter much, haven't checked the math, since any final result of less than zero is zero.

...are the governmental forms elaborated on in any canon literature or magazine articles? The descriptions are very spare and I would benefit from illustrations or historical exempla.

I'm sure they are, somewhere (JTAS? Dragon mag? TML? I'm sure I've seen it somewhere... )

 

[rancke]

My very first generated world has some idiosyncracies that may take some hard-core creativity to reconcile. I hope that my first attempt was well-done.

I've had my share of complaints about odd UWPs, but this one doesn't seem to present any problems.

Starport E: A bare spot of bedrock or a slab of concrete strong enough to bear a starship plus a radio beacon. The locals could easily build something like that themselves. Class E means no facilities of any kind (Which, when you come to think of it, makes it very difficult for a non-desert world to NOT have at least a Class D starport. All you need for that is to locate the starport next to a source of water. How hard can that be? Of course, there's always the "it's deliberate" angle, but that has implications in terms of local attitude towards outsiders that you may not like).

Size (5), 5000 miles in diameter
Atmo (5), thin
Hydro (6), 60% water

Nothing strange there. The world is large enough to retain air and water. Except for the gravity being a tad low, this could be a fairly Earthlike world.

Pop (6), 1-9 millions
Govt (9), Impersonal bureaucracy (an example of this would be helpful)

Impersonal Bureaucracy means that the population have little imput in how their government officials are selected. Jim Hacker's Britain would be an example: Ministers come and go but the permanent undersecretaries run the bureaucracy. (Note that the government calssifications is what the Scouts think of them, not what they profess themselves to be).

Such severe law for an agricultural, non-industrial society seems odd.

Odd as in "needs to be explained", not odd as in "can't be explained". For example:

* Law level is what applies closest to the starport. In this case, it applies in the city, not the farmland around. Except that people need a licence to carry even a shotgun, and while local farmers have no problems getting one, foreigners might just as well forget about it (Or there's a residency requirement or a 6 day waiting period! )

* Farms are large mechanized places run by a downtrodden class of serfs.

* The rural regions recently lost a civil war against the central government.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The two term expression 2D-7 is part of a 3 term math phrase, 2D-7+Size, or 2D-7+Pop, or 2D-7+Gov

2d-7 produces a range of results histographed as follows:
–5: ⚀
–4: ⚀⚁
–3: ⚀⚁⚂
–2: ⚀⚁⚂⚃
–1: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄
+0: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄⚅
+1: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄
+2: ⚀⚁⚂⚃
+3: ⚀⚁⚂
+4: ⚀⚁
+5: ⚀

whereas 1d-5:
–4: ⚀
–3: ⚀
–2: ⚀
–1: ⚀
+0: ⚀
+1: ⚀

Further, since Atm is based on Siz, with a minimum of 0, if size is 1, the range of results is 0-6:
Atm
0: ⚀⚀⚁⚀⚁⚂⚀⚁⚂⚃⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄
1: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄⚅
2: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄
3: ⚀⚁⚂⚃
4: ⚀⚁⚂
5: ⚀⚁
6: ⚀

but for Size 9:
9–5=4: ⚀
9–4=5: ⚀⚁
9–3=6: ⚀⚁⚂
9–2=7: ⚀⚁⚂⚃
9–1=8: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄
9+0=9: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄⚅
9+1=A: ⚀⚁⚂⚃⚄
9+2=B: ⚀⚁⚂⚃
9+3=C: ⚀⚁⚂
9+4=D: ⚀⚁
9+5=E: ⚀

 

[sabredog]

The nature of "impersonal bureaucracy" is troublesome. Perhaps it is composed of the visitors to their world who built the starport and form the bureaucratic govt, imposing their will on the natives.

"Captive Government" is a better fit for what you describe, since that sounds like a colonial world taken over (one way or another) by a higher TL outside force.

An impersonal bureacracy is more like the ultimate form of a multi-tiered government built upon layers and layers of agencies all interlocked with each other and more concerned with making sure administrative rules and procedures are followed, and protocols and territory not infringed on, than it is with actually interacting personally with the public.

It might not always be something along the lines of being against the public good per se, but those working within it might certainly be more interested in maintaining their position and power within their small area of influence than risk stepping out of bounds to help anyone. It could range from anywhere from the typical "Big Government" image to something really out there - a good example is the adventure "Exit Visa", whoch is found in the Traveller Book and in The Traveller Adventure.

It takes place of a world with an impersonal bureaucracy and involves all the myriad headaches a group of players will experience on a world with such a system gone wild that it is hilarious to run.
"No, sir i don't handle that please see Clerk x at window 5."
"Who told you I handle that? No, no, no, you have to to Window 7"
...."but we just cam from..."
"Sorry, back to 7...Next!"
"What?! Go back to 5, I'm on lunch."

.....and so on.

 

[Ptah]

....
My very first generated world has some idiosyncracies that may take some hard-core creativity to reconcile. I hope that my first attempt was well-done.

I love these kind of worlds

Starport E
Naval Base ---
Scout Base ---
GG yes

Size (5), 5000 miles in diameter
Atmo (5), thin
Hydro (6), 60% water
Pop (6), 1-9 millions
Govt (9), Impersonal bureaucracy (an example of this would be helpful)
Law (9), no weapons beyond home
Tech (6)

Ag, Non-Ind

I'm not sure how such a low-tech world would have a starport, unless it was from Others beyond their home world.

Yes that is a problem, although E is about as low as you can get. Maybe this Ag product is a cash product, luxury product, has medicinla uses, and of course only grows in an economical fashion on this world. The starport is to export it and import the "TL 6 beads and trinkets" (at least trinkets to a TL 12 society.

Such severe law for an agricultural, non-industrial society seems odd.

Peaceful farmers or government that doesn't want armed citizens. Thinking of medieval Europe, it was certainly Ag, Non-Ind and most peasants couldn't legally carry arms except in times of war. Also given the thin atmosphere maybe buildings are pressurized, making a gun a potential WMD in a hospital.

The nature of "impersonal bureaucracy" is troublesome. Perhaps it is composed of the visitors to their world who built the starport and form the bureaucratic govt, imposing their will on the natives.

It could be the logistics of this are such a headache, dealing with far flung advance societies, restrictions on technology trading and maintaining one price (govt. monopoly) for the AG that a complex bureaucracy runs the show.

For an example, I think of the DMV or RMV when I think "impersonal bureaucracy."

Let me combine this all in one far-fetched idea. Think of what a DMV would be like if run by stern Amish folk, they don't like it, they make it work because of their work ethic, but otherwise it's non-nonsense all the time. Apply this to a world, add in the general belief their is no need for one to carry a weapon outside the home, only a criminal or off-worlder (likely the same thing) would do so.

 

[rancke]

Maybe this Ag product is a cash product, luxury product, has medicinal uses, and of course only grows in an economical fashion on this world. The starport is to export it and import the "TL 6 beads and trinkets" (at least trinkets to a TL 12 society).

'Agricultural' is a trade classification, but it just tells us what sort of products the world would generate IF it did export anything. It doesn't mean it necessarily does export; certainly not necessarily on any grand scale.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks this way, but my first reaction was...

This planet has a native, non-human population of violence-abhorring, order-loving farmers/ranchers.

Since their first contact with Imperial Scouts, they have placed their own restrictions on out-world visitors... limiting those strange, violent, chaotic, techno-freaks to using one bare patch of unusable ground far from water for their infrequent visits.


My Traveller universe is one with lots on native sophont populations... most of which either do not want (in general) to leave their home system, or who cannot do so, for a number of varied reasons.

 

[far-trader]

'Agricultural' is a trade classification, but it just tells us what sort of products the world would generate IF it did export anything. It doesn't mean it necessarily does export; certainly not necessarily on any grand scale.


Hans

fwiw I've generally taken the Trade Classification as an indicator of the type of trade the world engages in, with the volumes coming from (taking cue from at least) the trade tables on pg. 11 of LBB 2.

So a world with no trade classifications at all is not interested in trade, though there will generally be a random assortment of goods to ship or items to speculate on. While worlds with actual trade classifications point to the types of goods likely to make up said goods. Taking cues from the Speculative Trade table (pg 47 LBB 2) modifiers for the freight.

As an example the Ag Ni world you rolled with Pop 6 will have a fair bit of trade available for any Free Traders who come through (unlikely to have a subsidized service given the rest) and the bulk of it will be:

Exports (neg purchase DMs): Textiles, Liquor, Wood, Radioactives, Petrochemicals, Grain, Meat, Spice, Fruit, and Gems.

Imports (pos resale DMs): Aluminum, Special Alloys, Aircraft, Air/rafts, Computers, ATVs, AFVs*, Farm Machinery, Electronic Parts, Mechanical Parts, Cybernetic Parts, Computer Parts, Machine Tools, and Vacc Suits.

* I've never really gotten the pos DM Ag for AFVs

So there's a lot of mining and farming going on and exports of raw materials and food and some finished crafts.

In return they aren't luddites and while they don't produce much or any high tech stuff locally they do use it extensively and make their own repairs.

Something like that.

P.S. And fwiw E isn't really a Starport and TL6 isn't really that low (they could even have a "primitive" orbital presence, sputnik or better)

 

[Icosahedron]

Impersonal bureaucracy (an example of this would be helpful)

Bwapville.

 

[coliver988]

<snip>
* I've never really gotten the pos DM Ag for AFVs

they are for really BIG animals that decimate the crops of course!

 

[sabredog]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks this way, but my first reaction was...

This planet has a native, non-human population of violence-abhorring, order-loving farmers/ranchers.

Since their first contact with Imperial Scouts, they have placed their own restrictions on out-world visitors... limiting those strange, violent, chaotic, techno-freaks to using one bare patch of unusable ground far from water for their infrequent visits.


My Traveller universe is one with lots on native sophont populations... most of which either do not want (in general) to leave their home system, or who cannot do so, for a number of varied reasons.

You know, that's not a bad description of what that might be when you look at the totality of the numbers and what they might mean.

I doubt they could force the Scouts into just one spot if the Imperium wanted to expand, but it might be a little exclusion from both sides. Like the locals having something unique about their culture that provides xenologists with a choice place to study them, and the Scouts trying to preserve that by staying out of local affairs except within the boundaries of a common meeting ground - both figuratively and literally.

If you've ever read any Jack Vance, the story "Dogtown Travel Agency" is an excellent example of this sort of situation and the problems it can cause visitors.

 

[rancke]

If you've ever read any Jack Vance, the story "Dogtown Travel Agency" is an excellent example of this sort of situation and the problems it can cause visitors.

Are you sure you got the name right? I don't recognize the title, and googling failed to turn up any references to it.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

* I've never really gotten the pos DM Ag for AFVs

Probably relates to the historic (and fictional) smuggling of military equipment as "farm machinery".

 

[sabredog]

Yeah, it's in the anthology of Hetzel detective stories. I have the book right here...."Galactic Effectuator", and the story is "The Dogtown Tourist Agency". The story was once published by itself since it's more a novella than a short.

It takes place on a world where the locals are so hostile that only on a special meeting ground agreed upon by treaty will they meet with the other species (the more advanced offworld ones) who "oversee" local affairs. Violators who try to sell the locals forbidden technology are imprisoned in a cluster of glass cubes in the middle of this meeting area as an example to all for the rest of their lives.

 

[sabredog]

Here's a link where you can get copies of the book...it's out of print, but mainly the cover shows a perfect image of the local sophonts the "Maz". Nasty beasties who wage war for reproduction (in the bodies of the dead) among other reasons.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/v/jack-vance/galactic-effectuator.htm

 

[BlackBat242]

Are you sure you got the name right? I don't recognize the title, and googling failed to turn up any references to it.


Hans

The Dogtown Tourist Agency
first published in anthology "Epoch", Elwood/Silverberg, 1975

Appeared in book The Galactic Effectuator
hardback - Underwood-Miller; ISBN: 0-934438-30-7; 1980
paperback - Ace; ISBN: 0-441-27232-0; 1981