LBB6 system generation questions

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Just a note an radiation in space:
On the Apollo XIV mission the cumulative dose in those 206 h was around 15 mSv, mainly caused by crossing the Van-Allen belt.
Apollo XI had another navigation plot and just collected 6 mSv in 195 hours mission duration.
Bad health effects are considered to start above 1000 mSv.
I would guess, that with more advanced shielding, good navigation and without parking the ship in a radiation belt those things could be handled.
Anyway radiation surely is one of the many threads in space and could/should act as "reality based" spice of fictional adventuring

Regards,

TE

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yes, Mal, there should be more "empty" systems. My spreadsheet is probably more likely to generate them because I simply can't replicate some of the judgements that might otherwise be made with formulas. (Do you know how hard it was to forulate the picking of a mainworld? ) I come up with one of those empty systems for about every 50 systems I generate. I also get an unpopulated system about once per subsector.

atpollard, meet Mal, our resident "system realism" curmudgeon. He's the man to go to for getting it realistic. He knows his stuff. Matter of fact, he has a whole generation system based on that realism - good stuff, that.

I decided to try for LBB6 instead with this one, so.... I actually want to keep a couple of these systems around, as well as the one that has a single GG, no moons, and no rockballs of any kind.

 

[Plankowner]

I did an IMTU thing where I decided that 50% of the rolled "systems" in Traveller were in fact empty stars shown on the map with an Asterisk (star) and a circle used for a system.

That let me limit the number of red dwarf habitable systems and spread things out a bit. Also, if you go back to the SR or SM, you can "add" the barren stars in there without messing things up too much.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh, I was off, previously: I get one of those empty systems for about every 400 systems I generate.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

OK, I just saw a solitary star system with a GG, with no moons around it. So, how is that "UWP"ed? It's not empty, just nothing that a UWP normally covers.

I also just realized one of the reasons we get the wierd placement of populations is because each planet has its own pop roll. I just got a system where a beautiful world (735) has a pop of 4, while a captured iceball (100) is the mainworld with a pop of 6million. If the entire system got a pop roll, then the mods (for zone, atmo, hydro, etc.) would force the mainworld to bemore likely to be a habitable spot, instead of some iceball in the frozen zone or a small hunk of iron so close to the star you can touch it.

 

[Malenfant]

One huge problem with book 6 is that population is an unmodified roll. It really needs to be modified by atmosphere type, world size, hydrographics, maybe even star type... otherwise the exact problem you've noticed crops up a lot.

Personally I'd say something like the base roll should be 1d-1 (0-5). Then you can add modifiers for earthlike worlds that can bring it up to pop 9 or A if everything works out. Or you subtract for airless rockballs, hostile atmospheres, low hydro, etc that can drop the pop to less than zero (so that counts as 0).

That would cluster most of the population on the worlds that are actually habitable (as it should be), and then at most you'd have only a few thousand people in the belts and rockball worlds (also as it should be).

 

[RandyT0001]

Like this?)

Roll location, starport, size, atmosphere, and hydrographics as normal.

For worlds with hydrographics of 3+ and atmosphere of 6-7 roll D+3(+modifiers)
DM's: starport B+, +1; Size 3- or A, -1; Hydrographics A, -1

For worlds with hydrographics of 3+ and atmosphere of 4-5, 8-9 roll D+1(+modifiers)
DM's: Starport C, +1; starport B+, +2; Size 3- or A, -1; Hydrographics A, -1

For other worlds roll D-1(+modifiers)
DM's: Starport D, +1; Starport C+, +2, Size 0 +1, Scout Base +1

Roll government, law level and tech level as normal.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, Mal, LBB6 does modify for atmo (if its not 0, 5, 6, or 8 then -2, as well as modifying for zone (I and O both are neg mods), and it mods for size if its a moon. (And, of course, atmo rolls are mod'ed for zone, as well.) So, there is some tendency to point at the "nicer" worlds (not that I could actually steer you to that world if I were a realtor - that would be unethical).

However, if I roll a 5 for the near garden world, it gets mod'ed to a 1 (2d-2-2), while the 12 rolled for the iceball only gets mod'ed down to a 7 (2d-2-3, and not -2 because its atmo=0!). So my mainworld is on Pluto, while a few dozen folks live on Earth. If I used the same roll for all the planets, Pluto would still have a million folks, but Earth would be much more populated.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh yeah, can y'all answer the question about the single GG system?

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Oh yeah, can y'all answer the question about the single GG system?

I don't have LBB6 handy, but I think that the situation you described cannot happen. Don't you start by rolling up the starport and main world? What did you roll on the main world UPP to give you a gas giant with no main world?

Of course my old grey matter could be remembering it wrong.

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
One huge problem with book 6 is that population is an unmodified roll. It really needs to be modified by atmosphere type, world size, hydrographics, maybe even star type... otherwise the exact problem you've noticed crops up a lot.

The starport should probably also be modified by population to avoid 15 people running a Type A starport with a naval base.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Well, Mal, LBB6 does modify for atmo (if its not 0, 5, 6, or 8 then -2, as well as modifying for zone (I and O both are neg mods), and it mods for size if its a moon.

Regrettably, that modifier only applies to non-mainworlds.

 

[Malenfant]

Anthony's right, the modifiers don't apply to mainworlds. If you just generate a mainworld on its own, the pop roll is a straight 2d-2 roll.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Sorry to be late to the party...

There were some fixes to LBB6's system design done by the guys who worked on T4. The results are located at the Missouri Archive and the two articles are linked below. Give them a look and see if those suit how you envision YTU better.

Alternative World Generation Rules

Book 6: Scouts Update

 

[Fritz_Brown]

No, I am using the extended system from scratch - you don't roll the mainworld first, you pick it after getting (most) everything together (LBB6 p21 - under "Approaches"). And, if you go straight to the extended system, those rolls apply to everything. You don't determine mainworld until after the pop roll (Pop roll is pp36-37, with mainworld determination the second third of pg37), and all the modifiers are in the paragraphs re the rolls.

And, since you roll for Empty/Captured/GGs/Belts before you start rolling up the local rocks (pg34, with orbital placement on pg35), I end up with a GG, and a low enough roll (4 or less with a LGG) gives me no satellites.

But:
Mal, you're right about the pop roll for mainworld-first method.
atpollard, you're right, as the starport only affects the TL (and bases).
jeff, I'll take a look. Maybe I can build in an option to my spreadsheet.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
[QB] No, I am using the extended system from scratch - you don't roll the mainworld first, you pick it after getting (most) everything together (LBB6 p21 - under "Approaches"). And, if you go straight to the extended system, those rolls apply to everything. You don't determine mainworld until after the pop roll (Pop roll is pp36-37, with mainworld determination the second third of pg37), and all the modifiers are in the paragraphs re the rolls.

Oh, I guess if you're doing it that way then yes that's true. But the way it's set up is that there aren't any bonuses to pop, only penalties - which lets you have icy airless rockballs in the outer zone that can have up to pop 5, but perfectly habitable planets in the life zone can have any pop from 0 to A. IMO there should be positive modifiers for habitable planets (to a max of A) which allow them to almost always have a pop more than 5 - lets face it, if you've got an earthlike world in a system, you're going to put most of your people on that.

And, since you roll for Empty/Captured/GGs/Belts before you start rolling up the local rocks (pg34, with orbital placement on pg35), I end up with a GG, and a low enough roll (4 or less with a LGG) gives me no satellites.

Just noticed something here:

from page 34, gas giants section:

The number [of gas giants] present may not exceed the number of available and non-empty orbits in the habitable and outer zones in the system. However if the table calls for a gas giant and there is no orbit available for it, create an orbit in the outer zone for it.

from page 35, gas giants again:

Gas giants must be placed in the available orbits in the habitable zone and in the outer system. While gas giants can be in inner orbits, they should not be placed starward of the habitable zone unless there are no other orbits available.

Is it me or are those contradictory? p34 say that if you have more GGs than habitable and outer zone orbits, then add an extra orbit to the outer zone to put it in. p35 says that if no orbits are available in the outer and habitable zones, then you should place the extra ones in the inner zone. But if you go by p34, then you're putting your extra GG in the outer zone anyway! Huh?!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

You're right, Mal - no bonuses. You're also right about that contradiction.

 

[Malenfant]

Woo! Thirty years on and we're still discovering new mistakes in CT books!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Actually, Mal, there is a solution to the GG placement dilemna:
The total number of GGs cannot exceed habitable plus outer zone orbits. So, if you have 1 I, 1 H, and 2 O orbits, you can't have more than 3 GGs. When you roll quantities, you get 2 empties and 2 GGs. But, you roll your empty orbits first and one turns up in orbit 1, and one in orbit 3, leaving orbits 0 (I) and 2 (O). You can still place both GGs, but one would have to be in an inner orbit.

I think. I don't have my book handy...
(And, my home computer is kaput, so I haven't been on in a few weeks.

)

 

[Malenfant]

Well what I quoted was what the book actually said. And it sounds to me like one thing is saying that if there are no orbits available then you have to place any more GGs in the outer zone, but the other says that if there's no more orbits available then you have to place more GGs in the inner zone.

I think your example works as it is, but not if you actually roll up 3 GGs. In that case, you have to put one in orbit 2, one in orbit 0, and then what? I guess in that case since there are no more orbits in the inner zone available, you have to place it in an extra orbit in the outer zone?

Either way, at best it's rather confusing, if not totally contradictory.