Leading Edge of Exploration (or How Dumb Are Your Vilani?)

[stealth]

I kind of have an answer:

I would just like to point out that all broadcast EM noise from the Earth is subsumed by cosmic background radiation after only 3 light years distance.

Only powerfull directional signals (project SIGNPOST, maybe GRUDGE) could be detected, and then you would have to be in the beam.

Just sayin'.

 

[kafka47]

The shugilli are needed only for their ethnic cuisines. Vilani are not bilogically adapted for the foods of vland, but culturally and technologically adapted. Once they realize they can eat the local foodstuffs, they will.

Now, some human minors ARE adapted.

ok, my error. However, as a caste based society would we not see the Shuggilli needed for other things. And, is it again my faulty memory but did not the castes also form the basis for the Vilani megacorporations of the First Imperium? So, even in the late First Imperium the production and distribution of Foodstuffs would still be along feudal lines? So maybe not direct processing but just as farmers may slay a chicken...when we go for chicken nuggets, we are dealing with a corporation...so would not the Shuggii have not their fingers there too?

I don't think so. It may not have been stated explicitly anywhere, but Easter has a type E atmosphere, so it would look like an egg with bands across.


Hans

Now that bugs...me, I do remember references to the Easter Island statues being transported or appearing elsewhere in Chartered Space...

 

[jatay3]

How much would Vilani be willing to spend on exploring an area where they were convinced there was nothing? These are Vilani, and Vilani never change their minds. Once someone said there was nothing the succeeding generations would continue to assume so even if someone discovered evidence that they were wrong.

Intelligence reports regularly work that way. Among hundreds of reports someone makes a wild guess. If by chance it turns out to be true it becomes a conspiracy theory, but only because nobody knew how many reports were out there. Would a Vilani official who has to convince his superior, who has to convince his superior and so on ad infinitum, endorse the discovery of an advanced civilization on Terra? Everybody knew there was nothing there Remember, Terra was only capable of attracting Vilani attention for a couple hundred years. Before that they were just another barbarian tribe.

And how much effort would Vilani put into developing their frontier? The action in Vilani politics was in intrigue between factions in the more developed areas. All the attention of the Vilani would be there. Every governor's policy would be geared toward what would advance the interests of his particular faction. How much resources would he waste on exploring the area? At best he could be accused of throwing money around insanely. At worse people would say, "Danger, Danger, governor building up power base." What if he was afraid of being accused of violating whatever accords the Vilani have for ensuring the balance of power? A Vilani would not consider curiousity worth getting assassinated over.

 

[sayatmenace]

None of your meme are belong to them

'The Vilani' are a mess. Their civilization is not much more than a bland blob of bugaboo onto which people project whatever dysfunctional or distasteful traits they need to at the moment. They're the Other of rightist science fiction.

For my money, the Vilani are aliens. Humans, but not Homo sapiens; not the same species. They had the technical capability of reaching Earth, but didn't make the effort? OH NOES. Why oh why would they not acknowledge the glory of the most important planet and most important species in Known Space??? Round up the women and children, the insult must be expunged.

 

[abomination]

Because they were made of meat?

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2wXCXy/www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html

 

[jatay3]

'The Vilani' are a mess. Their civilization is not much more than a bland blob of bugaboo onto which people project whatever dysfunctional or distasteful traits they need to at the moment. They're the Other of rightist science fiction.

For my money, the Vilani are aliens. Humans, but not Homo sapiens; not the same species. They had the technical capability of reaching Earth, but didn't make the effort? OH NOES. Why oh why would they not acknowledge the glory of the most important planet and most important species in Known Space??? Round up the women and children, the insult must be expunged.

No they aren't. They have a civilization that is attractive in many ways. Their hideboundness has a reasonable in-verse justification. First, they decided that at a certain point the cost of further development attempts was greater then the benefit. When one has reached the point when one has more power then Zeus simply by being born to the right family on Vland, one can say that one has enough power. It is not clear that the Vilani valued knowledge for itself and if they did they certainly paid attention to the dangers of looking for it. Effectively they decided that if there was anything more to know Man Was Not Meant To Know it. It is a decision similar to the Tokugawas destroying all muskets on Japan, made for similar reasons, with similar results.

Second, for thousands of years the only threat to the Vilani was civil war. There was no possible way they could have accounted for Earth any more then Aztecs could have accounted for Cortez. Their Imperium was deliberately designed to be indecisive, so that it could run on autopilot forever. As that decision protected the Ziru Sirka for two thousand years, one could reasonably say it worked.

The closest counterpart to the Imperium on Earth is Persia or China. These states were often tyrannical but also brought peace and prosperity over large parts of the Earth and raised it to about as high a sophistication as it attained in the pre-modern era. But the Vilani were able to do it even better. Parts of the Ziru Sirku seem to have fallen into warlordism from time to time, but the whole system never came crashing down.

As for why the Vilani didn't explore, that is a mindset shaped by centuries in which explorers could become fabulously rich. For Chinese, on the other hand there was nothing beyond their borders and thus they had less motivation even though their technical capability is undeniable. This would be even more the case for the Vilani.
Furthermore it might be recalled that it took Europeans thousands of years to discover America. The Scandinavians never really made anything of Greenland or Vinland and no one knows why. They just didn't.
The Vilani are not the "other of rightist science fiction". For one thing Traveller is not rightist science fiction or leftist and furthermore I am a rightist and find some Vilani traits, like their love of tradition, attractive. Rather, the ISW is a Classic Tragedy where two great civilizations are brought down by the fatal flaw of pride as shown in different ways.

 

[BlackBat242]

It is well established in the historical & archaeological fields that China did do some exploring, and even set up trade with the closest of the nations & cultures they found... but the predominant ruling attitude meant that they wouldn't try to conquer those cultures, as they were "barbarians, lesser peoples not worthy of inclusion in the Middle Kingdom".

Similarly, once they had established that the parts of the world they had explored held no other advanced society, they decided that the whole world as like that, and that they were better served by getting the "inner barbarians" to deal with the "outer barbarians"... whoever and wherever they might be.

Thus China didn't know much about the nations of Europe until they came barging into China's front parlor, demanding to be treated as at least China's equals (if not its superiors).

 

[jatay3]

Under the circumstances the Chinese can't be blamed. And neither can the Vilani.

In fact the whole ISW was arranged with an exquisite inevitability . The clash of cultural ideals and the imperatives of the strategic situation, pretty much made war inevitable once they met each other. No doubt Solis and Vilis blame each other 'til the end of time, but in fact the chief thing they are to blame for is being human.

 

[Whipsnade]

It is well established in the historical & archaeological fields that China did do some exploring, and even set up trade with the closest of the nations & cultures they found...

BlackBat242,

If by "exploring" and "trading" you mean huge government missions sailing along trade routes already known to Chinese and other merchants to extort "gifts" from local rulers than, yes, China was "exploring" and "trading".

China was not, however, exploring and trading in a European sense or in the sense that we automatically assume when we use the terms "exploring" and "trading".


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

In fact the whole ISW was arranged with an exquisite inevitability.

Jatay3,

Precisely.

It cannot be stressed enough that the wargame Imperium and the situation it represents predates Traveller. In the first version of Imperium, the term "Vilani" is no where to be found and the empire Terra is fighting consists of about 70 seventy systems "centered on Capella". The movement lines between systems on the map don't even represent jump drive, instead they're said to be akin to the Alderson Drive from "The Mote in God's Eye".

Many of the ideas in Imperium are neat and, because it already existed, importing it into the official Traveller setting allowed GDW to create some "instant history" with minimal effort. The game wasn't fully "kit bashed" however and far too much has been "deduced" from it, mostly to the setting's detriment.

Back to the Vilani...

I'd like to point out that everyone is talking about the wrong Vilani or, more accurately, the Vilani from the wrong era. Yes, the Vilani of the Interstellar Wars era are staid, placid, unimaginative, corrupt, and everything else mentioned in this thread. However, the Vilani who created the Ziru Sirka were anything but that.

The Vilani of the pre-Consolidation Wars era explored a region larger than the Third Imperium with only jump1 drives. Take a moment and think about that for a minute.

Think about this too; the Vilani of the two thousand year long Consolidation Wars era hammered every known sophont species across an area larger than the Third Imperium into a single political entity with only jump2 drives.

The Romans of Diocletian's era were not the Romans of Sulla's time, the Americans living during the Obama Administration are not the Americans of the Washington Administration, and the Vilani of the ISW period are not the incredible explorers and single minded ass-kickers of the pre-Ziru Sirka period.

Times change, cultures change, and people change with them.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[PFVA63]

Hi

So then, to misquote Douglas Adams, we're talking about the early 1st Imperium where;

"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. And all dared to brave unknown terrors, to do mighty deeds, to boldly split infinitives that no man had split before—and thus was the Empire forged."

http://www.hjkeen.net/halqn/d_adams.htm
http://www.loneknight.org/quotes.asp?page=DouglasAdams
http://www.alliekat.net/adams.phtml

Regards

PF

 

[jatay3]

Jatay3,

Precisely.

It cannot be stressed enough that the wargame Imperium and the situation it represents predates Traveller. In the first version of Imperium, the term "Vilani" is no where to be found and the empire Terra is fighting consists of about 70 seventy systems "centered on Capella". The movement lines between systems on the map don't even represent jump drive, instead they're said to be akin to the Alderson Drive from "The Mote in God's Eye".

Many of the ideas in Imperium are neat and, because it already existed, importing it into the official Traveller setting allowed GDW to create some "instant history" with minimal effort. The game wasn't fully "kit bashed" however and far too much has been "deduced" from it, mostly to the setting's detriment.

Back to the Vilani...

I'd like to point out that everyone is talking about the wrong Vilani or, more accurately, the Vilani from the wrong era. Yes, the Vilani of the Interstellar Wars era are staid, placid, unimaginative, corrupt, and everything else mentioned in this thread. However, the Vilani who created the Ziru Sirka were anything but that.

The Vilani of the pre-Consolidation Wars era explored a region larger than the Third Imperium with only jump1 drives. Take a moment and think about that for a minute.

Think about this too; the Vilani of the two thousand year long Consolidation Wars era hammered every known sophont species across an area larger than the Third Imperium into a single political entity with only jump2 drives.

The Romans of Diocletian's era were not the Romans of Sulla's time, the Americans living during the Obama Administration are not the Americans of the Washington Administration, and the Vilani of the ISW period are not the incredible explorers and single minded ass-kickers of the pre-Ziru Sirka period.

Times change, cultures change, and people change with them.


Have fun,
Bill

True, though I would like to point out that "staid, placid, unimaginitive" can just as easily be replaced with, "venerable, fatalistic, stoical" . Corrupt, unfortunately remains corrupt which is one reason so many Vilani defected so easily. Not to mention ruthless and ponderous. In fact ponderous may be the best criticism as it sums the whole thing up most easily.

We are given the Terran perspective which was understandable as most players will be Terrans. However they were semi-accidently spreading disease and disorder. And it is hard to believe that at least some of them were not smuggling narcotics and other distasteful things quite deliberately. It would have been illegal in Terra as well as the Zira Sirka but still.

The Vilani were not a cartoon empire. They are better pictured as something like the Centauri in Bab 5(who usually appear as bad guys but not always and not one dimensionally) . One thing that does seem interesting about them though is that the Zira Sirka per se was not able to keep the loyalty of the lower classes of Vilani. Maybe they just took it as given and thus didn't try hard enough. But the defection seems to indicate that the Terrans were able to rule better, at least for a while.

While portraying Vilani as Obstructive Bureaucrats, and effete Upper Class Twits fits canon pretty well, one can as easily portray an old-fashioned, and gentlemanly Vilani rather like the Romulan captain in Balence of Terror.

 

[jatay3]

Probably most lower class Vilani gave their loyalty locally rather then to the Ziru Sirka. I once imagined that the Confederation might have decided Nusku would be a test case and chose their best pacification expert as military governor from the get-go. Once convinced that they would be treated fairly, they were willing to serve the Terran Confederation more loyally then the Ziru Sirka. In fact the Ziru Sirka probably would not like to even try to obtain it's subjects loyalty as that tacitly implied that their subjects had a say in the matter. Which placed them in rather a cleft stick propaganda-wise.

 

[Ronnke]

One of the reasons the Terran Confederation was able to easily sway Vilani loyalty in the Rim was that most of the worlds were settled by the Kamashurgur Vilani, who actively resisted traditional Vilani conservatism. Combined with the Sharurshid's willingness to sometimes set aside politics in the name of profit, ment the Terrans eventually got favour.

By the time the Solomani Rim had fallen, the Terran Confederation had surpassed the Vilani technologically, developed jump 3 and meson weapons. Out gunned and out maneuvered the more traditional Vilani toward the core could do little to stop the advance and eventual fall of the Imperium.

 

[Ronnke]

the Vilani of the ISW period are not the incredible explorers and single minded ass-kickers of the pre-Ziru Sirka period.

Times change, cultures change, and people change with them.

Spot on. In the grand scheme of things the Terrans did the equivalent of winning the lottery. If it were not for the circumstances that seemed to put Terra in a fortunate position, things could have been very different.

 

[jatay3]

One of the reasons the Terran Confederation was able to easily sway Vilani loyalty in the Rim was that most of the worlds were settled by the Kamashurgur Vilani, who actively resisted traditional Vilani conservatism. Combined with the Sharurshid's willingness to sometimes set aside politics in the name of profit, ment the Terrans eventually got favour.

By the time the Solomani Rim had fallen, the Terran Confederation had surpassed the Vilani technologically, developed jump 3 and meson weapons. Out gunned and out maneuvered the more traditional Vilani toward the core could do little to stop the advance and eventual fall of the Imperium.

I noticed that too, though the other Vilani were willing to defect as well.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>Corrupt, unfortunately remains corrupt which is one reason so many Vilani defected so easily

I dont relly think its corruption or treason at the citizen level. It reminds me of the hundred years war ....

farmer walks past the church and seees the priest changing the cross again ... "guess that means we are catholic again this week, father heinrich"

the locals probably didnt notice much more of a change in their lives initially and then things would have been incremental. Think back to junior high and how different the world was yet there's no culture shock because (in my case) the changes have been absorbed over 25 years. For me culture shock is the first couple of days on the farm .... where we get 2 hours TV reception around dusk and its a half hour drive to get to a cell reception area

 

[jatay3]

>Corrupt, unfortunately remains corrupt which is one reason so many Vilani defected so easily

I dont relly think its corruption or treason at the citizen level. It reminds me of the hundred years war ....

farmer walks past the church and seees the priest changing the cross again ... "guess that means we are catholic again this week, father heinrich"

the locals probably didnt notice much more of a change in their lives initially and then things would have been incremental. Think back to junior high and how different the world was yet there's no culture shock because (in my case) the changes have been absorbed over 25 years. For me culture shock is the first couple of days on the farm .... where we get 2 hours TV reception around dusk and its a half hour drive to get to a cell reception area

I didn't mean the locals were corrupt, except with the instinctive self-defensive corruption that comes from living in a system that tolerates corruption*. I meant, the locals defected to the Terrans because they were tired of high-level corruption and warlordism, and because their loyalties had been purely local for so long that it wasn't even treason. The Terrans could provide a reasonably decent government and instinctively knew that wooing their own population was part of politics. The Ziru Sirka was far away. The Ziru Sirku could hold itself together, and would have recovered from the local instability if not for the competition of a hostile state; as I hinted it seems to have been well constructed for the purpose. But in the meantime the Terrans managed to convince that they could provide better government, and until they were overwhelmed by the size of the task, they really could.

The ISW were set up, not so much as a fight between Good and Evil, but a fight between an ideal of Order, and an ideal of Freedom, both of which are laudable aspirations as far as they go. As an interesting twist, the Ziru Sirka failed to satisfy that it was bringing order. And as it happens the Terran Confederation couldn't quite bring freedom either.


*For instance, when I give to foreign charity, I sometimes simply assume that a small percentage will go to paying bribes for the chosen service to be left alone-and write it off as "overhead".

 

[jatay3]

You know, I once did a story in which a Terran naval officer meets a woman from a family that had once worked for the Ziru Sirka and is now reduced by the conquest of her world. She refuses to date him as a matter of honor. Latter she reads the casualty lists and discovers the officer's name on it and starts to cry.

A predictable plot, and it was inevitable that someone would try it.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

I'd like to point out that everyone is talking about the wrong Vilani or, more accurately, the Vilani from the wrong era.

Everyone?! You wound me, Bill. Here and I was afraid that people thought that those Vilani were all I ever talked about around here.

The Vilani of the pre-Consolidation Wars era explored a region larger than the Third Imperium with only jump1 drives. Take a moment and think about that for a minute.

Not quite. A very large chunk, if not all, of what eventually became the rimward third of the Ziru Sirka was staked out after the Consolidation Wars began -- and after the Vilani had switched over to J2 technology. There's no evidence the Vilani had any direct contact with the Vegans, for example, until fairly late into the period; in fact, canon strongly leans the other way.

It's still a major achievement, though, even with J2 at their disposal. It shouldn't be forgotten how much more challenging the astrography gets for low-jump ships once one gets rimward of Massila Sector.

Think about this too; the Vilani of the two thousand year long Consolidation Wars era hammered every known sophont species across an area larger than the Third Imperium into a single political entity with only jump2 drives.

That they did do. Boy, howdy, did they do that thing.

One of the reasons the Terran Confederation was able to easily sway Vilani loyalty in the Rim was that most of the worlds were settled by the Kamashurgur Vilani, who actively resisted traditional Vilani conservatism. Combined with the Sharurshid's willingness to sometimes set aside politics in the name of profit, meant the Terrans eventually got favour.

Yeah, arguably Sharurshid was the 'softest' of the Shangarim when it came to dealing with alien cultures. If it had been Makhidkarun that found them first, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd have just nuked a few major cities on sight, just to show the locals who's boss. Outside of the highly-compliant Yileans, canon is eerily silent when it comes to describing the minor races that occupy Makhidkarun's old territory. True, it's probably just an oversight -- but it's a suspiciously telling one, IMTU.

Fortunately for Terran longevity, Makhidkarun was a) clear on the other side of the Empire, and b) up to it's eyeballs in a whole mess of trouble of its own in the end (see below).

By the time the Solomani Rim had fallen, the Terran Confederation had surpassed the Vilani technologically, developed jump 3 and meson weapons. Out gunned and out maneuvered the more traditional Vilani toward the core could do little to stop the advance and eventual fall of the Imperium.

Defeat had already been seeping in from the core for a while before the Terrans made contact. The Vargr were capable of jump-3 for centuries prior to the ISW period; my best guess is that entire sectors of the core-spinward edge of the Ziru Sirka was swarming with them by the time the Terrans even knew there was such a thing as a 'jump drive'.