Load Bearing Equipment

[Spartan159]

Belt and suspenders, backpacks, etc... how do they help characters carry more weight in Traveller? How does tech level affect them? Weight and durability?

Looking for input on these basic yet overlooked pieces of equipment, the only ones I've seen are the basic TL 3 Backpack that "Increases a characters carrying capacity" with a weight of 3kg and 40 liters of volume, and the DGP G- pack starting at Tl 12 which as a grav assisted pack lets you carry 80kg at a cost in batteries and inertia penalties.

 

[Quint]

Belt and suspenders, backpacks, etc... how do they help characters carry more weight in Traveller? How does tech level affect them? Weight and durability?

Looking for input on these basic yet overlooked pieces of equipment, the only ones I've seen are the basic TL 3 Backpack that "Increases a characters carrying capacity" with a weight of 3kg and 40 liters of volume, and the DGP G- pack starting at Tl 12 which as a grav assisted pack lets you carry 80kg at a cost in batteries and inertia penalties.

I tend to treat it as a method for carry more in an accessible manner, and with lessened penalties for both Dex and End, than increasing the total amount that the character can carry. Higher tech means that the gear weighs less and increases accessibility.

There is also a increase in modularity and in it's ability to be worn with armor of various types.

D.

 

[samuelvss]

I treat web gear (harnesses, etc) as assumed into any military gear from TL6 up, at which point they became ubiquitous, and their weight essentially disappears into the weight of what they bear.

My approach is that a character in military gear carrying 10 magazines and 1 liters of water is "charged" for the weight of those items, but not for that of the harness carrying them. The character gets no "bonus," but rather if a character in a track suit was carrying this same 12-piece load without the web gear, he or she would have a serious problem.

If a character wanted to game it, I would give them a one third discount on weight only if they were wearing the specific gear with they had operated before, and had time to set it up, take it for a short "shake down" jog or roadmarch, and then make adjustments. ex: Simon Tam gets himself a liberated Purplebelly combat harness, and he carries the stuff without being further encumbered by the weight of the harness. Zoe puts on her old "killing rig" she gets to carry 6 kg of its normal contents (lever-action carbine-pistol, ammo, comm, dagger, and half-dozen scalps) for 4kg, IMTU. Simon wants to spend a couple of hours getting his new rig squared-away, he may get the same adavantage, but not right out of the box.

 

[Quint]

As a further note, there is also a sweet spot - the ability of characters (and soldiers) to pack on "one more piece of gear" can pretty quickly overwhelm any gains made...

There are some excellent analysis of modern combat loads that might be helpful out there. I also remember seeing an fantastic photographic series of a "standard British infantry kit" from medieval to modern eras. Sorry for the lack of a link.

D.

 

[samuelvss]

Well, since SLAM did A Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation, the Army has officially paid attention, and then in practice woefully ignored his advice. The basic web gear, however, is way below this. The essential items for the US rig I carried were less than 6 kg (6 loaded 30 rd mags plus about 2 l water, bayonet), but today "web gear" has become the flak vest, with enough SAPI plates to drown an Olympic swimmer....

However, Traveller encumbrance vs. what soldiers really carry are way out of whack....so far so that I don't even bother.

 

[Timerover51]

Well, since SLAM did A Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation, the Army has officially paid attention, and then in practice woefully ignored his advice. The basic web gear, however, is way below this. The essential items for the US rig I carried were less than 6 kg (6 loaded 30 rd mags plus about 2 l water, bayonet), but today "web gear" has become the flak vest, with enough SAPI plates to drown an Olympic swimmer....

However, Traveller encumbrance vs. what soldiers really carry are way out of whack....so far so that I don't even bother.

Hmm, a West Pointer. That explains the SLAM.

 

[aramis]

I've always treated the actual harness as part of the personal clothing allowance, given that (at least for field troops) it's pretty much worn any time one's awake, and often when not.

Backpacks, etc, I've always counted at full mass, but allow anything inside to count half mass, as it's distributed. This does put the roughly 40kg basic load within reach of the Str 7 average recruit... here's how

Web gear: 5kg - PCA
Weapon 4kg
Pack 2kg
in/on pack rest of gear: roughly 30 kg, counts 15. This gives 21kg of load that counts... and thus, military load for a troop.

 

[Spartan159]

Thanks for the response all. I came across this website by chance today, http://sectionhiker.com/lighten-up-your-backpack-the-big-three/ was very informative. Given the information there I'm going to go with TL 8 Backpacks weighing 1.5 kg, TL 8 2 man tents weighing .75kg and TL 8 sleeping bags at .5kg

Stumped for the moment on volumes though.

Now I need to find info on good belts/suspenders and 2015 Dollar to Cr rates, Then take a stab at higher TL gear. I'm also wondering if military versions of gear would have IR/Vis Chameleon at the appropriate TLs for a cost of course.

 

[Timerover51]

Thanks for the response all. I came across this website by chance today, http://sectionhiker.com/lighten-up-your-backpack-the-big-three/ was very informative. Given the information there I'm going to go with TL 8 Backpacks weighing 1.5 kg, TL 8 2 man tents weighing .75kg and TL 8 sleeping bags at .5kg

Stumped for the moment on volumes though.

Now I need to find info on good belts/suspenders and 2015 Dollar to Cr rates, Then take a stab at higher TL gear. I'm also wondering if military versions of gear would have IR/Vis Chameleon at the appropriate TLs for a cost of course.

It Traveller Adventure 2, Research Station Gamma, published in 1980. gold, in the form of Droyne Coyns, was valued at 200 Credits per ounce. The average price of gold in terms of dollars was $193.40 per ounce in 1978, $306 per ounce in 1979, and $615 per ounce in 1980. I suspect that Marc was thinking in terms of 1978 Dollars when writing the adventure, so at that time, the Credit and Dollar were about at par. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, $1 in 1978 was worth $3.63 in 2015. So, you have several choices.

1. Take the current price in US Dollars for equipment, then divide by 3.63 to get a price in Credits, but that does assume no inflation for the Imperial Credit over a 37 year period.

2. Assume the same inflation rate for the Imperium as the US and treat the Credit and Dollar at par.

3. Assume a fixed value for the Imperial Credit at 200 Credits per ounce. Currently, gold is trading for around $1200 per ounce, so divide current prices by 6 per your Credit price.

4. Assume that the price of gold per ounce in Imperial Credits has gone up to 400 Credits per ounce, allowing for some inflation. That would give you an exchange rate of about $3.00 to the Credit, which is what I use for pricing. This also reasonably approximates the inflation rate since 1978 for the US.

 

[aramis]

Thanks for the response all. I came across this website by chance today, http://sectionhiker.com/lighten-up-your-backpack-the-big-three/ was very informative. Given the information there I'm going to go with TL 8 Backpacks weighing 1.5 kg, TL 8 2 man tents weighing .75kg and TL 8 sleeping bags at .5kg

Stumped for the moment on volumes though.

Now I need to find info on good belts/suspenders and 2015 Dollar to Cr rates, Then take a stab at higher TL gear. I'm also wondering if military versions of gear would have IR/Vis Chameleon at the appropriate TLs for a cost of course.

For maximum compatibility with Bk1/Bk4 prices, convert to 1976 US dollars. I've found magazines listing matching prices for almost all TL 7 and lower goods, including all the firearms, dating to 1976 or early 1977.

 

[epicenter00]

I tend to treat it as a method for carry more in an accessible manner, and with lessened penalties for both Dex and End, than increasing the total amount that the character can carry. Higher tech means that the gear weighs less and increases accessibility.

There is also a increase in modularity and in it's ability to be worn with armor of various types.

D.

This is probably the best solution. Web gear does not actually allow you to carry more; I remember reading a study that concluded that the amount that the amount of weight of kit an infantryman carries between ancient Rome and the modern day is essentially identical. Weight carried is limited, not by the technology of LBE but by the carrying capacity of the person. (The study went on to theorize that the weight carried was probably the same even before ancient Rome but the author lacked information on what warriors in earlier times actually carried.)

I treat web gear (harnesses, etc) as assumed into any military gear from TL6 up, at which point they became ubiquitous, and their weight essentially disappears into the weight of what they bear.

This is one of those tricky TL questions.

The evolution of web-gear is pretty slow for much of history because ergonomics is done in a non-scientific fashion, via trial-and-error and has to adapt to a soldier's changing kit. While it might not be called LBE, "web" gear in the form of cartridge cases and a harness for carrying things on the body existed before TL6, I think by about TL4 you start seeing recognizable LBE. Even before then, LBE exists - a TL1 warrior's sword belt is, at its basic level, LBE as were the harnesses worn under plate armor to distribute the weight.

However, like things the idea of sanitation which occurs at a set TL in Earth history, there's nothing that prevents someone from going to a TL2 or even TL1 world and explaining the ergonomics of more advanced LBE designs. These could be made using local TL resources; while they might like the plastics, steel, and long-wearing lightweight synthetic materials of modern gear, they would still an improvement in carrying capacity.

 

[samuelvss]

Web gear does not actually allow you to carry more; I remember reading a study that concluded that the amount that the amount of weight of kit an infantryman carries between ancient Rome and the modern day is essentially identical.

(See below)

These could be made using local TL resources; while they might like the plastics, steel, and long-wearing lightweight synthetic materials of modern gear, they would still an improvement in carrying capacity.

Yes, but you are comparing web gear across TL's, I am speaking of having web gear vs. not having it. Humans have, as you well point out, been adapting the tech at hand to carry combat loads ergonomically and accessibly, probably since before recorded history. The rules in Traveller do not address how the weight is carried. So if I have my stuff in a suitcase, or stuck in my suit and overcoat pockets, there is no weight penalty I'm aware of. If old boy puts his canteens in a wooden chest to carry them, I'm gonna charge him for the weight of the chest.

My point is that I don't generally game carrying stuff, just the stuff carried. Web gear is like a driver's license for a US citizen: significant only in its absence. If the player wants to get into the weeds on how much ammo they can carry, etc., then I will talk about it. Other than that, we just keep a tally on weight, just like money. I'll assume that a party with military or para-military backgrounds are going to have their stuff carried in some form of web gear, so I don't address it unless something stupid comes up.

Military ammo, and even magazines, typically come in bandoleers, or with that option, so I don't even worry about the number of their own mags (vs number of pouches) if they are carrying other than the weight.

That being said, If JoJo the Scientist, in his lab coat, wants to pick up a gauss rifle and all 22 of the mags from the 11 thugs he's just offed with his Death Ray 9.1.6, and run through the jungle, running and running, we're gonna have to talk....

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, the SAS during the Confrontation came to the same conclusion, that the optimum combat load is thirty kilos, give or take, so that the infantryman can still react fast enough to an ambush.

I believe pack mule loads vary.

 

[Timerover51]

As I recall, the SAS during the Confrontation came to the same conclusion, that the optimum combat load is thirty kilos, give or take, so that the infantryman can still react fast enough to an ambush.

I believe pack mule loads vary.

Pack mule loads will vary based on the size of the mule and the type of pack saddle used. It will typically be between 200 and 300 pounds, not including the pack saddle unless the saddle is exceptionally heavy. Loads for a donkey/burro/ass generally ran about 100 to 150 pounds, but more towards the 100 pound range. Are you interested in specific cites, as there are some excellent sources of information on pack mules available for download on the Internet?

 

[Timerover51]

This is probably the best solution. Web gear does not actually allow you to carry more; I remember reading a study that concluded that the amount that the amount of weight of kit an infantryman carries between ancient Rome and the modern day is essentially identical. Weight carried is limited, not by the technology of LBE but by the carrying capacity of the person. (The study went on to theorize that the weight carried was probably the same even before ancient Rome but the author lacked information on what warriors in earlier times actually carried.)

Many of the armies prior to the Roman relied on the personal servants of the warriors to carry some of the equipment. Marius was the first Roman to put effort into any assistance in load carrying equipment. You may wish to look at Greece and Rome at War and Warfare in the Classical World.. Romans serving under Marius called themselves "Marius' Mules."

This is one of those tricky TL questions.

The evolution of web-gear is pretty slow for much of history because ergonomics is done in a non-scientific fashion, via trial-and-error and has to adapt to a soldier's changing kit. While it might not be called LBE, "web" gear in the form of cartridge cases and a harness for carrying things on the body existed before TL6, I think by about TL4 you start seeing recognizable LBE. Even before then, LBE exists - a TL1 warrior's sword belt is, at its basic level, LBE as were the harnesses worn under plate armor to distribute the weight.

Anson Mills developed the modern woven cartridge belt in 1881. He was a US Army officer serving in the West at the time. See Frontier Regulars, by Robert Utley, page 77.

However, like things the idea of sanitation which occurs at a set TL in Earth history, there's nothing that prevents someone from going to a TL2 or even TL1 world and explaining the ergonomics of more advanced LBE designs. These could be made using local TL resources; while they might like the plastics, steel, and long-wearing lightweight synthetic materials of modern gear, they would still an improvement in carrying capacity.

The main requirement for any type of load-bearing gear is the need for suitable raw materials and the ability to construct spinning wheels and looms for weaving it. Such items should be present on Tech Level 1 and 2 worlds with sufficiently large populations. You may wish to take a look at Civil War backpacks and other equipment as depicted in Jack Coggins' Arms and Equipment of the Civil War.

 

[Condottiere]

Which was what I was thinking off, the difference between how much you can carry when in combat, and how much the army thinks you can schlep along by yourself, especially when Special Forces have to take along everything they need.

A hoplite could have his own servant along to carry his equipment, while the Romans assigned two servants to each eight man squad.

 

[samuelvss]

The main requirement for any type of load-bearing gear is the need for suitable raw materials and the ability to construct spinning wheels and looms for weaving it. Such items should be present on Tech Level 1 and 2 worlds with sufficiently large populations. You may wish to take a look at Civil War backpacks and other equipment as depicted in Jack Coggins' Arms and Equipment of the Civil War.

Really, leather works fine. It is is just resource-intensive to produce. Quality cartridge boxes are critical prior to metallic cartridges.

 

[Timerover51]

Really, leather works fine. It is is just resource-intensive to produce. Quality cartridge boxes are critical prior to metallic cartridges.

Leather is impermeable and causes excessive sweating when used for backpacks. Good quality cotton duck is about the optimum.

 

[Timerover51]

Military ammo, and even magazines, typically come in bandoleers, or with that option, so I don't even worry about the number of their own mags (vs number of pouches) if they are carrying other than the weight.

Hitting the ground with a bandolier of ammunition magazines across your chest can be a quite painful experience. Then there is the bulk of the magazines, over and above the weight. For that matter, hitting the ground with two ammo pouches each containing 4 M-16 magazines on your web belt is not exactly fun either. Try it sometime and see how it feels.

 

[BlackBat242]

Really, leather works fine. It is is just resource-intensive to produce. Quality cartridge boxes are critical prior to metallic cartridges.

Leather is impermeable and causes excessive sweating when used for backpacks. Good quality cotton duck is about the optimum.

Exactly - and prior to metallic cartridges, keeping moisture away from the paper cartridges and the powder therein (or just loose powder) is critical for the powder to function correctly - thus the preference for leather for cartridge boxes and powder pouches.