Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

[SJE]

So I'm designing a Spinward Marches Imperial scenario in which the Zhodani and returned POW's play a large role. Its called "The Zhodani Candidate" and has flavours of Homeland/The Manchurian Candidate.

So I'm thinking its a game set in 1090, 6 years after the Fourth Frontier War. While Prisoners could have been taken from naval ships, can anyone suggest any worlds or famous ground battles from this period that might be useful?

Secondly, if people come back from Zhodani captivity, what does the Imperial Ministry of Justice do to ensure they are not brainwashed agents? Given the Psionic suppressions, is it just interviews, or does the 3I have a technological solution to overcoming the Telepathy Gap? Apparently its an open secret the Imperium has its own teep's and underground Insitutes for espionage needs, but how good are they compared to Zhodani expertise?

Third, reading the Agent book, it wasnt too clear on which Imperial Intelligence agencies exist-who exactly is responsible for espionage and counter-espionage against the Zhodani Tozjabr? The Imperial Ministry if Justice or the Ministry of State? Or is it just a group of agents with either Imperial Sanctioning or a Shadow Badge of Humaniti?


Finally - the Ine Givar - are there any decent write ups or sources of info on them? I understand there was a Pyramid article a few years back, but did they ever get detailed elsewhere? How much are they a Zhodani front organisation?

Thx.

Steve

 

[McPerth]

Secondly, if people come back from Zhodani captivity, what does the Imperial Ministry of Justice do to ensure they are not brainwashed agents? Given the Psionic suppressions, is it just interviews, or does the 3I have a technological solution to overcoming the Telepathy Gap? Apparently its an open secret the Imperium has its own teep's and underground Insitutes for espionage needs, but how good are they compared to Zhodani expertise?

I know it's only a MT variant and not canon, but if you use it, I think most of the psionic vigilance against this would be performed by IRIS (see challenges 32 and 33) agents, as they are the only ones to be known to train some of their agents as psionics.

INI is also suspected to have psionic agents, and may also perform part of this task.

Third, reading the Agent book, it wasnt too clear on which Imperial Intelligence agencies exist-who exactly is responsible for espionage and counter-espionage against the Zhodani Tozjabr? The Imperial Ministry if Justice or the Ministry of State? Or is it just a group of agents with either Imperial Sanctioning or a Shadow Badge of Humaniti?

Aside from the cited agencies above (IRIS is told to conduct espionage/counterespionage against foreign powers, INI would be more concerned about their military capabilities), I guess the IISS intelligence
branch (part of its Detached Duty, according to CT:Bk6 and other sources) to also be involved on it.

 

[SJE]

Sorry, can you tell me what the acronyms mean?

INI Imperial Naval intelligence I'm guessing?

IRIS?

Thx.

Steve

 

[aramis]

Sorry, can you tell me what the acronyms mean?

INI Imperial Naval intelligence I'm guessing?

IRIS?

Thx.

Steve

INI=Imperial Naval Intelligence
IRIS=Imperial Research Intelligence Serivice

IRIS is supposed to be the Moot's intel service.

 

[MCEvans]

Actually,
IRIS= Imperial Regency of Intelligence and Security
answers to the High Regent (explicit) who answers to the Emperor (implied)
[Challenge 33 pp 53-58]

 

[McPerth]

IRIS is supposed to be the Moot's intel service.

Well, in fact is suposed to be an intelligence service under the direct command of the Emperor, not the moot.

Its main goal is to protect the Imperium, the Emperor, and the smooth succesion in case it's not clear, assuming the regency until a clear succesor is found and crowned.

It 's suposed to be established by Abellatra after the Civil War to avoid another such interregnum that could lead to another Civil War (and failed miserably with the Rebelion).

BTW, as I see you're a newcomer, wellcome to the board

 

[rancke]

Well, in fact is suposed to be an intelligence service under the direct command of the Emperor, not the moot.

Its main goal is to protect the Imperium, the Emperor, and the smooth succesion in case it's not clear, assuming the regency until a clear succesor is found and crowned.

It 's suposed to be established by Abellatra after the Civil War to avoid another such interregnum that could lead to another Civil War (and failed miserably with the Rebelion).

And as you mention, it's a variant. IRIS doesn't exist in the OTU.

The Imperial Navy and the Scouts each have their own intelligence sections. I can't recall hearing about one for the Imperial Army or the Marines. At a guess, the IA has one and the IM doesn't, but I could be mistaken.

According to GT: Nobles, the Ministry of State has an Intelligence Division that coordinates information collected by various sources, including its own agents. It is divided into bureaus, one of which is the Zhodani Bureau and another is the Spinward Bureau (presumably with overlapping turfs, a delightful setup for plot complications)

Counter-intelligence is NOT mentioned in the description of the Ministry of Justice, nor (AFAIK) for any other Imperial organization. An oversight, perhaps. It would certainly be plausible that the MoJ had some counter-intelligence functions.

The Emperor's has a personal clandestine courier service under the Office of Personal Transportation. I've always thought that some of the agents of the Office of Calendar Compliance comprise a covert intelligence service answering directly to the Emperor, but I don't think that is canon.

If you want a non-canonical but canon-compatible intelligence service, have the Duchy of Regina have its own.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

And as you mention, it's a variant. IRIS doesn't exist in the OTU.

One thing that has puzzled me about IRIS is that, while not being canonical, it's mentioned quite ofter in JTAS News Service after Challenge 33, making also many of its news non-canonical by extension.

The Imperial Navy and the Scouts each have their own intelligence sections. I can't recall hearing about one for the Imperial Army or the Marines. At a guess, the IA has one and the IM doesn't, but I could be mistaken.

I guess IA (if it exists, I'm not going to start the discussion again, and less so here) probably has one, as most armies do. IM would probably receive its intelligence reports from INI.

Counter-intelligence is NOT mentioned in the description of the Ministry of Justice, nor (AFAIK) for any other Imperial organization. An oversight, perhaps. It would certainly be plausible that the MoJ had some counter-intelligence functions.

IMHO it's a logical mission for internal seccurity agencies, and MOJ is the Imperium-spanding one, so I agree with you here.

The Emperor's has a personal clandestine courier service under the Office of Personal Transportation. I've always thought that some of the agents of the Office of Calendar Compliance comprise a covert intelligence service answering directly to the Emperor, but I don't think that is canon.

If you want a non-canonical but canon-compatible intelligence service, have the Duchy of Regina have its own.

It's quite probable it has, more so as Norris background is in INI. After all, in MgT:HG, Inteligence branch is open for IN and Subsector Navies. CT does not limit it, so it must be assumed even planetary Navies have their intelligence branches.

 

[mike wightman]

IRIS was very much part of MT canon once its author became the main author for the whole MT project.

Trouble is it was decanonised by the folks that brought you the brilliant TNE.

 

[AndreaV]

IRIS was very much part of MT canon once its author became the main author for the whole MT project.

Trouble is it was decanonised by the folks that brought you the brilliant TNE.

I believe the decanonisation was deliberate

 

[rancke]

IRIS was very much part of MT canon once its author became the main author for the whole MT project.

Trouble is it was decanonised by the folks that brought you the brilliant TNE.

No, the trouble was that the man who made it up became the lead editor for the MT and started using the over-the-top IRIS in the TNS newsbriefs. The fix was that the people who came after him turned it around again and made the IRIS of the OTU into a con job by an opportunistic intelligence wienie rather than a 500 your old Super-Agency.

Mind you, IRIS quite possibly exists before the Rebellion -- as an urban legend.


Hans

 

[SJE]

So it mentions in MgT Spinward Marches that its an open secret that the Imperium has covert psionic resources to fight/counter the Zhodani and other external forces- was that ever developed or detailed?

Are we then expecting the INI or Ministry of Justice to have telepath agents and where might they train them in the Marches?

Thx.

Steve

 

[mike wightman]

I believe the decanonisation was deliberate

It was very deliberate decanonisation I agree. I was glad that TNE got rid of it.

IRIS was originally a rules variant for MT. The author then became line editor and so was able to canonise his variant - much like others canonised their own pet ideas that had no part in the OTU.

The folks at GDW decided it was silly too late, but by then they had lost the plot with MT (if they ever actually had a plot, or at least an endgame in mind).

TNE was able to wipe the slate so to speak, but introduced its own setting re-writes and paradigm changes.

 

[mike wightman]

So it mentions in MgT Spinward Marches that its an open secret that the Imperium has covert psionic resources to fight/counter the Zhodani and other external forces- was that ever developed or detailed?

Are we then expecting the INI or Ministry of Justice to have telepath agents and where might they train them in the Marches?

Thx.

Steve

Probably the best source of info is the referee's section of the TNE Regency Sourcebook.

The IN maintained at least two covert psionic institutions for their own use.

 

[aramis]

Probably the best source of info is the referee's section of the TNE Regency Sourcebook.

The IN maintained at least two covert psionic institutions for their own use.

Known canonical Iimperial chartered psionic institutes are Terra/Sol/Solomani Rim and Regina/Regina/Spinward Marches.

 

[Riik O'Shae]

Soooo....

Where does IBIS fit into this game...?

Riik

 

[McPerth]

So it mentions in MgT Spinward Marches that its an open secret that the Imperium has covert psionic resources to fight/counter the Zhodani and other external forces- was that ever developed or detailed?

Are we then expecting the INI or Ministry of Justice to have telepath agents and where might they train them in the Marches?

Thx.

Steve

Also in TNE core book (page 171) hints us Norris was not against psionics, and his seneschal was a talented telepath, so it's easy to believe that he held his own psi agents.

 

[Carlobrand]

Also in TNE core book (page 171) hints us Norris was not against psionics, and his seneschal was a talented telepath, so it's easy to believe that he held his own psi agents.

Wait, what? IRIS was decanonized, but a man so unswervingly loyal to the Imperium that he retained his allegiance even after the rest of the Imperium had disintegrated into utter chaos, a man holding the most powerful and politically sensitive office in a sector bordering a hostile power dominated by psionics, had a seneschal who was a closet psi - and he knew it?

(Sometimes I think all these changes owe more to interpersonal rivalries and infighting among the game designers than to any game-related needs.)

Getting back to the OP question:
Future-tech psychology and neurology may be up to detecting psionically induced changes in a personality. Consider for example: answering a battery of questions while under an imaging scanner capable of tracing the pattern of firing of individual neurons. You could do a baseline on entering service and annually, then do a comparison with the baseline when he was released. That would detect any significant changes in drives or inclinations, and depending on their level of knowledge of neurology and human memory, it might detect changes that were artificially induced, as opposed to changes occurring from true experience.

Similarly, questioning about history or past events while under imaging might reveal discrepancies in the patterns of memory formation indicative of artificially implanted memories, and it might also revealed blank areas where memories were deliberately isolated from the rest of the personality.

Trouble is, while that would tell you the man had been tampered with, it might not tell you how or why he had been tampered with. A man could have an isolated bloc of memory or false memories because he had an implanted sleeper personality waiting for a trigger word, or it could be because the Zhos had blanked out some terrible war crime committed on him and his peers during his captivity. Other carefully planted evidence - rumors carefully cultivated among the civilians of a captive world, for example - could mislead the examiners into misattributing the reason for his test results, causing the man to be misclassified as a psionic injury case rather than as a potential sleeper.

The Zhos doing it on a large number of his peers from the same camp could leave Imperial officials with a needle-in-a-haystack problem: here are all these ex-prisoners who appear to have been victims of a war crime that was blanked from their memories, but one or more of them just might be a sleeper agent. Which one, and how do they guard against that one without restricting all of the victims and creating a political backlash?

This is speculative, of course; our own knowledge of the brain is pretty limited. However, it serves as a basis for speculative fiction.

 

[rancke]

Wait, what? IRIS was decanonized, but a man so unswervingly loyal to the Imperium that he retained his allegiance even after the rest of the Imperium had disintegrated into utter chaos, a man holding the most powerful and politically sensitive office in a sector bordering a hostile power dominated by psionics, had a seneschal who was a closet psi - and he knew it?

It would be strange if he didn't know his lover was a psionic adept.

Mind you, even without that particular personal relationship, Norris would most probably have had a court psionic anyway. Someone to protect him against psionic assaults. It's my belief (not backed by any canon) that most powerful men have tame psionics working for them secretly. As do intelligence agencies.

(Sometimes I think all these changes owe more to interpersonal rivalries and infighting among the game designers than to any game-related needs.)

No change. I think it's inherent in the original situation. Kings and nobles have been sheltering members of proscribed races, creeds, and persuasions throughout history. All it usually takes is that the persons that are being sheltered are useful in some way. Or amusing. And as the average psionic would be more useful than the average member of almost any other persecuted group I can think of, many nobles and billionaires and corporate managers will have reasons to get a tame psionic. Though no doubt there are some big muckety-mucks who fear and hate psionics and won't have anything to do with them.

However, psionic prejudice is (again IMO) inversely proportional to education. The reason kings and nobles don't repeal anti-psionic laws and openly employ psionics is that their subjects would give them endless trouble over it, not that they wouldn't very much like to do just that.


Hans

 

[Baron]

A very good idea for a scenario! I finally watched The Manchurian Candidate for the first time, a few months ago. Wish I was in your group! Good luck with it.