Low Berth Survival

[Golan2072]

One thing that bothers me is the high risk of death from Low Passage. According to Book 2, a healthy person has to roll 5+ to survive the trip (or the equivalent of 4+ if a medic with a Medic-2 or better skill attends him), and an infirm (END 6-) person would have to roll 6+ to survive without the medic or 5+ with him. In terms of probability, without medical attention 17%, on avarage, of low passengers would die; with medical attention, 8%; for infirm persons without medical attention 28%.

Therefore, it's quite a risky way to travel; risky enough to discourage most people (and players) except for the most desperate ones to use it. It might be fitting for TL8-9 sublight colony ships (which are very risky anyway), but I think that the low berths found on so many commercial ships would be simply unprofitable if only a few people would ever opt to use them, and might even be outlawed due to the risk factor.

On the other hand I still want to retain a certain level of grit and to keep low berths undesirable for those who could afford better modes of travel (which are 8-10 times more expensive).

My general direction of thought about a solution to this issue is of a DM for higher TL low berths (+1 on TL11/12 and +2 on TL13+) as well as replacing the "instant death" result with 4D6 wounds, applied according to thje "first shot" rule. Additionally, I'll give a DM of +2 (instead of the standard +1) to passengers who had a Medic-2 attend them BEFORE entering the cryo-sleep as well as AFTER it - so healthy persons who use cryo-sleep using the "standard procedure" with modern (TL12) cryotubes usually get out well; unhealthy persons, or people using emergency and/or older low berthes take quite a risk.

So, how do you deal with this in your game/YTU?

 

[Spinward Scout]

The wounds instead of death started with MT I think. Something about your skin turning grey and worse depending on your roll. Going to space is risky. I don't think Low Berths would be outlawed except maybe by extremists. It's like using any medicine nowadays - you could take two asprin and die because your blood thinned and a blood clot broke loose in one of your arteries and travelled to your brain. There's always some chance of something happenning. 17% is still high, tho. Check out MegaTraveller if you can.

Scout

 

[TheEngineer]

I simply accept, that travelling in a low berth is a risky business. On the other hand you do not waste life time during travel... worth a risk ?
At least the MT way to handle low passages is a bit more traveller friendly and under right circumstances low berthing is pretty safe here.

Mert

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by TheEngineer:
At least the MT way to handle low passages is a bit more traveller friendly and under right circumstances low berthing is pretty safe here.

That's the effect I'm aiming to under the right circumstances. Under the wrong circumstances, on the other hand, it could be pretty unpleasant, to say the least. That is, take a normal low passage, and, if you're healthy, it should be pretty safe. But emergency use, which is without preperation, is quite risky - injury, for the very least, if not death.

I think I'll simply stick to 5d6 wounds and not change the chances. That is, roll 5d6, apply to one stat; stat goes to zero - apply the rest to the next; goes to zero as well, apply the remainder to the third stat; goes to zero - sayonara.

 

[Whipsnade]

Employee 2-4601 wrote:

That's the effect I'm aiming to under the right circumstances. Under the wrong circumstances, on the other hand, it could be pretty unpleasant, to say the least.

Dear 2-4601,

That's my take on the situation too. Even before MT drew the low berth's fangs, I had already fiddled with survival rates IMTU. (I fiddled the costs downward too.)

IMTU, low berth travel is at a level of Western airliner safety. More accurately, it is at that level of safety under the right circumstances.

Fly British Air between London and New York and enjoy your trip. Fly Air Senegal between Lagos and Harare and you deserve what happens to you.

Take a Tukera low berth between Glisten and Strouden and enjoy your dreams. Take a tramp trader's low berth between Kwai Ching and Tarsus and... well, let's say your life insurance should be paid up or one of your party (hopefully the medic) should travel 'warm'.

It all depends on where you going and who you've paid to take you there. That's been pretty much the story of travel for most of human history.


Sincerely,
Bill

 

[vegascat]

Low berths have more uses than just interplanetary travel. IMTU, you can stack up to 4 people in a berth in emergencies, -1 per person over 1. Emergency med teams have low berths in EMS vehicles at TL12 on some planets and in better mercenary companies for severly wounded. Damage can be repaired while frozen by properly trained surgeons. DM to survive = 1/2 surgeons skill.

Modifiers used are
- Low berth fully maintained between each person (required by major lines)+1
- Low berth minimally maintained by trained tech no mod
- Low berth not maintained by trained tech -1
- Med Tech medical skill +1/2
- Passenger fully prepped for a full week (required by major lines) +1
- Passenger dropped in with no prep -1
- Passenger prepped for 24 hours minimum no mod
- Roll less than a 5 or a natural 2 and you just had a very bad reaction, roll 5d damage and hope the medic on duty is up on his emergency procedures.

 

[aramis]

MT says:
To have a patient survive Low Berth revival: Routine, Medical, Int, 1min, fateful.
Use the attending medic's skills. So, a roll of 7-(Skill+(Int/5)) or more on 2d6 is needed. Assuming Joe Average Starship Medic (Med 1, Int 7), that's the same 5+ needed, and it takes from 1-16 minutes.
Taking extra time (doubling) to 2-32 minutes, makes it DM+4...
On a fail, roll for mishap on 2d. Mishap dice total
3-6 patient takes: 1d wounds, lasting 1d days, then healing normally. skin discolored and wrinkled for 1d6 weeks
7-10 patient takes: 2d wounds for 1d6 days. 1d6 weeks motor function (2 points dex) loss for 1d6 week.
11-14 patient takes: 3d permanent wounds... will heal only with medical treatment including surgury or similar level of care.
15+ patient is Dead.

Note that MT says not to use the additional mishap die from Natural 2 or fail by 2+ for low berth survival. I usually use it only if the attending doc is unskilled, the berth is damaged, or the task is made hasty... I like the rare chance of a F***-up killing a passenger, but I want it to always be malpractice that causes it... heheheh

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by vegascat:
Low berths have more uses than just interplanetary travel. IMTU, you can stack up to 4 people in a berth in emergencies, -1 per person over 1. Emergency med teams have low berths in EMS vehicles at TL12 on some planets and in better mercenary companies for severly wounded. Damage can be repaired while frozen by properly trained surgeons. DM to survive = 1/2 surgeons skill.

Modifiers used are
- Low berth fully maintained between each person (required by major lines)+1
- Low berth minimally maintained by trained tech no mod
- Low berth not maintained by trained tech -1
- Med Tech medical skill +1/2
- Passenger fully prepped for a full week (required by major lines) +1
- Passenger dropped in with no prep -1
- Passenger prepped for 24 hours minimum no mod
- Roll less than a 5 or a natural 2 and you just had a very bad reaction, roll 5d damage and hope the medic on duty is up on his emergency procedures.

Seems quite reasonable... Though I'd probably also add a modifier by TL, with TL8 having very risky low berths, and TL15 low berths being almost perfectly safe, unless adverse circumstances are involved.

 

[Golan2072]

My Approach to Low Berths:
My task system is used; according to it, to revive a low passenger:

Medic (EDU, Avarage, 30mins)

DMs:
-2 if the berth's TL is 8-9
-1 if the berth's TL is 10-11
+1 if the berth's TL is 14-15
+2 if the berth's TL is 16+
+2 if berth is fully maintained between passengers
-2 if ship is overdue for maintainance by up to a year
-4 if ship is overdue for maintainace by more than a year
+2 if passenger is fully prepped (takes a few hours)
-1 if passenger is not prepared but is frozen using the standard procedure (takes 30 minutes)
-2 if emergency-frozen (takes less than a minute)
-4 if no Medic is present

The ship's medic rolls. Success means that the passenger awakens normally and is good to go in about 30 minutes; failure causes a Serious Wound (see my combat system).

A quick rule-of-a-thumb: If the total DMs includimg the Medic's skill and attribute DMs) are equal to +8 or greater, assume automatic success unless special circumstances apply (that is, unless the referee decrees otherwise); if they are equal to -8 or lower, assume automatic failure.

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
One thing that bothers me is the high risk of death from Low Passage. According to Book 2, a healthy person has to roll 5+ to survive the trip (or the equivalent of 4+ if a medic with a Medic-2 or better skill attends him), and an infirm (END 6-) person would have to roll 6+ to survive without the medic or 5+ with him. In terms of probability, without medical attention 17%, on avarage, of low passengers would die; with medical attention, 8%; for infirm persons without medical attention 28%.

So, how do you deal with this in your game/YTU?

IMTU I simply bend the CT rules a little. I have no need to re-write the rules. I simply ammend the existing rules.

It says that Medic-2 gives a +1 DM for a survival throw.

Simple solution. IMTU, the presence of a Medic-4 gives a +2 DM for a survival throw. Net result? Chance of death is far lower because death only results when you roll a 2 (snake eyes).

Do remember: a Medic-2 is simply the equivalent of a nurse, a combat medic, paramedic, nurse-practitioner, an EMT, or an RCP. These individuals are trained to do on-the-spot CPR skills and resuscitate a patient with common rescusitate drugs such as Epi (epinephrine) or whatever its equivalent will be in the Year 5000. But they won't be able to do much if the patient is really coding or hemmorrhaging to death. You really need a trained physician/surgeon to do that.

BTW: I have worked in hospitals for years, and my current training is (IMHO) I consider the Classic Traveller equivalent of Medic-2 skill. I know my medical skills and the limits of my medical license fairly well.

The Canon rules have said several times that A REAL DOCTOR (having completed Medical School training and residency) is defined as having a minimum of Medic-3. Supplement 4 Citizens of the Imperium says this explicitly. A surgeon is at least a Medic-3 with a high dexterity on top of that. A skilled surgeon would be Medic-4 or higher (and of course a high dexterity).

Armed with that knowledge, my ammendment makes perfect sense, as the presence of "A SKILLED DOCTOR/SURGEON" aboard the ship will make the chance of death a lot lower. Even if things go bad, the skilled doc/surgeon can at least be expected to save *some* lives, tho he may not save everyone all the time.

And as IMTU goes, a nice fully staffed starliner such as a 600-ton Tukera starliner (this is a canon passenger liner), will have a good chance of enlisting a resident doctor (Medic-4) in the crew. IMTU I do make a distinction if the individual is doing low berth passage aboard a NICE well-crewed passenger ship, or aboard a NOT-SO-NICE scummy passenger ship. Characters take their chances aboard the latter types of vessels.

I do also agree with the suggestions above of positive DMs for the higher tech levels. You are simply less likely to die in berth aboard a well-crewed TL14 cruiser than you are aboard a TL9 first-generation space ship.

 

[Maladominus]

The only thing I don't agree with is the "automatic success" rule.

IMTU, someone is going to die if they are unlucky enough to roll snake eyes. There is always a chance of death if you are unlucky (or cheapskate) enough to buy a low passage.

IMHO, if you desire "automatic success", then buy yourself a Middle Passage. Just my 2 credits.

 

[Golan2072]

Ok, I guess that you've convinced me to remove the automatic success/failure rules.

 

[Qstor2]

*bump*

How long would any emergency battery last to keep the person alive in the low berth, if the ship is under attack. The only reference I could find was in GT which said the power cell running the unit could last for six months.

thanks

Mike

 

[far-trader]

Well CT B2 says that with loss of the power plant (hidden in the Drive Failure notes) there is enough battery reserve to provide life support and basic lighting* for 1D6 days so you're good for that long before you have to worry about internal backups on the casket itself.

* and presumably heat, but not artificial gravity and such comforts, and I think it adds some fine tension if I make the roll in secret

However MTU is a bit different...

First off the 1D6 days is per powerplant rating. So a P2 is good for 2D6 days of battery power and so on. Just seems that a bigger powerplant should have more reserve capacity.

Second (for what it's worth) I also figure that a ship's Captain may in desperation have battery power fed directly into the ship grid to give 1D6 turns of full power (and again the roll is secret). This is not multiplied by the powerplant rating because that's how ship power works. If interrupted before the full roll is used, each turn not used is good for 1 day of life support and basic lighting per powerplant rating.

Third, way back in the LBB1-3 days I figured you only needed power for lowberths at two points, putting someone(thing) in one, and getting them out again. The onboard reserve is enough for one or the other. So someone put in a lowberth could be revived even if they have been there for a long time as long as either power is supplied or the reserve has not been used or damaged. This idea is supported by TNE's "Relic" characters. People who for whatever reason were in lowberths for a long time and found and revived.

Anyway, there's an official (old) answer and some MTU to chew on and adapt as you please.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

In MT a lowberth consumes "just" 1 kW per hour.
Considering a price of 50000 Cr I would assume, that there are internal emergency batteries or even more efficient emergency fuel cells included, lasting hours up to days.

I don't know a general official hint on this topic, but if its important for a story, I would use data from the common design sequence to flesh this out in detail.
E.g. a integral TL-12 battery could provide emergeny power for 1 hour for about 850 Cr, while a small fuel cell could do that for perhaps 100 hours for the same price.

Considering the availability of power sources in the TU, I guess its very hard to disrupt the complete power supply for a ship.
A set of emergency fuel cells could provide enough power for most vital systems and the related costs are nearly nothing.

Regards,

TE

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by far-trader:

Third, way back in the LBB1-3 days I figured you only needed power for lowberths at two points, putting someone(thing) in one, and getting them out again. The onboard reserve is enough for one or the other. So someone put in a lowberth could be revived even if they have been there for a long time as long as either power is supplied or the reserve has not been used or damaged. This idea is supported by TNE's "Relic" characters. People who for whatever reason were in lowberths for a long time and found and revived.

This is (almost) the way I play it (I'm CT). Power would be needed to maintain suspension if the ambient temperature were a couple of hundred K or so, but if the compartment is powered down / open to space, then the external and internal temperatures are compatible at a few K and you can revive an occupant decades, possibly centuries on. The survival chances would diminish with time, however.
Perversely, if the Power plant is dead and the Low Berth bay is holed, the chances of survival are increased!

 

[Jame]

Employee's DMs, as modified by me:
-2 if the berth's TL is 8-9
-1 if the berth's TL is 10-11
+1 if the berth's TL is 12-14
+2 if the berth's TL is 15-16
+3 if the berth's TL is 17+
+1 if berth is fully maintained between passengers
-2 if ship is overdue for maintainance by up to a year
-4 if ship is overdue for maintainace by more than a year
+2 if passenger is fully prepped (takes a few hours)
-1 if passenger is not prepared but is frozen using the standard procedure (takes 30 minutes)
-2 if emergency-frozen (takes less than a minute)
-4 if no Medic is present

My logic for the +1 at TL-12 is that they figure out suspended animation/nanostasis (a la Transhuman Space) here; YMMV of course.

 

[Straybow]

Well, the idea is that off-the-shelf tech with push-button operation means very mature technology. I just don't see that for a civilization at TL8. It's a little different if your civ is at higher TL but your manufacturing facilities are at TL8.

For a civilization below TL10 I'd require a Cold-sleep Med-tech in attendance or suffer -2 at TL9 or -4 at TL8. This is in addition to Medic (can be same person as Medic, but must have specific learned skill). If it is only the manufacture that is lower tech, then this doesn't apply.

I'd reduce the penalty for "no Medic" by one for each TL above TL10.

 

[Gadrin]

Hi !

In MT a lowberth consumes "just" 1 kW per hour.
Considering a price of 50000 Cr I would assume, that there are internal emergency batteries or even more efficient emergency fuel cells included, lasting hours up to days.

I don't know a general official hint on this topic, but if its important for a story, I would use data from the common design sequence to flesh this out in detail.
E.g. a integral TL-12 battery could provide emergeny power for 1 hour for about 850 Cr, while a small fuel cell could do that for perhaps 100 hours for the same price.

Considering the availability of power sources in the TU, I guess its very hard to disrupt the complete power supply for a ship.
A set of emergency fuel cells could provide enough power for most vital systems and the related costs are nearly nothing.

Regards,

TE

sounds reasonable, there's nothing preventing if you've got an qualified mechanic or engineer aboard that they can't recharge those batteries via another source, say from a MHD powered air/raft or something similar (another vehicle aboard) the starship.

I'd say as a GM I'd allow even independents to be fairly handy when coming up with backup plans for a great deal of starship equipment.

 

[Jame]

Well, the idea is that off-the-shelf tech with push-button operation means very mature technology. I just don't see that for a civilization at TL8. It's a little different if your civ is at higher TL but your manufacturing facilities are at TL8.

For a civilization below TL10 I'd require a Cold-sleep Med-tech in attendance or suffer -2 at TL9 or -4 at TL8. This is in addition to Medic (can be same person as Medic, but must have specific learned skill). If it is only the manufacture that is lower tech, then this doesn't apply.

I'd reduce the penalty for "no Medic" by one for each TL above TL10.

I'm not sure if I agree with this, but it's certainly something to consider.