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Low & E-low berth questions

JAFARR

SOC-14 1K
For some reason the ship's crew has to take to the low berths and hope for rescue: 1. What ship systems must remain in operation to support the berths?
2. How long can the berths be sustained provided the requirements in question 1 are met?
3. How long can the human body survive in cold sleep?
4. Is it possible for some member(s) of the crew to be automatically revived to periodically revive the others to prolong that time if revival and re-entering cold sleep will extend that time?
5. What kind of ship would possibly have the capabilities to perform the function(s) necessary to perform question 4 if that is possible?
 
1. What ship systems must remain in operation to support the berths?

Power supply

2. How long can the berths be sustained provided the requirements in question 1 are met?

Almost indefinitely

. How long can the human body survive in cold sleep?

See #2

4. Is it possible for some member(s) of the crew to be automatically revived to periodically revive the others to prolong that time if revival and re-entering cold sleep will extend that time?

See #2

5. What kind of ship would possibly have the capabilities to perform the function(s) necessary to perform question 4 if that is possible?

See #2
 
For some reason the ship's crew has to take to the low berths and hope for rescue: 1. What ship systems must remain in operation to support the berths?
At a minimum, the power plant (at VERY low levels-just a trickle), the computer (again, at lowest levels). I'm not sure if the life support must remain active, but if so, it could be reduced to almost nothing, and/or reducing the areas of the ship where it is running to where the low berths are located.

2. How long can the berths be sustained provided the requirements in question 1 are met?
This will mainly depend upon the amount of fuel available, which it can be assumed in this case is 'very little'. Solar panels could be deployed, which will not provide much power (assuming the ship is nowhere near a star), but may increase endurance.

3. How long can the human body survive in cold sleep?
I don't know of any defined limits, but I've read of cases of people being revived after centuries in low berth.

4. Is it possible for some member(s) of the crew to be automatically revived to periodically revive the others to prolong that time if revival and re-entering cold sleep will extend that time?
I've never heard if this is possible. IMO, the computer would have to be of a higher level than available on most tramp/fartrader/scout vessels that characters normally traverse the stars in (though I could be wrong here).

5. What kind of ship would possibly have the capabilities to perform the function(s) necessary to perform question 4 if that is possible?
See answer for #4.

Hope this helps.
 
For some reason the ship's crew has to take to the low berths and hope for rescue: 1. What ship systems must remain in operation to support the berths?

IMTU, no ships systems are necessary, in fact if the ship is completely shut down and falls to ~3K the required power input is reduced to virtually zero - much of the power requirement is to provide the temperature differential between the berth and ambient.
My berths are independently powered by RTGs: one of the few remaining uses for fission.

2. How long can the berths be sustained provided the requirements in question 1 are met?

For the life of the RTG - several decades, possibly centuries.

3. How long can the human body survive in cold sleep?

The human body can remain in cold sleep for centuries, and in fact there may be no upper limit. However, the process is not perfect, and the longer a body remains in cold sleep the more difficult it becomes to revive it - particularly if great care wasn't taken over the freezing process. A body frozen experimentally under controlled laboratory conditions will revive much more easily than one hurriedly frozen in an emergency. Examples of emergency cases being successfully revived after a couple of centuries are known, but rare. Laboratory experiments are often shrouded in secrecy...

4. Is it possible for some member(s) of the crew to be automatically revived to periodically revive the others to prolong that time if revival and re-entering cold sleep will extend that time?

Theoretically, yes, but it may not make practical sense exept in the very long term. Each revival has a chance of failure, and repeated thawing and refreezing will be counter-productive. Besides which, there is a chance that the 'carer' may not survive the thawing, so a number of carers would have to be designated for redundancy. Such a process would only make sense toward the RTG's end-of-life, and even then only if another power source were available.

5. What kind of ship would possibly have the capabilities to perform the function(s) necessary to perform question 4 if that is possible?

IMTU all ships have the capability for auto-revival, but the lack of an attending medic makes it a riskier operation. It is not a procedure of choice.
 
While I love the idea of using RTGs for these sort of uses, the problem with RTGs is that they rely on the halflife of the radioactive element

while they last for decades or even centuries their power output continually diminishes and there is no off switch .... the power must be used or diverted to somewhere else
 
No hijack intended but I've always wondered what-how other players and referees have interpreted cold sleep units, not as to how the process works but more the hardware involved

Simply said, I've seen both dry and wet cold sleep systems depicted in such films as Alien and Event Horizon, also such raises the question of horizontal or vertical 'postures' taken by the 'sleepers.

Classic SF films such as Forbidden Planet and This Island Earth also have presented unique examples of crew protection during hyperspace-jumpspace travel but could easily enough be seen as possible variant cold sleep processes.

Myself, I've had both wet and dry options available on starships but the more 'industrial' less user-friendly cold sleep methods on 'working' vessels than say passenger liners or yachts, as such being quick and dirty and likely cheaper to operate and maintain.
 
And that's a problem because...?

how do you design a device to work off 1Kw this week and do the same task in 5-10 years on only 700w ?

An RTG is going to half life down in output regardless of whether its used ... remember there is no off switch so taking an RTG out of storage after a few years will mean a lower output

after 30 odd years the RTGs on Voyager etc have "half lifed" down so far that they can only activate instruments one at a time. several other missions have had similar issues even on a shorter timescale
 
Traveller power plants evidently contains a fair bit of handwavium. I don't recall any canonical examples[*], but there are several examples in JTAS Online adventures of people surviving for centuries in low berths (though survival chances got worse as time went by).

[*] Though I vaguely remember... wasn't there someone who survived from the end of the Rebellion till the New Era in low berth? That's 70 years. And I think there was a TD article about low berths; maybe that said something about it.​

For me the bottom line is that I want the possibility of digging out someone who'd spent 500 years or 1000 or 2000 in low berth if the plot requires it. I don't mind if the survival chances are very poor over those sort of timespans, as long as they're not completely impossible. Sure, I can use misjumps and Ancient stasis fields for the same purpose, but I want low berths available too.

So as far as I'm concerned, starship power plants are able to keep up a trickle of power needed for keeping low berths running for multiple centuries.


Hans
 
The adventre in question was Flash Forward; it was apparently written presuming TNE fuel rates for PP... and does not presume an unattended single freeze, either, IIRC.

Further, prior to MT, no requirement for power was noted for low berths; in MT, there is a constant power requirement. Specifically, 1kW. (2kW for an ELB.)

Adding a battery backup from the MT power listing: TL 9 is 0.6kWH/L, TL 15 is 7kWH/L. So a ton-displacement of batteries is 8400kWH at TL9, for 50 weeks, and 98,000kWH for 583 weeks at TL 15, or just over 11 years.
 
I take my cues on this originally from CT, though I've used variants, embellished, and adopted material over the years and editions.

Required ship systems: Varies:

i) None required, minimal facilities are typical though.

Cold LBs and ELBs in mtu are stand alone units. This is the base model (TL9). They are typically installed in dedicated facilities for safety and convenience reasons but can be operated and carried anywhere there is room. They require no power. The usage cost factor is for drugs, chemicals, and freezing fluids. They can maintain the state indefinitely if sealed though there is some slight increase in mortality over time and breaking the seal will kill the occupant(s). They are durable but not armored. There is no automated revival procedure. Installation is partly automated (after hooking up the IV feeds by Medic0 minimum) but revival requires actions by an individual (again Medic0 minimum) though it could be a robotic stand in if properly built. The subject must be given a second treatment of drugs, a chemical flush, and resuscitated (all included in the cost factor). The only difference between LBs and ELBs is the processing time. LBs are average for installing and reviving the subject (an hour). ELBs trade quick installation (minutes) for slow revival (hours). The third option, Frozen Watch Berths (FWBs) trade slow installation (hours) for quick revival (minutes). Cold Berths involve messy liquids and occupants must enter naked with no other gear (unless implanted and largely inert), and emerging from them leaves the occupants feeling cold and covered in slimy glop. A warm shower in a fresher is advised. Temporary hair loss, from spotty to complete, is a common side effect. Frequent Cold Berthers simply maintain a hairless regime rather than fight it and are easily spotted for it.

ii) Minimal facilities are required.

Grav Berths are available at the same cost and performance as Cold Berths with the usage of advanced gravitic manipulation (TL13) replacing the need for drugs, chemicals, and freezing fluids. The facilities look very much like the ones typical for Cold Berths but incorporate power feeds for the gravitics. As long as power is maintained the units will preserve the subject. The usage cost factor is waived for these models. Unlike Cold Berths a Grav Berth cannot be maintained without a power supply. They incorporate a small emergency battery power supply good for about an hour and have an emergency protocol to start the revival process (equals attending Medic0) if power drops below that needed to maintain the berth. Installation and revival can be completely automated through the ship's computer or a hand computer linked to a specific berth (both equal attending Medic2). Processing times are similar to Cold Berths. Grav Berths do not involve the mess of slimy glop, nor require completely naked subjects. Most materials are compatible with the gravitic freezing process and will not be adversely affected allowing occupants to enter and exit wearing their clothes and carrying most personal items. Items with volatile chemicals (explosives, acids, etc.) should not be subjected to the process for safety, this covers most electronics (including some implanted medical devices) and firearms. Side effects are all but negligible.

A few notes on "Relics" and "Timers":

In TNE some people discovered in Berths decades later were successfully revived. They were valued for their knowledge of pre-fall technology, almost as much as they were reviled for their part in the fall. Survival for such extended periods is possible but rare. Cold Berths that maintained seals, and Grav Berths that maintained power were both sources of Relics in (my) TNE.

CT notes that a dead power plant still provides emergency battery power for life support and basic lighting (not computer) for 1D days. In MTU that's redefined as 1 day per power plant number, so a PP1 has battery power for 1 day, a PP4 would have battery power for 4 days, and so on. This power will be sufficient to maintain Grav Berths as well. And if the battery power were drained solely by the Berths it would last considerably longer (decades x PP#). This could happen if the ship shut down all non required life support and lighting as part of it's emergency shut down protocol, and the ship were abandoned or all the crew were dead. This is how some Grav Berth Relics survived.

There are other long time survivors of Berths though, and some of these were also Relics in TNE. They are Timers. People who engage in long duration Berthing to skip ahead decades at a time but not leaving their home world. To see the fruits of long term investments or plans. Or simply to escape death in hopes of a future cure. These individuals engage in this practice at private installations of advanced (expensive) Berths or through groups (Timer Clubs) founded to provide the service for a premium.
 
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Here are my house rules for low berths. ISTR posting something similar in another thread not too long ago, but I can't recall where and when exactly. Apologies if you feel you've seen this before.

(These rules are the GT version; I can't find the CT version, but it shouldn't be difficult to come up with something similar).

House rule: Low Berths

There are three methods for putting someone into low berth. The first is to put him in the low berth and activate it. Anyone can do that -- a person can even do it for himself using delayed activation. This takes five minutes (ten if the occupant is doing it himself). The second takes five minutes and requires someone with Physician 10+ or Electronic Operation (Medical) 10+ to supervise. The third takes 30 minutes and requires a qualified medical doctor to supervise (this is the method the Navy uses for its Frozen Watch).

If the first method was used, revival takes hours and requires the attention of a full medical team and a hospital.

If the second method was used, revival takes 15 minutes and will automatically succeed if supervised by someone with either of the skills mentioned above. Otherwise, roll against HT; the occupant dies on a critical failure (unless he can be rushed to a hospital and ressucitated). One medical technician can superwise up to four revivals simultaneously.

If the third method was used, the occupant revives automatically without any special attention as soon as the revival routine is activated. Useful for reviving a Frozen Watch member in battle.

All the above assumes that revival takes place within months or at most a few years. Complications accrue when someone stays in a low berth for decades and centuries.

Also, there's a small risk of complication even if everything is done right. It's very low and doesn't come up unless the plot requires it ;).​

Hans
 
how do you design a device to work off 1Kw this week and do the same task in 5-10 years on only 700w ?

An RTG is going to half life down in output regardless of whether its used ... remember there is no off switch so taking an RTG out of storage after a few years will mean a lower output

after 30 odd years the RTGs on Voyager etc have "half lifed" down so far that they can only activate instruments one at a time. several other missions have had similar issues even on a shorter timescale

You install a 2Kw device, an electronic supply monitor, some bypass circuitry and a heat sink. (For the cost/energy conscious, you could divert excess power from new berths into the ship's systems and give the customer a discount...)
Simply decide on the required life of the supply and install a RTG big enough to cope over that period.

Or just use different isotopes. Slap some plutonium pellets in there and your half life is a quarter of a million years. The Imperium may have more lenient H&S regulations than we do, thanks to better shielding and improved medical care.
 
Fluid is good a la Event Horizon.
No-one wants to wake up one year later with festering pus-ridden bedsores (much as I love the Alien movies).
 
Fluid is good a la Event Horizon.
No-one wants to wake up one year later with festering pus-ridden bedsores (much as I love the Alien movies).

Two points:

1. Bedsores develop as a result of metabolic changes that, presumably, cryogenic suspension is intended to halt.

2. Fluid itself might have a deleterious effect over time, and that effect may not be dependent on metabolic change. As such, the fluid environment may cause more problems than it solves.
 
I mention them, because I read that bedsores are caused by tissue compression and the formation of pressure ulcers...

If so, then a foam surface would spread out and minimize the pressure across the body surface, and if it could be made to ripple somehow then it would stimulate circulation and possibly eliminate the symptoms.

But that would only work for something like a comatose subject. I thought low berths stopped all metabolic functions, putting the body into suspension where the sores could not develop. That is why the subject does not age while in the berth.
 
I would tend to believe the fluid in use by 'wet' systems would be of a composition-formula that serves many needs and purposes than a simple life suspension process.

First and foremost, the medium would support the 'sleeper's' body in a null G and inertia-prohibitive embrace as a preventative to bruising and blood-pooling from uncontrolled motion or the lack there of.

Many different pharmaceutical compounds would also be at work in said fluid, designer drugs to retard hair and nail growth as well as epidermal maintenance would be a given. It would be very important for the skin of a 'sleeper' to be able to 'breathe' in the immersion suspension environment, medical sensors need to be able to monitor the chemicals and gases released by a body and also deliver said pharmaceuticals.

Another thought is the 'wet' environment could also be capable of a long term rescue function by becoming a gel-like consistency, in essence a protective cocoon to package the 'sleeper' until recovery occurs.
 
I see you are using a "warm low-berth" paradigm... I always viewed Traveller "low berth" as a "cold" system (blame my having been brought up on 1950s/60s SF), where the "sleeper" is stored cryogenically... thus "corpsicle", and "thawing out".

I believe that this interpretation is also supported by terminology used in the rulebooks.
 
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