Mandatory Coldsleep During Jump

[whartung]

I want to use that.

"What's the situation there, Lieutenant."

"Well, sir, Traffic Control noticed that the 'Far and Away' had arrived out of jump, but was not responding to hails. It wasn't responding, wasn't maneuvering. So we sent a team over that boarded her. They're clearing the ship now, but so far have found the crew dead. But it wasn't something "unknown". It was a bloodbath. We're not sure who shot who, or stabbed whomever. Still sorting it out. But its a real mess, sir."

"I think I've seen this before, I'll dispatch Dr. Franklin, Cosmo-psychologist, over as part of the investigation."

"Oh, really quick sir just got an update. They found a little girl, alive, locked in the Ships Locker. Someone shoved her and a stuffed animal in there and welded the door shut from the outside."

"Right. Ok....Uh...yea. Ok. We're assembling a team. They'll be on their way in quarter of an hour. Keep searching, don't let your guard down until you've cleared the ship. The next locker you open may be someone with plasma rifle."

"Roger that, sir."

 

[Nathan Brazil]

So, in theory, does this eliminate interstellar invasions/combat? Does it then devolve to ground-based merc options?

With sublight travel there is another, though riskier, way to handle it. "Bring everything with you win or lose". Two examples:
The movie Independence Day - The aliens bring all the resources needed for the entire invasion: fighter craft, capital ships, troops and troop transports and even a base in the form of that asteroid/moon.
Harry Turtledove's WorldWar series of books. The Race does everything at sublight. The empire was already three star systems and Earth was to be number four. Hey, so their their most recent reconnaissance showed us using metal armor and swords on horseback. Who knew we would develop the combustion engine, tanks and primitive radar, in less than 800 years?

 

[Vargr Breath]

This makes me think of the opening scene

 

[willtron3030]

"What's the situation there, Lieutenant."

"Well, sir, Traffic Control noticed that the 'Far and Away' had arrived out of jump, but was not responding to hails. It wasn't responding, wasn't maneuvering. So we sent a team over that boarded her. They're clearing the ship now, but so far have found the crew dead. But it wasn't something "unknown". It was a bloodbath. We're not sure who shot who, or stabbed whomever. Still sorting it out. But its a real mess, sir."

"I think I've seen this before, I'll dispatch Dr. Franklin, Cosmo-psychologist, over as part of the investigation."

"Oh, really quick sir just got an update. They found a little girl, alive, locked in the Ships Locker. Someone shoved her and a stuffed animal in there and welded the door shut from the outside."

"Right. Ok....Uh...yea. Ok. We're assembling a team. They'll be on their way in quarter of an hour. Keep searching, don't let your guard down until you've cleared the ship. The next locker you open may be someone with plasma rifle."

"Roger that, sir."

"And Lieutenant -- advise the team that the child may be extremely dangerous."

 

[Diveguy]

This makes me think of the opening scene

That scene was one of my inspirations for the post.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[kilemall]

Of course there is that malfunction problem, accidental or otherwise.

Stewart

Maryann Stewart was a female astronaut who accompanied George Taylor, John Landon and Thomas Dodge on their fate-filled expedition through space. Six months into their mission, the crew placed themselves into a state of suspended animation, in preparation for their long voyage. While they slept...

planetoftheapes.fandom.com

 

[Condottiere]

It's perfectly safe to plug stuff into any socket that is compatible.

 

[Spinward Flow]

It's perfectly safe to plug stuff into any socket that is compatible.

I've told this story before on these forums, but it's good enough to tell again in reference to this comment.



Almost 30 years ago now, I worked as a computer lab staffer at the local university in a variety of computer labs scattered around the campus. The main lab had hundreds of desktop computers in it and used an automated sign up system by the front desk to assign available computers when users left. It worked a lot like the waiting list at the DMV ... sign in and wait for your ID to pop up on the screen in the waiting area telling you where to go. Computers would get assigned to specific users waiting in line and the IDs would show up on the screen of each computer out in the lab.

Some people didn't like to "participate" in that system and would try to "jump the line" by just wandering out into the lab, find a computer with no one sitting in front of it, sit down and shove their disk into the drive ... thinking that would give them control over the computer or something ("non sequitur, your facts are uncoordinated").

So when the lab was busy and there was a waiting list for open computers, there would always be some student looking panicked coming to the lab staff desk saying that they couldn't get their disk (always a zip disk) out of the computer.

We staffers would just look at each other knowingly and silently acknowledge which one of us wanted to go out onto the floor to "solve" this problem.

I would open up a drawer that held my "usefully bent paper clip" tool that could be inserted into the pinhole of the zip drive to force it to manually eject a zip disk ... and dutifully followed the distressed student out onto the floor to find the computer in question. Invariably, I would arrive to find a screen blinking the ID of a different user than the owner of the zip disk "trapped" in the drive. Since the zip disks were the first to work on a software eject system for hardware, you needed to be logged into the computer to command the ejection from the desktop ... which wasn't available while the computer was locked and awaiting a different user to log into it in order to get to the desktop.

Seeing the situation (that I already knew would be the case before arriving), I would simply ask the person who fetched me if the ID blinking on the computer screen was their ID (it wasn't, it never was), proving that they hadn't paid ANY attention before plopping down and shoving their disk into the machine. I would then use my "usefully bent paper clip" tool in the pinhole of the zip drive to force the manual eject. I pulled the disk out of the drive before SLOWLY handing over the disk to the student while saying in my best "authoritative lecturer of idiots" voice:

"In computing, as in real life ... make SURE that you are WELCOME ... before inserting something."

Because the lab was busy whenever this happened, ALL of the computer stations nearby to this little drama would be occupied ... and I pitched my voice deliberately to carry ... which ensured that EVERYONE nearby heard what I said while handing over the zip disk to the student who thought they could "jump the line" and not wait to get a computer while the lab was busy. Invariably, I heard stifled laughs, guffaws and even the occasional giggle from guys and girls nearby, because these were college kids ... and the Life Lesson™ I was teaching obviously applied to more than just zip disks getting shoved into computers without so much as "by your leave" arrogance.



It took a while after the start of each semester, but the number of "zip disk trapped in computers" incidents definitely dropped off during the course of each semester. I'd like to think that a little gentle (but not entirely subtle) public shaming of people with more entitlement than sense helped to tamp down the "enthusiasm" that some students had for jumping the queue for the waiting list in that computer lab.

 

[Condottiere]

Voyeurism, possibly stalking.

 

[whartung]

Almost 30 years ago now, I worked as a computer lab staffer at the local university

This seems appropriate:

The Bastard Operator From Hell

 

[aramis]

Pondering a "what-if?" last night - the postulate being that jump space IMTU is so abnormal and disturbing to sentient beings that they must go into coldsleep/stasis/call-it-whatever during the transition and FTL travel in order to retain sanity. This then led to wondering the changes this would impose on an LBB-3 type small-ship setting, much less anything larger scale.

- Low berth/cold sleep would have to be more reliable, obviously. Perhaps make it a triple die roll, with all 1s indicating a critical failure.
- Ships would have an inherent vulnerability period following jump, while the crew was being revived and taking stations. Perhaps ships transit farther than the 100d limit, in order to minimize the increased risk from pirates and such?
- What does this do to aging, and other expectations of travel? Are "regular" travelers physically younger than their chronological age?
- This opens the need for a limited number of robots/synthetics to manage ship systems while the crew is down, as is a frequent movie plot point.
- Similarly, the scenario where a stowaway, berth failure, or other situation leaves someone exposed to the madness of jump space.
- What does this do to things such as "subsidized liners" or other space travel? If your only real "experience" on the ship is the transit to/from a jump point, what makes a high passage stand out over a middle passage and the like?

What other ways would this change the dynamic of things? Just a thought exercise.

On aging... IF one doesn't age in cryo (which is in fact core from MT on, and is in CT Bk5)
Merchants: Tramps, those taking the 7day+7day schedule (noting that it's actually 6 to 8 in jump, and thus 8 to 6 in system), they're going to age half rate.
If instead they're doing the 10 day cycle proposed by the late Hans Ranke, they're going to age one term per 3 terms taken.

Navy: Dirtsiders get no discounts. Ships on station are likely to be doing 2-4 weeks on station, and 17-27 days to/from station, and of that travel, it's 7/14/21 days in cryo, for best case, cryo for 42 of 68 days (around 7/12, safe enough to call it 1 aged per 2), worst case in the black, 14/42, for 1/3... but planetside is 1:1...

Marines probably keep similar to the Navy.

Scouts may be 1/3 if on mail, probably 1/2 otherwise.

The other effect is hinted at in ALIENS... and made explicit in several other visual works of SF, and in OS Card's Enderverse novels...one becomes no longer connected to the people you knew, as they're dead ... unless they're spacers.

 

[Vargr Breath]

On aging... IF one doesn't age in cryo (which is in fact core from MT on, and is in CT Bk5)
Merchants: Tramps, those taking the 7day+7day schedule (noting that it's actually 6 to 8 in jump, and thus 8 to 6 in system), they're going to age half rate.
If instead they're doing the 10 day cycle proposed by the late Hans Ranke, they're going to age one term per 3 terms taken.

Navy: Dirtsiders get no discounts. Ships on station are likely to be doing 2-4 weeks on station, and 17-27 days to/from station, and of that travel, it's 7/14/21 days in cryo, for best case, cryo for 42 of 68 days (around 7/12, safe enough to call it 1 aged per 2), worst case in the black, 14/42, for 1/3... but planetside is 1:1...

Marines probably keep similar to the Navy.

Scouts may be 1/3 if on mail, probably 1/2 otherwise.

The other effect is hinted at in ALIENS... and made explicit in several other visual works of SF, and in OS Card's Enderverse novels...one becomes no longer connected to the people you knew, as they're dead ... unless they're spacers.

Like "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman.

 

[TamsinP]

I think it's more that you don't age significantly whilst in low berths rather than not aging at all. For a single jump (or even for a few), the effect on aging isn't worth considering; for long term low-berth occupancy (eg. Frozen Watch) it might be worth calculating.

It all depends on what form the "stasis" takes. If it's actual cryo-preservation, I'd be more worried by the damaging effects of the chemicals used to prevent ice-crystal formation - having done cell culture work, what we used was normal growth medium with 10% dimethyl sulphoxide (DMSO) which isn't lethal to individual cells but could be lethal to tissues and organs. If you aren't permeating the bodies with a chemical, the ice crystals that form from rapid cooling would be even more lethal; if you cool the body slowly enough to prevent ice-crystal formation you'd almost certainly kill them through hypothermia.

But this is sci-fi and the game has low berths, so scientists not far beyond our current technology must have found some way around all of those issues.

 

[whartung]

Like "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman.

They were aging normally in FW, it was due to the relativistic speeds they were going that everyone else were aging faster than they were. It was not an artifact of cold sleep, as I recall.

 

[Condottiere]

It's more about cultural evolution, though considering the amount of time involved, change might be the more appropriate term.

As I understand the context in The Forever War, it's about how draftees in the Vietnam War didn't quite recognize American culture after they returned.

As regards science fiction cryogenics, it's usually understood that aging for all intents and purposes stops.

Otherwise:

 

[Nathan Brazil]

It's more about cultural evolution, though considering the amount of time involved, change might be the more appropriate term.

As I understand the context in The Forever War, it's about how draftees in the Vietnam War didn't quite recognize American culture after they returned.

As regards science fiction cryogenics, it's usually understood that aging for all intents and purposes stops.

Yes, that is exactly the primary idea in Haldeman's The Forever War . It was a statement on that veterans returning to a different US. In my previous post regarding the novel Lockstep, the point I was trying to make was exactly why any society would voluntarily go to cryofreeze when the act of travelling between the stars does not drive you insane or age you significantly as, a Traveller.

Another reason to freeze society is overpopulation. Phillip Jose' Farmer's Dayworld Trilogy has an that Earth suffered from overpopulation and resource depletion. To combat this, 1/7 of the population is active one day of the week and "stoned" (stasis?, cryo-?) the other 6 days. So Earth now can support a population of 56 billion (assuming we have 8 billion now). In this case, yes there are 7 somewhat different societies, but they have to share the same houses and cars and such so there is still cohesion and commonality of one greater society.

 

[aramis]

I think it's more that you don't age significantly whilst in low berths rather than not aging at all. For a single jump (or even for a few), the effect on aging isn't worth considering; for long term low-berth occupancy (eg. Frozen Watch) it might be worth calculating.

It all depends on what form the "stasis" takes. If it's actual cryo-preservation, I'd be more worried by the damaging effects of the chemicals used to prevent ice-crystal formation - having done cell culture work, what we used was normal growth medium with 10% dimethyl sulphoxide (DMSO) which isn't lethal to individual cells but could be lethal to tissues and organs. If you aren't permeating the bodies with a chemical, the ice crystals that form from rapid cooling would be even more lethal; if you cool the body slowly enough to prevent ice-crystal formation you'd almost certainly kill them through hypothermia.

But this is sci-fi and the game has low berths, so scientists not far beyond our current technology must have found some way around all of those issues.

There's been recent progress on that; one of the more credible tech youtubers covered it.
Here's a more credible source: https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ain-tissue-can-now-be-revived-without-damage/

 

[Commander Truestar]

Pondering a "what-if?" last night - the postulate being that jump space IMTU is so abnormal and disturbing to sentient beings that they must go into coldsleep/stasis/call-it-whatever during the transition and FTL travel in order to retain sanity. This then led to wondering the changes this would impose on an LBB-3 type small-ship setting, much less anything larger scale.

- Low berth/cold sleep would have to be more reliable, obviously. Perhaps make it a triple die roll, with all 1s indicating a critical failure.
- Ships would have an inherent vulnerability period following jump, while the crew was being revived and taking stations. Perhaps ships transit farther than the 100d limit, in order to minimize the increased risk from pirates and such?
- What does this do to aging, and other expectations of travel? Are "regular" travelers physically younger than their chronological age?
- This opens the need for a limited number of robots/synthetics to manage ship systems while the crew is down, as is a frequent movie plot point.
- Similarly, the scenario where a stowaway, berth failure, or other situation leaves someone exposed to the madness of jump space.
- What does this do to things such as "subsidized liners" or other space travel? If your only real "experience" on the ship is the transit to/from a jump point, what makes a high passage stand out over a middle passage and the like?

What other ways would this change the dynamic of things? Just a thought exercise.

This is essentially how Humans make interstellar jumps in CJ Cherryh's "Chanur series"
They take drugs just before the ship enters in automated jump operations and Tully (the human character) is made to experience jumps aboard the "Pride" without the drugs
I'll have to copy your comments and show them to her....She'll smile

 

[TamsinP]

This is essentially how Humans make interstellar jumps in CJ Cherryh's "Chanur series"
They take drugs just before the ship enters in automated jump operations and Tully (the human character) is made to experience jumps aboard the "Pride" without the drugs
I'll have to copy your comments and show them to her....She'll smile

I don't recall him making jumps aboard the Pride without the drugs, but he and Hilfy did suffer that whilst being held aboard a Kif ship.