Maker Technology and Earlier Versions

[Timerover51]

A couple of questions.

1. Maker Technology apparently appears with the Emperor Cleon, at Year Zero or so for the Imperium. Are all previous editions of Traveller, including the original Little Black Books, now required to reflect Maker Technology as standard, when no previous references have been made to it? I.E., is Maker Technology the new canon, and all editions have to conform to it?

2. Apparently, at the same time as Maker Technology was developed, the capability of converting a totality of the human personality and experiences into a memory wafer was developed. This would be somewhere during the reign of Cleon I. If this is the case, then why did not Cleon use this technology to make himself effectively immortal, and continue to rule the Imperium? Also, if this technology exists, why have all previous editions state have the use of anagathics for prolonging life? Or is it the case that anagathics are no longer part of canon?

 

[mike wightman]

1. No one has to use any rules they don't like, any individual referee can take whatever they want from the Traveller corpus (rules, setting material - 3I, Orbital, Clement Sector, Mindjammer) and use it in their games.
Canon is for authors writing for a particular setting.

I continue to use the original version of the Spinward Marches, Regina is still TL10 and I do not care one whit for what GT or MgT planet by planet descriptions of the Marches, it is my sandbox - that's not to say I will not use them if I like them
If I wanted to write an 1105 adventure set on Tenalphi I would have to consult GT and MgT to maintain consistency with canon.

MWM has defined his vision of the 3I - if you want to write material for the OTU 3I I would say you can not overwrite MWM's stuff. Looking through CT adventures and double adventures I can not find many instances of where a maker would make much of an impact anyway.

2.Wafer technology on the other hand could be a game changer, it depends on how pervasive it is. I think experimental wafer technology was probably second or third century 3I and requires the death of the person since the process is destructive, at least at the TL of the book.
As to why it isn't used for 'immortality' - it may be, there could be a secret vault in the Imperial palace with the wafers of most previous Emperors in storage. Some nobles and megacorporation bosses may do the same, the book doesn't say, but the technology to do it is certainly there.

At higher TLs you could grow clone bodies (unmodified or genetically engineered - your choice) o r manufacture a synthetic body with blank brains and download the wafer personality, you can run the personality wafer on a computer, using pseudoreality projectors as the interface, it may even be downloadable to a robot brain.

 

[Reban]

1. Maker Technology apparently appears with the Emperor Cleon, at Year Zero or so for the Imperium. Are all previous editions of Traveller, including the original Little Black Books, now required to reflect Maker Technology as standard, when no previous references have been made to it? I.E., is Maker Technology the new canon, and all editions have to conform to it?

It was always there, but like high tech robots they "are commonplace at the higher technological levels although they are effectively invisible…" T5.09 p.19

2. Apparently, at the same time as Maker Technology was developed, the capability of converting a totality of the human personality and experiences into a memory wafer was developed. This would be somewhere during the reign of Cleon I. If this is the case, then why did not Cleon use this technology to make himself effectively immortal, and continue to rule the Imperium? Also, if this technology exists, why have all previous editions state have the use of anagathics for prolonging life? Or is it the case that anagathics are no longer part of canon?

Maker Technology is not the same as Wafer Technology. I suggest you read the chapter entitled Brains and Personalities ref. T5 p.522

Effective Cloning and Wafer technology become standard at TL13 while experimental versions of both would be available at TL10. Personality recording is TL12. Anagathics become standard at TL15 so would only appear experimentally at TL12. Cleon I dies in the year 53 when the effective tech level is TL11.

Wafer tech would leave gaps in experience between the update and death where as anagathics preserve continuity of personality. The process of growing and implanting a recorded personality according to T5.09 p98 doesn't happen until the death of the original, leaving a dangerous interregnum for the Imperium each time the old Cleon I dies. If you prepare the Relict in advance you suffer the "who's in charge" conundrum.

Don't fall under the misapprehension that clones are exact copies of the original either, at least not unless you're allowing a great deal of invitro intervention.

There's also the legal (and philosophical) question of whether a clone is treated as the same person as the original, a separate person, or a relative with rights of inheritance. Combined with the rules and requirement of royal or noble succession it might be impossible for an Emperor to openly rule indefinitely by cloning.

Clones and thrones don't mix.

 

[Ulsyus]

A couple of questions.

2. Apparently, at the same time as Maker Technology was developed, the capability of converting a totality of the human personality and experiences into a memory wafer was developed. This would be somewhere during the reign of Cleon I. If this is the case, then why did not Cleon use this technology to make himself effectively immortal, and continue to rule the Imperium? Also, if this technology exists, why have all previous editions state have the use of anagathics for prolonging life? Or is it the case that anagathics are no longer part of canon?

Drawing from the T5 BBB p505, the TL of the 3I at Year 0 was 11. The TL listed for anagathics is 15, and anti-geriatrics is 12. Wafer technology comes in at TL13.

TL stages are described on p499. Using that, you could argue that early anti-geriatrics were available at TL11, prototype wafer tech was available at that time, but that experimental anagathics would have only been available at TL12 and not matured as a technology until TL15.

So short of uploading himself into a prototype wafer and having it inserted into a clone (standard at TL13, just past the prototype stage at TL11) or a robot, the best Cleon could have done at the time was use early anti-geriatrics to limit the effects of aging.

Anagathics have been mentioned as available since CT, but when was the first time they were listed as being available at a particular level?

It's a good question you asked, as it takes few pages flipped back and forth to get to an answer. Could Cleon have made himself immortal? Yes, but likely in a form that wouldn't have been acceptable to the moot, other nobles, and his strongest shareholders let alone his family.

Would Cleon becoming immortal have breached the moral codes which nobles complied with at the start of the 3I? I reckon, though I can't find the reference in T4 just at the moment.

Don't give up on questioning things, they're the best way for the rest of us to think about matters and try to come up with coherent answers that can withstand a bit of scrutiny :]

 

[Timerover51]

Drawing from the T5 BBB p505, the TL of the 3I at Year 0 was 11. The TL listed for anagathics is 15, and anti-geriatrics is 12. Wafer technology comes in at TL13.

TL stages are described on p499. Using that, you could argue that early anti-geriatrics were available at TL11, prototype wafer tech was available at that time, but that experimental anagathics would have only been available at TL12 and not matured as a technology until TL15.

So short of uploading himself into a prototype wafer and having it inserted into a clone (standard at TL13, just past the prototype stage at TL11) or a robot, the best Cleon could have done at the time was use early anti-geriatrics to limit the effects of aging.

Anagathics have been mentioned as available since CT, but when was the first time they were listed as being available at a particular level?

It's a good question you asked, as it takes few pages flipped back and forth to get to an answer. Could Cleon have made himself immortal? Yes, but likely in a form that wouldn't have been acceptable to the moot, other nobles, and his strongest shareholders let alone his family.

Would Cleon becoming immortal have breached the moral codes which nobles complied with at the start of the 3I? I reckon, though I can't find the reference in T4 just at the moment.

Don't give up on questioning things, they're the best way for the rest of us to think about matters and try to come up with coherent answers that can withstand a bit of scrutiny :]

These will be the last questions that I ever ask about the subject. If Classic has Maker technology as well, then I will no longer worry about Traveller, as it is not the game that I would be interested in playing.

My assumption is that Maker Technology will very rapidly become what is reported at the Ancient Base on Fulacin.

Food: Gold patches in roughly circular shape mark food dispensers and appear only in rooms R, V, W, and X. Touching a circular gold patch three times in rapid succession causes a wall section to open, revealing a holographic display of three types of food- generally a meat dish, a vegetable dish, and a beverage. Reaching into the display and grasping one of the choices causes a heavy vibration within the hologram and the choice materializes in the hand.

Whatever the players want till be immediately available, with a cost slightly above the cost of the raw materials. If nothing else, Maker Technology renders the entire concept of a cargo-carrying Free Trader totally meaningless.

 

[Ulsyus]

These will be the last questions that I ever ask about the subject. If Classic has Maker technology as well, then I will no longer worry about Traveller, as it is not the game that I would be interested in playing.

My assumption is that Maker Technology will very rapidly become what is reported at the Ancient Base on Fulacin.

Food: Gold patches in roughly circular shape mark food dispensers and appear only in rooms R, V, W, and X. Touching a circular gold patch three times in rapid succession causes a wall section to open, revealing a holographic display of three types of food- generally a meat dish, a vegetable dish, and a beverage. Reaching into the display and grasping one of the choices causes a heavy vibration within the hologram and the choice materializes in the hand.

Whatever the players want till be immediately available, with a cost slightly above the cost of the raw materials. If nothing else, Maker Technology renders the entire concept of a cargo-carrying Free Trader totally meaningless.

Those are really good points and questions, I reckon you should keep asking them. Don't forget, no-one's asking you to adopt everything wholesale, just take what you want in a way that fits into YTU.

I reckon you're correct about the maker tech being the best explanation of how that effect was achieved at the Ancient Base on Fulacin. But it's more than just maker tech that could be involved there. It sounds like there's teleportation and a very advanced maker being used together. Alternatively, it's a replicator. Either way, those fall into the Ultra-Tech band of TL19-21. That puts them way out of reach of normal characters in a Traveller game.

I'm not sure that maker technology would completely obviate the need to trade. Handmade goods become of value in advanced societies where manufactured items come cheaply and easily. Trade down the tech-chain would still be sought. Taking cargoes to a world where they're not readily available (the local Count has a series of Makers in a production facility, but preserves their use for his court and estate).

That's not to say they wouldn't become ubiquitous at some point. When a society reached the point of being post-scarcity is probably a good place to peg that.

But hey, if you want to restrict their availability to further up the TLs, just do that. If it preserves the feel and spirit of the games you love, go with it, it's YTU mate.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

is Maker Technology the new canon, and all editions have to conform to it?

Get out the old S-100 Wordstar and start doing page layout for a new printing of Classic.

the capability of converting a totality of the human personality and experiences into a memory wafer was developed. if this technology exists, why have all previous editions state have the use of anagathics for prolonging life? Or is it the case that anagathics are no longer part of canon?

Do your Traveller sessions normally use all rule sets and timelines together?

Anyway, personality wafers have nothing to do with life longevity. They're completely different rule sections in T5.

If Classic has Maker technology as well, then I will no longer worry about Traveller, as it is not the game that I would be interested in playing.

The guy gets 7 green dots next to his name, then says Traveller is not the game for him basically.

Whatever the players want till be immediately available, with a cost slightly above the cost of the raw materials. If nothing else, Maker Technology renders the entire concept of a cargo-carrying Free Trader totally meaningless.

A Traveller game session where all system world access and technologies and all timelines overlap and cross-pollinate each other... Someone is not enforcing any scope for their game.

Meanwhile there are players out there dying to add 2017's 3D-printing tech to the 57th century. It's a must-have in the far future, this archaic form of swag creation.

Traveller is not about simulating trade. It has always been about free traders trying to get rich by selling the most rarest bottled beverage to the elitist of collectors. And not get killed doing it. All while doing all the side quest things along the way. Maybe 4 office buildings and 1 warehouse and 2 seedy areas and 1 swamp visited across 5 worlds to find the end of the main quest. Not enough time to worry about wafer chips or non-aging characters messing up the plot.

 

[Reban]

From CT

The Kinunir has the following:

Machine Shop. Large metal-working machines are used here to manufacture
replacement fittings and parts for the drives. Large racks on the port bulkhead hold various lengths of steel plate and rod, while several small bins hold small machine parts.

Those large metal-working machines could be lathes, shapers and CNC machines, but they also fit the description of Makers.

Annic Nova has the following:

Metallurgical Shop. This small room contains facilities for detailed small
scale metal work, from one gram to ten kilograms, and can be used to produce such diverse items as jewelry, gun parts, and mechanical spares. Such a shop is quite usable by a person with mechanical-2 or better.

That also fits the idea of a Makershop.

All thats missing from both descriptions is the ability to work with materials other than metal. The idea of Makers wasn't known to the game designers in the '80s but they apparently did understand the utility of allowing players access to tools that could create jewelry, gun parts, and mechanical spares and replacements.

 

[Ulsyus]

Those large metal-working machines (*in the Kinunir*) could be lathes, shapers and CNC machines, but they also fit the description of Makers.

All thats missing from both descriptions is the ability to work with materials other than metal. The idea of Makers wasn't known to the game designers in the '80s but they apparently did understand the utility of allowing players access to tools that could create jewelry, gun parts, and mechanical spares and replacements.

There's no reason that a machine shop AND a Maker couldn't both be present. One to repair and modify exiting parts and pieces, and one to create new ones.

One reason I like the Maker tech is that its innards haven't been discussed. One of the risks in any sci fi setting, particularly hard ones, is that a technique or technology is going to be superceded at some point, or something new that wasn't thought of at the time comes along. Better to describe the effect our outcome than produce a stream of Trekian fantasy technobabble IMO.

 

[whartung]

One reason I like the Maker tech is that its innards haven't been discussed.

Better to describe the effect our outcome than produce a stream of Trekian fantasy technobabble IMO.

You don't find these two statements incompatible with each other?

I mean, I have no problem not understanding Gravitics, or how grav compensation actually works at the quantum level, how a grav belt works, etc. as long as its limitations are defined and we can understand the limits of use. "Why can't I strap a grav belt to a 50 gallon drum to make it easier to lift?" "What if I remove a grav plate from a ships floor, take in to a warehouse, and plug it in? Can I triple the power to it to make a prisoner weigh 3 times what they normally do?" etc.

As long as I know how to power, direct, and push the "jump" button, and what happens when the grid is broken, is not broken, what happens if I hit the jump button on a ship in a warehouse, I don't need to under stand the multidimensional physics behind it.

That's why it's important in hard-ish sci-fi games to know how things work, as folks can take those principals and apply them perhaps in use cases where they weren't designed.

If Makers "just make", then it's magic. Can they only make metal things? Plastic things? What about wood things? Both at the same time? Can I make a razor sharp metal scalpel? With a plastic handle? Is it sterile when it comes out?

Can I "make" gunpowder? Motor oil? Sour cream? Can I "make" a biscuit? One that I can eat? Sure it may take 2 hours, and nobody in their right mind would "make" a biscuit, but that's not the point. Nobody in their right mind would blend an iPhone, but we know what happens when you do, and of blenders capable of doing it. If it can do it to an iPhone, what about a data shard with secret plans on it?

Otherwise Makers become Deus Ex Machina. So, yea, it's a bit important to understand some of the fundamentals behind them.

 

[aramis]

Some combination of additive, subtractive, and manipulatory manufacturing. To do what's described requires all three.

 

[LiNeNoiSe]

Isn't Lucan "uploaded" in 1248? Is he a maker or a wafer? What's the difference?

 

[Reban]

There's no reason that a machine shop AND a Maker couldn't both be present. One to repair and modify exiting parts and pieces, and one to create new ones.

My point with those two examples was that they could represent both traditional Workshops and Makershops. There's a fine line between the two.

Makers are a way of packaging tools, techniques and plans together and automating the process.

Makers may always have existed in the OTU, just in the background without any spotlight on them. After all, I can't think of any detailed descriptions of exactly whats found in a workshop, lab or medical clinic.

That's why it's important in hard-ish sci-fi games to know how things work, as folks can take those principals and apply them perhaps in use cases where they weren't designed.

If Makers "just make", then it's magic. Can they only make metal things? Plastic things? What about wood things? Both at the same time? Can I make a razor sharp metal scalpel? With a plastic handle? Is it sterile when it comes out?

Otherwise Makers become Deus Ex Machina. So, yea, it's a bit important to understand some of the fundamentals behind them.

Some combination of additive, subtractive, and manipulatory manufacturing. To do what's described requires all three.

Makers, at least it seems to me, are not magic tech, they don't use grey goo nanotech and you can feed in rocks and get starships out. I can see examples of experimental Makers being tested by the military today, and I can see space agencies using the techniques underlying the Maker concept in real-world applications. So I use my imagination to play it in my Traveller game.

And because its a hard-ish sci-fi game I try to set limits on the Maker tech that don't break my suspension of disbelief.

At least thats what works for me. I'm no good at just willing reality out of existence.

 

[Ulsyus]

You don't find these two statements incompatible with each other?

Nope, I don't.

I get what you wrote, and I agree with you about the need to have some sort of details that provides players and referees, should they want or agree with them, some constraints, limitations, and opportunities with them. So I reckon that it's all good to come up with some guidelines that cover the amounts or sorts of materials that they require for the Making of different components or complete items, their sizes, their complexities, that sort of thing.

I also agree that it's a good idea to have broadly outlined the means they may have used, as has been mentioned in the couple of Maker threads that are being populated. In MTU at least I'm not going to belabour too much about how they spit out their products. Plus I'm just not a fan of technobabble, so I avoid it where I can. Describing the different effects of jump bubbles vs jump plates? No worries. Giving a summary of how grids work? Excellent. BBB p370 gives:

Jump Grid
A Hull equipped with Jump Grid has a mesh of jumpfield conductive wires just below its surface; the Jump Drive effect is channeled through these elements to create an efficient field which closely conforms to the shape of the hull.
Cost. The Jump Grid adds MCr1 per 100 tons of hull (=KCr10 per ton of hull).
Difficulties. Damaged jump grids are difficult to repair (Jump Plates are often bolted over gaps in grid coverage). Jump Grids cannot be effectively installed on Cluster and Braced Cluster Hulls.
Advantages. The Jump Grid has virtually no chance of misjump due to random nearby debris.

So there's enough info to run a game with, but not in excess that is likely to turn off the cynical engineers in my group who snort in derision at times at some descriptions of how things work.

 

[Ulsyus]

Makers may always have existed in the OTU, just in the background without any spotlight on them. After all, I can't think of any detailed descriptions of exactly whats found in a workshop, lab or medical clinic.

I agree. So many things could exist in the background of the setting that don't need to be described until necessary. Enablers to technology or societies or effects achieved. Too, trying to cover all tech developments from 1977 would have been a bit of a tall order, so I don't see any reason why our understanding of how things work, in our own TU's anyway, can't be as fuzzy as we need it to be until we decide otherwise.

 

[mike wightman]

TL8 the near future, fusion power and null grav modules
TL9 maneuver drive, acceleration compensation, artificial gravity, jump drive

That's the next two TLs, Traveller goes for six more and is set in the fifty seventh century.

The 3I is not the near future plus a few hundred years, it is as far removed from us as the Myceneans

Think about Jupiter Ascending for Imperial technology rather than Aliens...

 

[Ulsyus]

The 3I is not the near future plus a few hundred years, it is as far removed from us as the Myceneans

Think about Jupiter Ascending for Imperial technology rather than Aliens...

Yes, quite right. The imagery associated with Traveller was however established in the late 70's and early 80's. Also, while TL15+ has more to do with JA as you pointed out, there's an awful lot of systems out there that don't reach that high. How gravitic technology revolutionizes society is another matter though, one which impacts on the culture of masses depending on its availability.

While I agree with you about the high TLs, the lower ones would be an interesting study in just how alien they'd be to what we know today.