Originally posted by ChaserCaffey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Which brings us to the crew of a Far Trader conducting borderline illegal activities - what am I saying - outright illegal activities in order to make ends meet 
You know, I bet you could make a roleplaying game out of that. We could call it...Voyager? No... Wanderer? No...
My non-sarcastic Cr.02: It seems to have been pretty conclusively established that you need some kind of speculative trade to be working in order to keep a J-2 ship running, because freight and passengers aren't going to cut it. With that in mind, might a somewhat more liberal interpretation of the Broker skill be in order? Since it essentially confers upon the players the ability to buy low and sell high rather than pay the price everyone else says they pay, should it be taken to represent a certain amount of business acumen and general instinct for who the "right" people are to talk to? I particularly like the idea of skills like Streetwise, Carousing, and Bribery acting as enabling skills here.
If we look at it that way, things such as licensing become less of an obstacle. Furthermore, making such licensing regulations less onerous in the 3I than they are currently would seem like a pretty easy thing to wave the "IMTU" wand at. (And then watch the players' faces when they land on a high Law Level world that *does* have strict rules on who's allowed to broker cargo)
Of course, even if they're allowed to broker their own deals and get to be pretty good at it, most crews are going to come up short at some point. Which is, of course, when they decide to overlook the irregularities in the paperwork of the mysterious gentleman with the Solomani accent and a remarkable similarity to the guy who threw a custard pie in the Sector Duke's face last Birthday... </font>[/QUOTE]Then we are back to only Player Characters can make a J2+ Ship make its payments. I understand the adventure idea to make up for lost money occasionally. But when the adventure hook is always, this ship can't pay for itself so we will have to embark on some highly dangerous and legally questionable endeavor every new adventure, the players, if they have half a brain, will dump the ship and adventure without their own ship. If the only way to consistently make mortgage payments with a J2+ ship is to take horrible chances and engage in illegal activity then banks won't offer mortgages on J2+ ships. If banks don't offer mortgages on J2+ ships then virtually all systems that aren't on mains become backwaters because J2+ ships will be the exception not the rule. If a system is a backwater then it can't be a center for trade and commerce because virtually nobody goes there. Therefore either the maps are wrong or the economic system is wrong because the two can't economically coexist.
I understand the value of trade and speculation. The Trader feat. The fact that you can make Trade and spec work under very specific circumstances. However Trade and Spec should allow you to increase your profit margin or take a loss, with the probability being higher towards making a profit, but the ship should be economically sound in the first place.
I don't have LBB7 so I can't speak for it. However in LBB2 you were only allowed one roll to determine the nature of goods you could purchase. And the lot size. If the lot is too big to fit on your ship then you go without. If the lot is too small then you ship partially full. If the lot is too expensive then you are again stuck. If the lot is too cheap then you are also stuck. And if the lot is something that you should have special permits for, like armored vehicles, weapons or ammunition, then you are really stuck. (Like nobody is going to care if you are running guns.)
Lets give you an example. You are on Boughene (1904, Spinward Marches) and headed to EFATE (1705) your roll on the Trade and spec chart comes up 42, 43 or 55. Do you really think you will be allowed to take that load to EFATE? (With an active anti-imperial terrorist organization tying up Divisions of Imperial Troops?)
Making spec trade extremely dicey. (Pun intended.)
MT is confusing in its tables. Defining stuff you are shipping for someone else as freight and what you are purchasing as cargo, then apparently shifting between definitions. I am not sure if the chart that is repeated from LBB2 for available Cargo is for freight or cargo or both. Or how you determine the difference. Or which parts of the rolled result is cargo and which is freight. (What a mess!)
In T20 it is better defined and you actually get several lots to choose from in terms of speculation. It definitely makes more sense.
But I think if the PCs can, and for purposes of these charts should, use a broker or broker skill, for both buying and selling these spec goods, wouldn't NPCs do the same thing? And therefore wouldn't brokers tend to, on average, cancel each other out?
BTW goods under KCr4 are unlikely to return a profit, no matter how low you buy and how high you sell, greater than carrying cargo at KCr1 per ton.
It still looks like you have to be extremely lucky, even with all the advantages, especially with the guy you are buying from and/or the guy you are selling to using a broker, to make a serious profit. Remember on average your profit margin per ton of cargo hold has to be more than KCr1 per Jump drive number of your ship. (J2 ships, greater than KCr2, etc.) If it isn't then you can't make your expenses.
Since the chart goes from 30% to 180%. On average with only the PCs having access to a broker-3, then you are looking at buying at 80% and selling at 140%. Which is a nice 60% swing. With a Far Trader your base price of goods has to be KCr3.5 per ton with a full hold to make your starship payment. (Don't blow either roll.) Even with MCr1 seed capital to start, and that is definitely going to be rare for a PC, making this work is still chancy. Let the guy selling you the goods be a broker-2 and the guy at the other end buying be a broker-2 and you aren't going to make your starship payments 50% of the time. (Your profit margin just got slashed to well below the KCr150+ per jump you have to travel at in order to simply make your overhead.)
Now playing with a pair of high pop worlds with class A starports you have a shot. But that means you aren't travelling around anymore. You are pretty much staying put.
After looking at the T20 charts, perhaps I am reading them wrong, I still don't see it. Can someone show me how spec trade, included in the calculations, is going to consistently net me the, approximately, KCr350 per month required to make the Standard Far Trader's overhead? Lets even grant that only the players get to use the broker skill and can consistently use broker-3. (But we will make them pay the commission.) Using the standard 28 day month, 2 jumps per month, charge per jump, not per parsec. I am told it can be done. Anecdotal stories are not what I am looking for. Statistical evidence that shows it can actually work is what I am looking for. Anyone up for it? Oh and if it only works if you stick to two planets I am not interested. My PCs need to do some travelling about within the Sector. (So I can hook them with adventures.)
(I already know that in LBB2 it can't be done, the limit on one roll on the spec table won't allow enough profit margin, often enough, to make it work.)
