Manufacturing Anagathics?

[El Jefe]

I was wondering if anyone knew of any rules (house rules or otherwise) for creating anagathics? About the closest I could find would be to have a skill like T/Drug Manufacturing, which would entail a cost of Cr66,666 for raw materials, some DC to make progress on a dose, and some time period for the work to take place.

I'd suppose you'd also need the proper facilities (would a lab ship suffice to make a few doses per month?), a source for the raw materials (traditionally, some rare xenobiological substance from an unexplored planet), and some sort of recipe. Absent a recipe, maybe a roll on a skill like T/Pharmaceutical Design might create one.

Of course, there would be the necessary permits or the consequences of avoiding them (location, location, location).

Does anyone have anything more concrete than this?

 

[far-trader]

Welcome aboard El Jefe

Not off the top of my head but that sounds like a pretty good take on it. I think a lab ship would be ideal. The facilities are top notch and it let's you move around to different sources and avoid any "local" laws. About all I can think to add is the cost of the scientists. Sure a lone researcher could do it, but a fully staffed lab ship should have a better shot at it.

EDIT: Actually after a moments thought, there might be something in an old Challenge magazine article on Medicine in Traveller (for MegaTraveller), but I don't recall for sure and don't have it handy at the moment and I'll be away for a few days.

 

[Icosahedron]

Not my Forum, but I just saw the title and thought WTF?

Anagathics are the Holy Grail of biochemistry. I cannot see a lone person, or even a small group in a few hundred tons of ship creating them. Ever. Anagathics and Nanotech are Megacorp territory. You need GNP money to make em.

NIMTU!

I'll butt out again, now.

Spoiler: NB. the above is all good humoured mock-shock - in case it's not obvious.

 

[El Jefe]

Oh, it's all good.

My philosophy is that anything that is possible is possible for a PC...for a price.

For example, wanna overthrow the emperor? No problem. Get you diplomatic skills up high enough, convince a few hundred worlds to revolt, and there your are...you probably want to have someone in your party who is the equivalent of Sun Tsu and Von Clausewitz all rolled into one managing your military, but those are easy to find, right?

Or, just assassinate him. I'd expect there'd be a few dozen very high DC rolls to make to get past his security. And after that, there would be the problem of succession...I'd expect his heirs just wouldn't roll over and let you be the boss. Details, details.

So, if it's physically possible to make anagathics in the T20 universe, it's possible for a character or a group of characters or a group of characters supervising a large number of employees to make them. Now, what skills do they need? I'd expect that Medical/5 wouldn't quite do. What facilities do they need? I doubt a Cr500 chemistry set would suffice. How much labor is involved? For a single dose, the key question is if one person, given all the necessary skills, materials, and facilities, could make a dose in a month. I would expect the answer is yes, since we're talking about something you could hold in your hand. But making the first batch might take years of research. Consider, how long does it take to make a light bulb? A few minutes, given all the facilities. How long did it take Edison to make the first light bulb? Months. How long would it take you to make a light bulb from scratch? It would take you a few days to set up the machinery to make the first one, then you could just crank them out. I'd think it would be the same with anagathics, although the Cr200,000 price implies a large amount of tweaking with some very sophisticated equipment to get it just right.

Likewise, if you wanted to make dozens, let alone hundreds of doses a month, maybe a ship-sized laboratory wouldn't do. You'd need several dozen highly skilled workers, all highly paid professionals, to do the tweaking, and each one of them would need space to work. They probably couldn't all share the same mass spectrometer and still get their month's work done, so you'd have to provide them with several (and several centrifuges, and several gene sequencers, and several....you get the point).

But, to get back to my original question, given that anyone with Cr200,000 and the right contacts can score a dose (well, if they're in a place where anagathics are available), the drugs shouldn't be impossible to manufacture, just very difficult. Even at 1/3 the price for raw materials, bringing in Cr66,667 credits/character/month isn't exactly a trivial task, and I'd expect that spending enough time in the lab to make them wouldn't leave as much time for adventuring as most characters would like. And, if the big pharmaceutical companies get wind of the fact that someone is cutting into their boutique market for ultra-high priced drugs, they may get cranky and do something about it.

Just some of my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Icosahedron]

I agree with your 'anything is possible' philosophy. I'm CT not T20, but it's all Traveller, right?

My thoughts, though, are that I wouldn't want my players manufacturing Anagathics, so I'd place the chances just inside the border between 'infinitesimally improbable' and 'impossible'. It's not just GM bias, though, I think it's realistic. I doubt if player skills would be an issue - it would be down to the skills of the (huge) workforce. I think it would be easier and cheaper to buy an existing pharmacutical corporation than to set up a facility from scratch. A mere lab-ship just wouldn't cut it. You don't make Anagathics on a bench in the back room of a Chinese laundry IMTU. YMMV.

 

[atpollard]

Dangers of Anagathics:
What occurs to me is the enormous risk. Not of ‘getting caught’, but of getting it wrong.
We are talking reproducing TL15 state-of-the-art pharmaceuticals.

What is the ideal dose for your ‘Homemade/Designer’ Anagathics?
Too little and you suffer the negative effects of withdrawal.
Too much and people die.

The Traveller literature on Anagathics suggests that it is not ONE SUBSTANCE but rather, a cocktail of rare chemicals – like the modern experimental Aids treatments. So to the ‘Ideal Dose’ issue mentioned above, add the issue of identifying the correct MIX of ideal doses.



Cost of Anagathics:
A second thought that occurs to me is that if COST is less than MARKET PRICE, then this is a money machine for the PC. In effect, they retire to become an NPC or your campaign becomes one of ‘lifestyles of the super wealthy’ or ‘running a corporation’.

To use your light bulb analogy, either I can build my own light bulbs for $200 each (then the question becomes WHY?) or I can build light bulbs for a fraction of what Walmart charges for them (then MOVE OVER GE, THERE’S A NEW KID IN TOWN!). It seems unlikely that I can build a light bulb for exactly the market price of a light bulb – same for Anagathics.



Suggestions for an Anagathics Campaign:
If you are determined to create Anagathics, I would suggest that the startup equipment and personnel cost 1000 times the market cost of the product.
[Note, all rolls assume 2D6]

The first generation costs 16 times the market cost to produce, the patient survives on an 8+ and the drug works on a 12+. After studying the results of 10 doses (10^Gen = 10^1 = 10) you can now produce a Generation2 Anagathic.

The second generation costs 8 times the market cost to produce, the patient survives on an 6+ and the drug works on a 10+. After studying the results of 100 doses (10^Gen = 10^2 = 100) you can now produce a Generation3 Anagathic.

The third generation costs 4 times the market cost to produce, the patient survives on an 4+ and the drug works on a 8+. After studying the results of 1000 doses (10^Gen = 10^3 = 1000) you can now produce a Generation4 Anagathic.

The fourth generation costs 2 times the market cost to produce, the patient survives on an 2+ and the drug works on a 6+. After studying the results of 10,000 doses (10^Gen = 10^4 = 10,000) you can now produce a Generation5 Anagathic.

The fifth generation costs 1 times the market cost to produce, the patient automatically survives (roll= 0+) and the drug works on a 4+. After studying the results of 100,000 doses (10^Gen = 10^5 = 100,000) you can now produce a Generation6 Anagathic.

The sixth generation costs 1/2 times the market cost to produce, the patient automatically survives and the drug automatically works (congratulations, you are now competing directly with the megacorporations). After studying the results of 1,000,000 doses (10^Gen = 10^6 = 1,000,000) you can now produce a Generation7 Anagathic.

The seventh generation costs 1/4 times the market cost to produce, the patient automatically survives and the drug automatically works (you are now the technology leader and a target for a takeover by the megacorporations). After studying the results of 10,000,000 doses (10^Gen = 10^7 = 10,000,000) you can now produce a Generation8 Anagathic.

At this point, each new generation becomes a paperwork nightmare as you track all those doses. You are now part of a megacoporation and fighting a war against industrial espionage. Each new generation reduces the cost by half, lowering the retail cost and making the drug more generally available. You are now fighting a political and PR war to legalize the drugs.

 

[Icosahedron]

Assuming you and your business survive the repercussions from all those dead trial patients...

 

[atpollard]

Assuming you and your business survive the repercussions from all those dead trial patients...

I agree, but that's what Hiver/Bwat Lawyers and low-tech amber zones are for.

I was striving to balance "yes, it is possible for a PC to make it" with the logical conclusion of "if it is so easy, then why isn't there a lab on every world".



Just for general information, plugging the 200,000 credit market price of the drug into my hypothetical drug company, yields:

200 MCr initial investment in the lab.
+32 MCr R&D investment in Generation 1
+160 MCr R&D investment in Generation 2
+800 MCr R&D investment in Generation 3

Total R&D Investment to develop a safe Anagathic = 1.192 Billion Credits (Note that if you sell these drugs to the unsuspecting public, then you can recover 220 MCr in sales for a net loss of only 970 MCr).

Starting with Generation 4, the drugs will no longer kill the subjects (so they can reasonably be sold), however, they are still not profitable to produce.
4000 MCr to produce 10,000 doses of Generation 4 which will sell for 2000 Mcr (2000 MCr net loss).

20,000 MCr to produce 100,000 doses of Generation 5 which will sell for 20,000 Mcr (Break even point).

Starting with Generation 6, you are now ready to enter large scale production and the general market. The total investment to reach this point has been 3.192 Billion Credits (assuming that you did not sell the dangerous prototypes). This agrees with the earlier comment:

Anagathics are the Holy Grail of biochemistry. I cannot see a lone person, or even a small group in a few hundred tons of ship creating them. Ever. Anagathics and Nanotech are Megacorp territory. You need GNP money to make em.

 

[El Jefe]

Well, that's the basic problem with all RPG economics, isn't it?

In T20, anything that can be made can be made at a profit. Raw materials cost 33% of the finished product. The catch is that the PCs need the right skills and need to devote their time to the project.

For example, there are rules for constructing a Jump-6 drive. Sure, they go for CrMillions. But, the DC for constructing one is 70. How do you roll a 70 on a D20? Well, if you have a 20th level character, you can have a skill of 23, plus get lucky and roll a 20 on the die for...43. Now, skill synergy and the right feats can probably get that up into the 50s, but the rest of it needs to come from "helpers"...players and NPCs (hirelings, basically) who add to the DC. Also, it takes a year, and you have to roll that DC70 ten times in that year. Miss it by a little, and you waste roughly a month of time. Miss it by a bunch, and you ruin the drive and have to start over. So, you want to be sure you're hired enough helpers (all of whom have to have the right skills!) to ensure that you don't ruin the thing on a bad roll.

Sounds like a small factory with lots of overhead to me.

I don't think manufacturing (on a personal scale) anagathics is such a big deal, but I'd bet the DC would be very high even if the time and resources required isn't so large. That still means you need a character who sacrifices a lot of skill points to the project that could be used for other things (combat skills, piloting, gather info...), plus at least a few helpers who contribute to lowering the DC.

The answer is, that the specialized skills are so rare that few people are able to do this. And of those who can, most are already working for the big companies who are already in the business. And of those who aren't, the profit margin in terms of Cr/time spent isn't large enough to turn this into a get-rich quick scheme.