A Big & Small ship universe in the same OTU

[rancke]

Seems sensible to me to treat the big ships and the underlying economics of trade between Pop8+, TL9+ worlds as scenery, not game-able parts of the setting. It's unlikely the PCs will be running a megacorporation, so why provide rules for it? The underlying assumption of the Book 2 rules seems to me to be that the PCs are trying to slip through the cracks of the economy.

Which is precisely why a way to estimate ballpark figures for the economy whose cracks the PCs are trying to slip through could be useful for referees and other world-builders. It doesn't have to be nit-pickingly accurate, but it does have to ensure that the players don't go "Hang on, that just CAN'T be true!!"

In an RPG setting there are things that go without saying, there are things that require explanation, and there are things that just can't be right. And help to figure out which is which can be rather nice to have.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

salochin999; If you think of the world as a macrocosm of known space in Traveller, you can see that the major trade routes are connected by big bulk carriers transporting cars, oil, lumber, grain and what not via the huge tankers and container ships.

Those vessels arrive at major ports where the cargo is disseminated to lesser "freighters"; i.e. tractor trailer rigs (semis) and freight trains. Those vehicles then transport those goods to various retailers or other merchants who deal in trade of said commodity; gas stations, warehouses or retail chains, car dealers and what not.

I imagine that's what it's like in the Imperium. The huge colossal freighters haul the big important cargoes between worlds; from system A where stuff is fabricated or grown, to system B where the stuff is disseminated to stores of various sorts. But the chain probably doesn't stop there, as "Adventure Class" ships get hired like modern UPS, DHL, Fed Ex or even government post office to freight smaller amounts to lesser worlds another jump over.

*Off Topic, but loosely related*
The Book-5 non-combat civilian units (big ships) may be impractical for play in terms of running an adventure, but you can certainly include them in a gaming session. In one game session my players were seized by an Imperial Sylean BB, and with a contingent of marines on board their ship, they (their ship and everything else) rode in the belly of the beast as the armada jumped from one system to the next, trying to find out why my players were headed to that interdicted system. :smirk:

 

[salochin999]

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But the chain probably doesn't stop there, as "Adventure Class" ships get hired like modern UPS, DHL, Fed Ex or even government post office to freight smaller amounts to lesser worlds another jump over.

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Good analogy imo.

 

[salochin999]

Yes. And unless there's something to be free from, the spirit of freedom baked into the implied Classic Traveller setting has no place.

Yes, I like the idea of adding a ton of bureaucracy and hassle whenever the players are in one of the Coruscant systems just so they're really pleased whenever they escape back to Firefly space.

 

[salochin999]

I kinda like this too, though I'd generally have most human settled planets not lower than TL 7 and average about TL 9 to 10. Still can be low-pop, but high 100k to low 10 millions. The starport can easily range though I'd expect lots of C and D ports, a number of B and E ports and fewer X ports than A ports (those would be special cases).

Makes sense.

 

[salochin999]

I have never seen the BSU as interfering with a SSU player reality.

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Part of it is just personality type. Some people can ignore stuff they don't want but I get all OCD over thinking
- alpha systems could logically build either lots of ships or very big ships
- if systems are like earth nations then trade will be very dense
- naval density would likely follow trade density
and that led to a 3I with no firefly space inside and yet the Firefly feel implied in the early CT adventures is what I like.

So for me changing the trade concept fixes the problem - if 99.99% of the trade in a sub-sector is concentrated in a dozen systems in the sub-sector then 99.99% of the navy can be concentrated in those systems too.

But like I say it's only a problem if you have that way of thinking.

 

[salochin999]

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however, the belief that cost of shipping is high relative to the value of the goods is based on an arbitrary shipping cost intended for the Adventure Class Ships (small ships).

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Sure, I'm entirely working backwards from a desired end point - a plausible enough (for my brain) explanation for how the OTU can have lots of Firefly space *within* the 3I.

 

[salochin999]

Which is precisely why a way to estimate ballpark figures for the economy whose cracks the PCs are trying to slip through could be useful for referees and other world-builders. It doesn't have to be nit-pickingly accurate, but it does have to ensure that the players don't go "Hang on, that just CAN'T be true!!"

In an RPG setting there are things that go without saying, there are things that require explanation, and there are things that just can't be right. And help to figure out which is which can be rather nice to have.


Hans

And the clearer the background scenery is the less the GM needs to write down.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Naval units and groups are strategically placed in order to ensure maximum safety and impact from staging points against foreign powers. Protection of domestic shipping falls to them when local police of local fleet units can't cope with piracy or some emergency.

Otherwise their primary mission (other than anti-piracy) is deterring foreign incursions, and defending sovereignty. If say a Vargr corsair incursion occurs, then depending on the scale the Imperial Navy may or may not get called in.

Patrolling commerce raiding, unless it's a wartime situation, typically falls to local law enforcement. If a foreign power engages in commerce raiding, then the navy gets involved.

 

[samuelvss]

Part of it is just personality type. Some people can ignore stuff they don't want but I get all OCD over thinking
- alpha systems could logically build either lots of ships or very big ships
- if systems are like earth nations then trade will be very dense
- naval density would likely follow trade density
and that led to a 3I with no firefly space inside and yet the Firefly feel implied in the early CT adventures is what I like.

So for me changing the trade concept fixes the problem - if 99.99% of the trade in a sub-sector is concentrated in a dozen systems in the sub-sector then 99.99% of the navy can be concentrated in those systems too.

But like I say it's only a problem if you have that way of thinking.

Well here this all comports with the OTU, as I understand it. You can't make money with a small ship just hauling freight; on the high volume routes, the (evil!) megacorps have it all tied up. That's why it's a "Free Trader" not a "Free Freighter."

The navy (if we are including system and even planetary, who are more "coast guard") I agree follows the trade. The pirates avoid the navy. That is why you have on the original LBB2 starship encounter tables no pirates in A & B systems.

In the big systems, you have most of the cargos already spoken for, but since there are a Lot more cargos, there is always something to be bought in speculative trade. You have a (based on trade volume) disproportionately high chance of getting a good speculative cargo in a backwater world, because more of the trade is based on free traders wheeling and dealing, rather than a huge volume that is "shipped" in as cargo.

Opinions can differ (needless statement of the week!), but I buy it. Free Trader's gotta trade. He can trade on the "central planets," because there are always crumbs that fall from the master's table; often to increase the odds of making a big score on speculative trade ["..no bobbley-headed doll caper!], he needs to take a cargo from the core to the rim, where the pirates be. Again, LBB2 starship encounter table, the original spec trade rules, all this worked together, and LBB5 did not change it; indeed, it made it more believable, why MORE cargos weren't available on the High Pop worlds, like orders of magnitude more. The Free Trader is often better off on the high pop A/B starport worlds. But if the Free Trader is looking to play fast and loose with the law, ["..and where there ain't sensors, there's Feds..."], then these comfy planets are downright dangerous, because the "navy" follows the trade, even if ["...our best job was on a core planet."]

 

[SanDragon]

"..no wobbley-headed doll caper!"

"Hey! People love those!"

 

[salochin999]

Well here this all comports with the OTU, as I understand it.

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Yes, I wanted something that was consistent with OTU canon but also gave reasons why there could be lots of "wilderness" inside the 3I.

If you look at this map of the silk road

http://www.silkroutes.net/SilkRoadMaps/PictureMapRoutes.jpg

and imagine it representing the 3I with say Taxila as the capital, Rayy as Deneb, Antioch as Mora and Constantinople as Efate then you could picture the 3I as ribbons of civilization through space connecting the alpha systems while leaving lots of shadowy regions in the gaps which means you don't need an exterior frontier so much because you have a ton of frontier *inside* the 3I.

#

Again stressing I'm not saying this should be the way it is - just that it might be one solution for people who think the world stats imply a BSU but want the game to mostly take place in a SSU.

 

[Quint]

Yes, I wanted something that was consistent with OTU canon but also gave reasons why there could be lots of "wilderness" inside the 3I.

If you look at this map of the silk road

http://www.silkroutes.net/SilkRoadMaps/PictureMapRoutes.jpg

and imagine it representing the 3I with say Taxila as the capital, Rayy as Deneb, Antioch as Mora and Constantinople as Efate then you could picture the 3I as ribbons of civilization through space connecting the alpha systems while leaving lots of shadowy regions in the gaps which means you don't need an exterior frontier so much because you have a ton of frontier *inside* the 3I.

#

Again stressing I'm not saying this should be the way it is - just that it might be one solution for people who think the world stats imply a BSU but want the game to mostly take place in a SSU.

I've always preferred this idea - think that Mains almost exemplify it. The issue is that you have to decide what has kept the "non-Main" planets as being "wilderness" - many potential reasons, and it's really up to the Ref.

D.