• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Many contemporary versions - why?

So where is it (T4) now? Is Marc in the habit of scraping success and searching out that all illusive failure?:CoW:

T4 died, functionally, when the internet spread complaints from freelancers that they were being stiffed by Imperium Games.

When the bad press began, the money-man pulled the plug. (The money-man was Courtney Solomon, best known for the crappy D&D movies. I think technically, he simply called in the note on the seed money.... but the net effect was the same. No money to print anything.)

Moreover, it was competing against GT at the end, as well.
 
As I have heard many of them were among the best things published for Traveller (all versions), though I only bought a few, as I was disappointed with T4.

We had all of them. The main book was ho-hum in general, but did have the best restatement of CT psionics of any version of Traveller.

Book 2, Starships, was horrible, absolutely horrible. It didn't help that it couldn't disguise Fire, Fusion, and Steel as the underlying system, but that was the least of its problems.

Central Supply Catalog was fun, but essentially out of touch with the OTU and introduced lite rules into the game that really needed a larger and more consistent treatment elsewhere (computer networking and vehicle design, for examples). I found I intensely disliked the vehicle design rules -- I later learned that they were descended from Fire, Fusion, and Steel, and a bit after that I realized that THAT is what I intensely disliked.

Aliens Archive was anything but. Four aliens, none of them major, and tho some people liked them, I found them useless.

Milieu Zero was a good reference work. But it didn't help me run games.

First Survey was a joke.

Emperor's Arsenal was chock full of goodness, but seemed a bit too heroic for players to use.

Pocket Empires was meta-gaming at its most spreadsheety. Worthless for playing other than solo, and little more than intense, unrewarding number crunching when played. Yes, I did the math, and wrote JavaScript for it, and played it. But not for long. Wasted time.

Anomalies, like Aliens Archive, was so removed from any setting information that it was rather useless. Others may feel differently.

Psionic Institutes was too much, although I think it was one of the better T4 products.

Fire, Fusion, and Steel 2.... ah what can I say? I derive no joy from number crunching, and FFS2 is number crunching in spades. Completely irrelevant to Traveller in any way, shape, or form: its level of detail is so far beneath Traveller's level that it is less than worthless. What's worse, an error in the Fusion+ power table allowed heinous weapon overdesign. Not understanding or wanting to understand the physics behind designing everything from scratch just meant I could not trust FFS2.

Emperor's Vehicles was not as good as Emperor's Arsenal. Same problems apply.

Naval Architect's Manual. A hodge-podge of random graphical elements, and not even at the same scale. Almost completely useless.

I could go on, but now I'm depressed and tired.
 
As I have heard many of them were among the best things published for Traveller (all versions)

"Many" is too strong a word here. T4 had one book a month for just over a year, and it is possible to glean about two to three books worth of good material out of the whole run (after the main rule book, which stands alone reasonably well, task system bumpiness aside), including the two issues of JTAS they did.
 
CT and MT are there for Old School Travellers.

TNE and T4 are there for historical completeness. [snip]

GURPS:Traveller, while having a current license, is somewhat of a grognard item, as well.

And there is Traveller5, a reference work laying down the rulesets of a dozen smaller books (equivalent to LBB1 thru LBB8 and more), undergoing its erratastorm. [snip]

That leaves Mongoose Traveller, which is the current Traveller ruleset...[snip]

Liftoff is intended to be the "Starter Traveller" for Mongoose Traveller.

This is a pretty good summation, except you need a one-liner for T20.
 
Got one handy? What WAS T20, in one line? Classic Traveller, warmed over and ported to the D20 OGL?

D20 Characters, Bk5 ships, and Millieux 1000. And a playable big-ship combat system that didn't break automatically when used with small ships.
 
And for completeness: "Hero Traveller" ... shot leaving the maternity ward.

I think I may have known the "powers" behind Hero Traveller. Believe you me, it was a concept that should have hit the latex wall of a prophylactic. Knowing the man, an investigator and security actor, who talked to me about it several times over lunch, all I can say is good riddance.

I won't mention his name, but last I saw he still does art for another game company. He is not that good.

The concept of "Hero Traveller" unto itself, I think, is not a bad idea in and of itself. Someone who is more entrpreneurial than me, with more resources than me, will make it happen, and bundle the possibility of super-heroes in Traveller as an extension of science-fiction role playing. Spiderman, Ironman, Green-Lantern, all mimicked in a Traveller setting, would be interesting to a set of gamers (though not myself).

On the movie front; movies are designed to emotionally educate an audience on a story. It's why from a logical standpoint a lot of films seem really dumb, but are dramatically compelling because the characters "act on instinct" by thinking with their emotions.

So even a dumb film can be commercially successful, but still be dumb in the long run, and therefore not garner long term interest. Therefore, if you make a well shot film that has a lot of emotion that people identify with, it's therefore "a good film".

The problem comes in when you have mercenary producers who think you or your concept is not conducive to society. Maybe they detect some bigotry in you, or some kind of negative idea, and when that happens, you get the run around, and are eventually dumped.

The D&D films were created in the same vein as other fantasy films up to that time; "the teenage male (usually white, suburban, middle class) is spending too much time gaming, and needs to spend more time with the opposite sex". They're filled with lots of SFX, lots of action, rate low on fantasy and medieval themes like honor, and instead are filled with romantic intercession at the end.

The producer probably didn't think much of Traveller, even knowing its history, and seeing a possible lack of stability, pulled out of the project, letting the usual "Hollywood insidious, what have you done for me lately" cover his tracks.

You can be the biggest and best film maker ever, but the people backing your project don't like your personal views on thing-X, or think that you have an agenda, then you might as well be flipping burgers ... or working for Home Depot :frankie:

Hope this helps.
 
I'll also add that the various versions don't bother me. I didn't think much of T4, and thought T4 was fairly lackluster in a number of areas. It didn't look and feel like a sci-fi game I wanted to play, but rather a sci-fi game that had scored some good cover art for what looked like Xeroxed pages on the inside. I'm sorry if that hurts, but it did look and feel that way. And the vehicles and devices, as far as I was concerned, seemed to be borrowing heavily on previous concepts; i.e. "a Gauss submachinegun?"

As usual, I don't keep abreast with politics, local, domestic and abroad, and the same goes for entertainment and gaming. I don't care who did what to who, but it strikes me that someone had high hopes for Traveller in mainstream media.

I make no secret that it had been a dream of mine to bring some of my gaming experiences to the big or small screen. And that in order to do so I would work my way up from sweeping and sanding stages up to become a cinematographer and director. Those dreams are dashed, but I remain cautiously optimistic. I'm sorry that whoever tabled Traveller as a media/movie property didn't have enough savvy to understand that this is a niche of a niche market game.

My guess is that someone saw "Star Wars" like success for Traveller, but the truth is is that the big boys rely on different precepts to create successful films, and not the "coolness" factor that is allegedly built into the property.

The one thing that is a must in the film industry is that you need to pay people, and even though entertainment lawyers and agents will try to get every last dime they can for their client and themselves, you need to shoot straight and tell them what you can and cannot do. If you don't deliver, then you're fired.

It's pretty simple. And I miss the industryh for that alone, because it's a self weeding mechanism that, inspite of the fact that it attracts a lot of phonies, it weeds them out too. Gaffers, editors, electricians (best boys), grips, cameramen, and so forth, do their job and continue to get hired because they know their job, and people who know them know they can deliver the goods regardless of the cost.

You can't game, hedge, hope nor gamble with these people. They will see through it and you, and you will end up losing in the end. Put up the money, get your talent, shoot your project, and then worry about recouping your costs. If your film is good, then it has a chance of making back its negative cost.

Like I say, I don't know what happened, but if someone was renegging on a promise, then that someone lacked character. If costs weren't being met, and people weren't being paid, then that was the sign of a bad risk. Ergo no producer worth his salt would risk that, unless he had a major studio backing him on a known property or talent.

And I'm guessing that's what happened.

Anyway, enough soap box moments. Thanks for reading.
 
One word: YouTube.

Considering the number of MineCraft videos out there, the successful videos about psychopathic man-eating llamas and sadly abused unicorns, the curious success of Tobuscus, the rather large number of fan-made StarTrek movies - some quite well made - and the success of such things as Video Game High School, it strikes me that someone with a driving interest in producing Traveller fare could do so if they chose. Okay, some of us can't manage better than a Tobuscus cartoon quality - but he was quite successful with that, and it's a good start.
 
I don't think movies actually perform any accurate historical narrative. Can you actually name a movie that doesn't take absurd changes to history?

Regards

David

I would say that 'The Longest Day' by Cornelius Ryan stuck with the history. He, and several others, interviewed over a thousand people from all participants.

The one part I noticed right away, having read a number of books on WW2 by then, was the Pegasus Bridge action by the Ox and Bucks Commando. Most of it was accurate, but to 'be more dramatic' the film makers added the problem of removing explosives from under the bridge. I think there are several other items in it like that, but the is highly accurate otherwise.
 
One word: YouTube.

Considering the number of MineCraft videos out there, the successful videos about psychopathic man-eating llamas and sadly abused unicorns, the curious success of Tobuscus, the rather large number of fan-made StarTrek movies - some quite well made - and the success of such things as Video Game High School, it strikes me that someone with a driving interest in producing Traveller fare could do so if they chose. Okay, some of us can't manage better than a Tobuscus cartoon quality - but he was quite successful with that, and it's a good start.

What I've been TRYING to do for the last EIGHT YEARS is to get my income situated to a regular stream where I could afford to rent or buy equipment, and then hire crew and cast to shoot short snippets of whatever comes to mind.

Maybe now I can finally focus on producing something, develop a portfolio (finally), and hopefully shoot a fan Traveller vid. Who knows?
 
I don't think movies actually perform any accurate historical narrative. Can you actually name a movie that doesn't take absurd changes to history?

Regards

David

Well, I mean they act as emotional guideposts on how to behave and react to situations you may not be familiar with, or to which there is a large social stigma.

It's about behavior modification, and buffing sharp edges that exist between social groups. It's why nearly all films are socially progressive, and expand the horizons of social tolerance, and why you may see a film about social rifts and violence stemming from those rifts, but you'll never see a film taking one side over another; i.e. the days of "Birth of a Nation" are long over, and the controlling forces of social architecture make sure that no one creates those kinds of films again, no matter how talented the alleged film maker may be. And that's a good thing, I think.

So yeah, nearly all of the facts are wrong in every film from A to Z(ed). But if you come out of that film knowing and feeling that you ought to stand up to a bully picking on your kid brother or sister, or how racial injustice is just that, an injustice, or that a rich young man or young woman ought to be able to marry anyone they please, then the film has achieved its purpose.
 
What I've been TRYING to do for the last EIGHT YEARS is to get my income situated to a regular stream where I could afford to rent or buy equipment, and then hire crew and cast to shoot short snippets of whatever comes to mind. ...

Do you have kids? They've been my expensive little blessings the past couple decades.

... It's why nearly all films are socially progressive, and expand the horizons of social tolerance, and why you may see a film about social rifts and violence stemming from those rifts, but you'll never see a film taking one side over another; i.e. the days of "Birth of a Nation" are long over, and the controlling forces of social architecture make sure that no one creates those kinds of films again, no matter how talented the alleged film maker may be. ...

I would amend that to say no mainstream source creates them. There've been notably controversial films on the margins from time to time.
 
Do you have kids? They've been my expensive little blessings the past couple decades.



I would amend that to say no mainstream source creates them. There've been notably controversial films on the margins from time to time.
No kids.

I suppose. I think I heard on the radio the other day that India and Pakistan used eachother for action thrillers; i.e. the bad guy in Indian films was a Pakistani, and the bad guy in Pakistani films was Indian. But now there's more money to be made by making films for both audience as opposed to creating jingoistic fare for one side over the other.
 
Just as an addendum to both topics (I also like writing, and reading what people have to say about my idiocy :) ), I think one of the bottom lines about the remoteness of a Traveller movie is not only the history of a past film development, but the core audience doesn't have DnD numbers.

DnD has a history, a much larger core following, and taps into a wider audience that have been socially educated via common myths in Anglo-Saxon mythology and folklore; trolls, elves, brave warriors/knights and so forth. Even other ethnic groups get educated on European myths, and are therefore part of that audience potential for a film.

"Traveller", when first presented was marketed as a GURPS like system for sci-fi. But Marc Miller discovered that we the buyers wanted background material; i.e. hard fiction buildup. That actually pigeon holed Traveller to a niche, in spite of its long history.

You can drive across North America, across Europe, and you'll find people who have heard of swords, knights, armor, dwarves, dragons and so forth. And where you'll find even the same number or more who have heard of the concept of a "starship", you won't find many who know what a Type-S 100dT scout is, or any particulars of the OFFICIAL Traveller setting.

It's also difficult to market a game as a translation to a film not only because of the numbers, but because of the setting. You would have to come up with a compelling story, and then educate the audience on the Imperium. That's actually easy, but again the core audience, the players, aren't enough to justify investing in a film development.

The other problem is the fact that there are many versions, or rather iterations, of the game. Some good, some better than others, each with a list of flaws. If the kinks can be worked out, and the game garner a larger following, then maybe something can be formulated for visual media.

If we look at really sleek sci-fi RPGs, something like "Blue Planet" or "Jovian Chronicles", you'll note that those games are thriving, even though neither has much in the way of adventures. The rules are vetted, the presentation is sleek, but the audience has capped out, or plateaued. Traveller is still evolving, and newer people are coming, but veterans lose interest.

The other problem with a Traveller movie is that because it promises to to present various sci-fi venues, it is its own worst enemy in that there is no sub-genre to nail it down. Is it space opera? Sci-fi high adventure? The sci-fi horror genre?

So, it's numbers, a lack of greater success like its contemporaries, and a kind of "all over the place" feel to the whole game system in general, make the likelihood of pitching a "Traveller" movie to some producer rather unlikely.

Me, I can think of work arounds for all of those aspects and other challenges a Traveller film (or prospects of one) faces.

Traveller borrows heavily from law enforcement, psychiatry, and the model of wealthy do-gooders helping to keep social balance as many do today who travel the globe (ergo "Traveller"). "Star Trek" uses this model, but "Trek" is a known quantity, and "Traveller" is otherwise.

Those are the challenges. Hopefully T5 and Mongoose can even things out, and Traveller will most forward more cohesively, and then, and only then, schmucks like me can realize some dreams.

Thanks for reading.
 
So maybe, rather than make a 'Traveller' movie, you make a 'mainstream' movie that just happens to use the Traveller background.

It seems a little crazy when making a SF movie or TV series (that isn't Earth now or near future) inventing a background ... locations, history, how tech works, etc ... when there's an 'off the shelf' one ready to be used. (And, who knows, while the Traveller audience might be too small to support a movie, a Traveller-based 'mainstream' movie could draw in new players.)
 
So maybe, rather than make a 'Traveller' movie, you make a 'mainstream' movie that just happens to use the Traveller background.

It seems a little crazy when making a SF movie or TV series (that isn't Earth now or near future) inventing a background ... locations, history, how tech works, etc ... when there's an 'off the shelf' one ready to be used. (And, who knows, while the Traveller audience might be too small to support a movie, a Traveller-based 'mainstream' movie could draw in new players.)

Yes.

I love it when someone else writes exactly what I'm thinking, so I can be lazy and just agree. :D
 
Back
Top