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Mega-Corporations

First, I have always been interested in detailing the corporations - like the various leaders that run the organizations, the divisions and such.

Second, are there only 13 and can this be increased or discussed. Looking at the list of the 13, there seems to be a missing mega-corporation. I have been working on a particular corporation that goes by the simple name 'Green'. This corporation manages the agricultural aspect of the Imperium (IMTU) - from the fleets that ship the grain and products, to the equipment required to perform the agricultural business, to having a private military defense force the ensures that the food is not interfered with. In the current list only Sternmetal Horizons has indications of 'food synthesis' as an operation.

I would imagine that the Imperium would own considerable stock in the corporation but like the others allows it to operate as it needs.

I have pulled a few data points of worlds that are Ag or even Pa (considered by the corporation as prime to ramp up), that are Government type 1 (corporation owned) or 6 (captive). These worlds would be prime for a mega-corporation such as this one to control, produce and harvest the necessary food to ship across the expanses.

So is there any interest in detailing these giant organizations or considering other mega-corporations?
 
how 'bout a shell corp that owns several ostensibly independent mercenary units? not necessarily public ... "If you have a problem... if no one else can help... and if you can find them... maybe you can hire... The A-Team."
 
In addition to the Imperium-wide MegaCorporations, there would be Domain and Sector dominant Corporations, subsector and world cluster Corporations, as well as any planetary-limited Corporations.

Anything you want to detail is great!
 
The list of Megacorporations is only the biggest, best-known, Imperium-wide MegaCorps. More have been added from time to time through-out CT publications, as needed for stories or when one of the more famous MegaCorps wouldn't fit.

I would not make up a whole lot of new ones of the same scale as those listed (or else why would they not be on the list?), but there is plenty of room for second-tier corps that would still be MegaCorps in scope, holding many subsidiaries, many of whom do not know what the others are doing.

We also learn something of the workings of Tukera in The Traveller Adventure, for example that it has a subsidiary, Akerut, for shipping within the Spinward Marches (implying probably other subsidiaries for similar purposes in other sectors); it has its own security service, the Vemene; and its inter-division communications are poor enough that a high level exec can divert corporate assets and personnel for his own get-richer-quicker scheme.
 
The list of Megacorporations is only the biggest, best-known, Imperium-wide MegaCorps. More have been added from time to time through-out CT publications, as needed for stories or when one of the more famous MegaCorps wouldn't fit.

Oberlindes is a sectorwide, maybe domain wide. Not all the described canonical megacorps are imperium wide.
 
Is there a way to get the traveller map site to show the domains? I'm considering the domain wide aspect of a mega-corp.
 
I have playing with numbers and such... I have a few questions perhaps someone can help me with...

So I am trying to determine the profitability of a corporation that produces Ag rations. Using the numbers and charts in the World Tamer's Handbook as a basis I was attempting to determine how much an Ag world could produce for exportation.

I seem to be running into a road block. The basis for an Ag trade classification is that it has a population of 5-7. This seems fine until you bring the "labor" value into question which is always a tenth of the population. Which reduces the effective labor force that can be put into use to harvest and maintain an Ag world.

For instance - a world of size 8 has a planetary hex area of roughly 1,165,324 sq km. Say the planet has 70% water and only can use 65% of the available area (these are nice numbers for an Ag world)...

so lets say after all the calculations and formulas are performed each planetary hex has roughly 227,239 sq km of area for Agriculture. Okay if we go by the World Tamer's book it says I can put 227k of labors in that planetary hex to produce an output of about 8m rations each month, or enough to feed a population 6 world.

However even with 700000 population on the planet only 70000 can be a part of the labor force so this reduces the output down to about 4.5m rations, still enough to feed a pop 6 world.

My question is that a rural world (Ag classified) would be mostly farmers right? So what are the other 630000 people doing? I think this labor value could be much higher in this case. If 3 planetary hexes were producing rations than this world could support a pop 7 planet or subsector full of people.

Is there a flaw somewhere in these equations? Now the other question is that each planet has roughly 490 planetary hexes so this Ag classified world would produce far more than just 3 planetary hexes of food. Even if 30% is land and we don't factor in the 70% water based food production the total of 147 hexes of production would yield enough food to feed a pop 10 world or subsector...
 
=ShadowHawke;486684]My question is that a rural world (Ag classified) would be mostly farmers right?

Wrong. An Ag world is one whose exports are primarily agricultural and not one which contains nothing but farms. Think of it this way, the US is the largest agricultural producer on Earth. Is everyone in the US working on a farm? (Less than 2% of the US population is involved in farming or ranching.)

Don't fall into the It was raining on Mongo fallacy. Just because a world is rated Ag is doesn't mean it is nothing but farms.

So what are the other 630000 people doing?

All the same things people in farming communities who aren't farmers are doing. A big chunk are children and the elderly. The rest are providing goods and services which support the farmers and other inhabitants. They're shopkeepers, mechanics, school teachers, cops, doctors, bar keeps, librarians, and all the other hundreds if not thousands of non-farming occupations that a "farming" community needs.

Is there a flaw somewhere in these equations?

There's no flaw in the equations. The flaw rests in your beliefs about how the equations should be applied.

A well regarded Traveller author once remarked that Traveller is about adventure in the Far Future and not accounting in the far future. Similarly, Traveller, even books like WBH, is not about completely accurate macroeconomic modeling in the far future either.

You are expecting too much from a set of rules meant to provide background color for RPG sessions. The rules can only be pushed so far. You're building your house on a bed of sand.
 
I realize that - but the trade classifications have to mean more than just some set of letters.

A world classified as Pa or Ag is potentially a food resource provider. I know that it is not a world of farms but a world classified in such a way as to provide the means to feed the masses.

An industrial world (In) would be a world that any other world would turn to if they required industrial support or even I would wager the ability to produce starships (outside the starport category of course)...

And I know the formulas are there to be role playing but when I lay out a sector of worlds and I begin to determine how all these people are fed and where they derive their resources it becomes quite difficult when the formulas don't align.

For instance, the Mimiuudlik subsector in the Verge sector has 9.8 billion people total. This is a lot of people to feed on worlds which are poor in RU for one. There are four Ag worlds within the subsector which while not completely (farms) the picture I would imagine are the worlds that are exporting the needed food to all the other systems.

Even with the best numbers its not feasible... When I see the RU number which I am struggling to understand and most in this sector are Negative, I wonder if that represents the industrial resource capacity and not the agricultural resource capacity?

Should there not be a distinction - Industry RU, Agricultural RU and Raw Materials. A planet might have the raw materials but not the capacity to build them into an industry base - but I can see all these factors adding up.

Again, a world classified as Pa or Ag (even Ga) would be considered important for food production and attacking one of these planets may not disrupt your industry capacity but would seriously affect how much food your people are eating.

Consider a system that is classified as an As Ni Va -- they are dependent on so much more especially if they hit the 7, 8 or 9 population category. That is a lot of food to bring into such system 10,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 rations a month. Roughly 250,000 tons a month (~5200 containers) and that is just to provide "meager" level.

I like to dig into the details of my subsectors/sectors and wonder how and why the worlds arrived at where they are... its interesting to figure it out.

What really skews things is - what happens when a megacorporation with sufficient funds secures an Ag world and turns it into "farms" instead of labor workers the corp drops robots to the surface and uses unpaid workers to produce the crops and harvest what is there. Almost no cost winds up in the workers pocket, of course there are maintenance fees to manage the robots as well as workers and technical personnel, but seriously built a sufficiently complex system and one technical person could manage up to what pop 4 or 5 robots. The amount of food produced on the surface would be staggering as it is shipped out throughout the nearby worlds and subsectors.

This would be raw Ag of course and sent to places to make them refined which increases value even more.

Again such a world may have a negative RU reference but the products it ships out would be undeniably important and the corporation that produces them would have incredible wealth as well.
 
Another thought as I look through the Mimiuudlika subsector...

I know that the reference book has an importance chart, and even has Ag, Hi, Ri and In increase their importance by +1, but I would like to wager that those worlds would or should have some low end cap such that they can't be less than a 0 or 1. Ag worlds would be much to important of a world even an Ag Ga would be potentially a world that would be prized.

Again I'm not trying to think of them as a world of farms but a world that has the best potential to produce Agricultural products better than any other world. Or why bother classifying them, if all worlds could produce food equally there would be no need to say this is an Ag world. And they do tend to be quite rare among some subsectors.
 
I realize that - but the trade classifications have to mean more than just some set of letters.


Those trade classifications do mean something, they just don't mean as much as you'd like them do to. Remember, trade designations are used to strictly control which trade goods player characters may find available and not to strictly control what trade goods major corporations may be producing/purchasing on the same world.

Player level trade in Traveller is all about what sorts of crumbs the big boys have left on the table. Again, this isn't about macroeconomics.

Trade classifications can also be used in the same way you're using them, as a general guide as what is going on in a certain region of space. It's when you try to apply them too specifically, too rigidly, that the rules "fail". You can't push the rules past a certain point. They were created to quickly provide a background for a roleplaying setting and not to provide an accurate macroeconomic model.
 
use them as a starting point, and they can mean more than a game can contain.

Yup. Use them to get your creative juices flowing. Don't use them as a crutch and don't let them handcuff you.

They're an aid to thinking, not a replacement for thinking or a straightjacket constraining thinking.
 
Okay I get the idea, but RU's are not for player characters to be dealing with. They are for worlds, governments and megacorporations exactly as the rules indicate - yet I can't get them to work on the grand scale.

I really like my subsectors and sectors to make sense across the whole - I believe a bureaucratic imperial system would assign codes that distinguish the various worlds so that they do have potential value. Our own world while it can produce agricultural products would pale in comparison to a designated world that was classified as Ag.

Again I realize the code was for player characters but it is used at the galactic level as well.

I guess I can't seem to get my point across. Am I really the only one that plays at this high level, nobody else has worked out any mechanics that seem more logical. Even with breadcrumbs if a corp notices the PCs successfully trading between two worlds they know that there is some potential there as well..
 
I have playing with numbers and such... I have a few questions perhaps someone can help me with...

So I am trying to determine the profitability of a corporation that produces Ag rations. Using the numbers and charts in the World Tamer's Handbook as a basis I was attempting to determine how much an Ag world could produce for exportation.

I seem to be running into a road block. The basis for an Ag trade classification is that it has a population of 5-7. This seems fine until you bring the "labor" value into question which is always a tenth of the population. Which reduces the effective labor force that can be put into use to harvest and maintain an Ag world.

For instance - a world of size 8 has a planetary hex area of roughly 1,165,324 sq km. Say the planet has 70% water and only can use 65% of the available area (these are nice numbers for an Ag world)...

so lets say after all the calculations and formulas are performed each planetary hex has roughly 227,239 sq km of area for Agriculture. Okay if we go by the World Tamer's book it says I can put 227k of labors in that planetary hex to produce an output of about 8m rations each month, or enough to feed a population 6 world.

However even with 700000 population on the planet only 70000 can be a part of the labor force so this reduces the output down to about 4.5m rations, still enough to feed a pop 6 world.

My question is that a rural world (Ag classified) would be mostly farmers right? So what are the other 630000 people doing? I think this labor value could be much higher in this case. If 3 planetary hexes were producing rations than this world could support a pop 7 planet or subsector full of people.

Is there a flaw somewhere in these equations? Now the other question is that each planet has roughly 490 planetary hexes so this Ag classified world would produce far more than just 3 planetary hexes of food. Even if 30% is land and we don't factor in the 70% water based food production the total of 147 hexes of production would yield enough food to feed a pop 10 world or subsector...

In the late 1930s, it was possible to adequately feed 4 persons per acre, or about 10 persons per hectare of arable land. As I do not have the World Builder book, I have no idea where the authors came up with their formula. During World War 2, the US was pretty much feeding itself, and roughly an additional 20 to 30 million people. The US military were being fed at the rate of over 4000 calories per day, which was probably a bit excessive.

If you assume that an agricultural planet can produce a wide range of foods sufficient to feed about 1000 persons of human size per square kilometer of arable land, with about 10% of the populace involved in such product, you should be fine. Some experimental farms on Earth in tropical areas with the ability to raise crops all year have produced sufficient food to feed 30 persons per acre per year. That would be at Tech Level 6, and assumes a planet without year long growing seasons, except in limited areas.
 
...So I am trying to determine the profitability of a corporation that produces Ag rations. Using the numbers and charts in the World Tamer's Handbook as a basis I was attempting to determine how much an Ag world could produce for exportation.

I seem to be running into a road block. The basis for an Ag trade classification is that it has a population of 5-7. This seems fine until you bring the "labor" value into question which is always a tenth of the population. Which reduces the effective labor force that can be put into use to harvest and maintain an Ag world.

For instance - a world of size 8 has a planetary hex area of roughly 1,165,324 sq km. Say the planet has 70% water and only can use 65% of the available area (these are nice numbers for an Ag world)...

That is - ambitious. There's a whole heap of unknown variables that are going to affect your corporation's profitability. In your case, your company is a prime source of "rations", which presumably means the world is a good source of dense-calorie nutrition-rich foodstuffs - but that could be anything from mangoes to a genegineered variety of soybeans. It's likely to be many different things given the different climates available on an earthlike world.

You know the surface area, but that's only going to give you a vague idea of the agricultural output since that output will depend on the specific plants and climates. A tropical climate will tend to grow more than a temperate climate, but how much depends on what specific foods you grow, how quickly they achieve maturity, and this, and that, and the other. A world with significant axial tilt will have pronounced growing seasons, while a world with little tilt will have fairly uniform year-round temperatures but may have a much larger percentage of regions where agriculture is restricted by cold weather and poor conditions. And, you don't have any information about the climates and growing seasons of your world.

Similarly, you know the population, but you don't know what fraction of the population is engaged in agriculture, only that agriculture is the world's dominant sector. As others have pointed out, it might be a world of farmers - or it might be a world where a few very industrialized farmers use technology to produce a large quantity of foods while the rest of the population pursues other careers. If agriculture is a profitable enterprise then there are likely to be a lot of people in it, but there still need to be people building the machines the farmers use, and people building the homes those people live in, and doctors, and lawyers, and - you get the point. If agriculture is a more marginal enterprise, requiring a big investment and a lot of land to make the kind of farm that can support its owners, there may be proportionally few farmers, but their total output may still be high enough that agriculture is the world's dominant export.

"Agricultural" means an earthlike world with a good balance of oceans and land, a good atmosphere to support an agriculture-friendly ecology and a population small enough that the agricultural sector outproduces the industrial sector. Doesn't mean they don't have industry - though the ones with pop codes of 5 or 6 will on balance be importing to meet their industrial needs. Pop 8, 9 and A worlds with appropriate ecologies will also have agricultural sectors and may in fact produce more total tonnage than an agricultural world just by virtue of having more people doing it, even with their own people eating a larger percentage of their own production - but their ag output will be dwarfed by their industrial output.

My suggestion would be do not try to calculate whether your corporation is profitable. Run the numbers for the world, figure in a variation of about an order of magnitude with your numbers at the middle, then decide how profitable you want the corporation to be and choose the numbers that make it so. Then the invisible variables in your world can flow toward making whatever number you choose a reality.

...Don't fall into the It was raining on Mongo fallacy. ...

That's not one I've heard before. Ming the Merciless thing, or is it about a Trav world? What does it mean?

Those trade classifications do mean something, they just don't mean as much as you'd like them do to. Remember, trade designations are used to strictly control which trade goods player characters may find available and not to strictly control what trade goods major corporations may be producing/purchasing on the same world. ...

They tend to mean a good deal more than that. Striker uses them to modify the GNP of a world, implying that how rich or poor the locals are, on average, depends a lot on the trade classification. GURPS Far Trader does the same - the modifiers are a direct lift from Striker. They tend to paint a broad picture of the planetary economy.

Of course, planets are very big, complex things, as are economies generally, and a "broad picture" is by nature fuzzy and lacking in detail. Megacorps are famous for their resources and ingenuity. If one wants to have a megacorp getting rich growing tailored edible mushrooms in a specially constructed cavern biofacility on an otherwise nonagricultural world, then by jove there's a megacorp getting rich growing tailored mushrooms in a specially constructed cavern biofacility on an otherwise nonagricultural world. As you say, trade designations are a good general guide but should not handcuff your imagination.
 
I guess I can't seem to get my point across.


You've got your point across. We've just failed to get our point across.

You're not the first to play at this high level, not the first by decades. What you're failing to understand is that, as Carlobrand, myself and others have tried to explain, the rules do not support the level of play you're attempting.

You're going to have to make so many assumptions, make so many judgement calls, that your results are going to be useful for no one other than yourself. Someone else will have to make the same assumptions and calls you have made for your results to have meaning in their game. You're going to be making stuff up, stuff that will only be valid to you because only your decisions, assumptions, and knowledge are in play.

This is why the site has an In My Traveller Universe board.
 
That's not one I've heard before. Ming the Merciless thing, or is it about a Trav world? What does it mean?

The It's Raining on Mongo fallacy refers to someone taking one aspect of a planetary description and applying to the entire planet all the time. Thus, the statement about rain somewhere on Mongo at sometime is inflated and/or over applied until it is raining everywhere on Mongo all the time.

Shadowhawk took the Ag trade label and then over applied it until he actually seriously asked what the "other" 630000 people on his Ag world were doing with themselves. He'd taken a trade classification to its ultimate and illogical conclusion; i.e everyone on an Ag world must be busy picking persimmons because Ag means all agriculture all the time.

Yes, trade classifications in Strikerdo count for a little more. That game's economic model, along with the one found in TCS have been officially disallowed for application beyond the narrow applications within their specific game.

Trade classifications do count for a little more in GT:FT too. They are used with several other factors to paint a very broad picture of the relatively small part of a planetary economy dealing with interstellar trade. The economist who wrote GT:FT took care not over apply the trade classifications because he knew just what a slender straw he was balancing that book on.

Just like the hundreds of people over the last three decades who've used trade mechanisms, pay scales, retirement income, trade classifications, Striker, TCS, HG2, and god knows what else to "derive" everything from planetary to duchy to imperial budget, Shadowhawk is attempting too much with far too little. It has t worked since 1977 and it isn't going to work now.
 
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