Mercenary medals
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1. Space Dogs module.Originally posted by Bhoins:
On the other hand there are Vargr Mercenary units that would form and break up due to a change in the hierachy on a regular basis. (Possibly including in the middle of the ticket.) I believe mostly these units are classified as Corsairs as only someone truly desperate would attempt to hire a Vargr Mercenary Unit.
2. I suspect you will find that a Vargr mercenary unit would work very much like a wolf pack. It would be metastable for fairly lengthy periods of time.
Every once and a blue moon, there would be a dominance challenge or sorts. The usual result would be some (conceptually) nipped ears, a few people given a bit of a dressing down, and things would revert.
Sometimes, the old leader would have to step down or leave. But the number of members departing would be small. Wolf packs don't usually send their members packing.
So, as someone hiring vargr, you'd know that there is an off chance that the administration of the unit may change, a decent chance that over the longer term a few unit members might change relative rankings, and that maybe one or two might leave (now something tells me all merc forces suffer some lossiness). But by en large, they'd be sufficiently stable to stay functional as a unit, and quite individually inventive and ferocious if need be.
One in a very long while, an actual vargr unit would implode.
Also note that the smaller the unit, the less likely problems are. A commando team - good for stability. A platoon, probably okay. Up at company level, you might start to see some semi-regular shifts in who was in favour or out. Battalion level or higher and you might start to actually see subformations wanting to leave (sometimes).
So, the motto when hiring vargr is hire nothing much larger than a company and be flexible in your expectations as to who you deal with. Expect high individual initiative and ferocity, but expect that if you show yourself to be an easily taken advantage of employer, it will happen. Of course, as someone else points out, humans do this too.... Machiavelli had good advice on Mercs in the Prince and the Discourses - it still applies.
An interesting article, perhaps for a fanzine, would be analyzing the various races and how suitable they are for mercenaries, organizationally and in terms of how they fight - their strong points, their weak points, how they handle discipline, cohesiveness, etc.
BetterThanLife
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1. Space Dogs module.Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
On the other hand there are Vargr Mercenary units that would form and break up due to a change in the hierachy on a regular basis. (Possibly including in the middle of the ticket.) I believe mostly these units are classified as Corsairs as only someone truly desperate would attempt to hire a Vargr Mercenary Unit.
2. I suspect you will find that a Vargr mercenary unit would work very much like a wolf pack. It would be metastable for fairly lengthy periods of time.
Every once and a blue moon, there would be a dominance challenge or sorts. The usual result would be some (conceptually) nipped ears, a few people given a bit of a dressing down, and things would revert.
Sometimes, the old leader would have to step down or leave. But the number of members departing would be small. Wolf packs don't usually send their members packing.</font>[/QUOTE]But Vargr aren't wolves. And the material in AM3, and Vilani and Vargr(If Solomani and Aslan is Cats and Rats is Vilani and Vargr Wolves and Sheep?
While a Mercenary Unit is successful the leader's dominance might be relatively, as far as Vargr go, stable but if, or should I say when, he messes up, due to his mistake or even bad luck, someone in the group will look at that as an opportunity to step in. And others will decide that perhaps this wasn't such a good idea and form a sub group and leave to pursue another course of action. Changes in Charisma are immediate and in general unforgiving and can be tied to a Vargrs fortunes and misfortunes. (And I am not talking about money here.) Even if he doesn't mess up there may still be opportunity for other members of the Unit to either challange dominance or find something better to do. (And in the middile of a firefight that could pose some definite problems for the unit.
Chuck Anumia
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And the moral of this story
Don't send dogs to do a Man's job.
Don't send dogs to do a Man's job.
Bhoins, I'll take issue with your characterization. It is correct on the face of it, but we read the same words in the same supplements and see different things.
Nothing suggests that the Vargr are insane or anti-survival oriented. They are *unlikely* to decide to change loyalties in the middle of a firefight. Suicidal Vargr would be weeded out of the gene pool before they could reproduce, and that's what such a thing would usually amount to.
Yes, they are always looking to improve their position. Gee, most high-tech employees I know work just like that! And yet, despite the fact that some companies are constantly bleeding people, others keep them for long periods of time. Some are metastable for periods then unstable then metastable again. This continously looking to improve ones position and stature is natural in many humans. It may be amplified in Vargr, but I don't take it to be amplified to the point of suggesting schizophrenia or an inability to function as a group. Charisma is also a powerful binder - look at Nazi Germany. Charisma held a lot of people for a fairly sizable period. Now, things did come apart, in a big way, but it took time to happen.
All I'm saying is if the Vargr were unable to be cohesive enough to form groups and maintain them, they'd never be able to support a high tech interstellar society. They have to have at least managed the level of rational stability where major changes only happen when it isn't outright suicidal.
Maybe I just prefer *viable* aliens
Most contrived alien races or contrived human subcultures emphasize one trait or another for the dramatic purpose but they end up representing a culture that is less viable. I'm not saying all races have to behave like humans, but we all live in a universe that applies some of the same evolutionary lessons, and the ability to have at least metastable cooperative units seems pretty key to any civilization.
YMMV. IMTU. IANAL. IMO. ETC.
Nothing suggests that the Vargr are insane or anti-survival oriented. They are *unlikely* to decide to change loyalties in the middle of a firefight. Suicidal Vargr would be weeded out of the gene pool before they could reproduce, and that's what such a thing would usually amount to.
Yes, they are always looking to improve their position. Gee, most high-tech employees I know work just like that! And yet, despite the fact that some companies are constantly bleeding people, others keep them for long periods of time. Some are metastable for periods then unstable then metastable again. This continously looking to improve ones position and stature is natural in many humans. It may be amplified in Vargr, but I don't take it to be amplified to the point of suggesting schizophrenia or an inability to function as a group. Charisma is also a powerful binder - look at Nazi Germany. Charisma held a lot of people for a fairly sizable period. Now, things did come apart, in a big way, but it took time to happen.
All I'm saying is if the Vargr were unable to be cohesive enough to form groups and maintain them, they'd never be able to support a high tech interstellar society. They have to have at least managed the level of rational stability where major changes only happen when it isn't outright suicidal.
Maybe I just prefer *viable* aliens
Most contrived alien races or contrived human subcultures emphasize one trait or another for the dramatic purpose but they end up representing a culture that is less viable. I'm not saying all races have to behave like humans, but we all live in a universe that applies some of the same evolutionary lessons, and the ability to have at least metastable cooperative units seems pretty key to any civilization.
YMMV. IMTU. IANAL. IMO. ETC.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Kaladorn,
You may be right. It strikes me that a Vargr Mercenary unit, (Pack?) would be alot less stable. However they could probably be formed for a short ticket with no adverse effects. More like the 20th Century Mercs described earlier in this thread than the Swiss Guard for example.
However even disciplined units implode in the face of the enemy. Vargr seem to be more likely to do so. Not saying it would happen all the time but their morale, would definitely be more brittle.
You may be right. It strikes me that a Vargr Mercenary unit, (Pack?) would be alot less stable. However they could probably be formed for a short ticket with no adverse effects. More like the 20th Century Mercs described earlier in this thread than the Swiss Guard for example.
However even disciplined units implode in the face of the enemy. Vargr seem to be more likely to do so. Not saying it would happen all the time but their morale, would definitely be more brittle.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
Quote..."Control, control, you must learn control"...Yoda
The problem with that approach is that (as any student of history will tell you) large numbers of casualties get inflicted on disorganized or routing forces. Paradoxically and against all common sense, your odds of survival even in a losing battle are better if you stick in and fight. Coming apart at the seams leads to high casualty figures.
And frequently turning coat will make you enemies and it will not lead to you being considered reliable and being hired or rehired.
In both cases, this seems to be a survival disadvantage that could be profound. So I'm not sure how this behaviour is justified over the longer term. The Vargr aren't (IMO) immune to survival pressures - the more stable ones would tend to be rewarded. The more reliable ones would tend to prosper.
Now, this speaks somewhat to real world situations
and to a human dominated environment. It may be more like you suggest in the extents, where no lord is going to hold a lasting grudge against you because he'd do the same damn thing.
And yet, there are indications that Vargr have served the Imperium in many categories including Archduke Brzk. I'm assuming that Imperial Vargr must be the most stable (because they'd be kicked out of any military otherwise) and must have been selected-for-stability by years of interface and evolution as part of the human polities.
Perhaps 'native' Vargr in the extents, or those in corsairs and such, are more like you say. But Vargr serving the Imperium would not be. In fact, Vargr just surviving in a human dominated society that puts emphasis on reliability, etc, would have a huge incentive to adapt and overcome any natural instincts. Eventually, success in this would start to modify behaviour patterns.
<shrug> Or at least, that's how I see it. I like the idea of Vargr as workable aliens that one can play and one as you describe would never stay in a party with my players long - he'd end up facedown with a snub pistol round in the back of his barking-box.
And frequently turning coat will make you enemies and it will not lead to you being considered reliable and being hired or rehired.
In both cases, this seems to be a survival disadvantage that could be profound. So I'm not sure how this behaviour is justified over the longer term. The Vargr aren't (IMO) immune to survival pressures - the more stable ones would tend to be rewarded. The more reliable ones would tend to prosper.
Now, this speaks somewhat to real world situations
and to a human dominated environment. It may be more like you suggest in the extents, where no lord is going to hold a lasting grudge against you because he'd do the same damn thing.
And yet, there are indications that Vargr have served the Imperium in many categories including Archduke Brzk. I'm assuming that Imperial Vargr must be the most stable (because they'd be kicked out of any military otherwise) and must have been selected-for-stability by years of interface and evolution as part of the human polities.
Perhaps 'native' Vargr in the extents, or those in corsairs and such, are more like you say. But Vargr serving the Imperium would not be. In fact, Vargr just surviving in a human dominated society that puts emphasis on reliability, etc, would have a huge incentive to adapt and overcome any natural instincts. Eventually, success in this would start to modify behaviour patterns.
<shrug> Or at least, that's how I see it. I like the idea of Vargr as workable aliens that one can play and one as you describe would never stay in a party with my players long - he'd end up facedown with a snub pistol round in the back of his barking-box.
The portrayal of Vargr in canon contains interesting inconsistencies.
On the one hand, there are statements that assert that they are idiots who can't get their acts together to save their lives. On the other hand, there are canonical examples of large, long-lasting Vargr interstellar states (something the Vargr are supposedly incapable of creating) plus a canonical Vargr-Imperial war (the Julian War) that the Vargr won! And then there's Soegz and all that...
Frankly, the whole thing smells of human racism!
More seriously, this suggests that since canon is inconsistent, canon must contain subjective elements. In other words, some elements of the portrayal of Vargr in canon are opinion, rather than fact.
Frankly, I like this. It goes well with the
"wheels within wheels" aspect of Traveller.
For a long time I tended to view the Vargr as being a bit dull, especially compared to the really kewl Aslan. But then I took a good long look at the Vargr, and realised what rubbish the Aslan were.
(OK, maybe I need to take another look at the Aslan now...)
BetterThanLife
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Actually both portrayals of Vargr are probably accurate. At least for a portion of the population. With reality somewhere in the middle.
The point about subjectivity of portrayal is important. We read some sort of a description, but each describer views things differently. And we have, as alan points out, canonical facts about their interstellar Empire. So, perhaps the truth is there are some Vargr that are all over the map, but they aren't the ones that get very far (like forming an interstellar empire).
Each alien race in Traveller can probably spawn as many varied interpretations as humans. Think how varied we are. Why should Aslan, Vargr, Hivers, or even the depressingly insane Ithklur be any different? I mean, they might have a tad narrower range of variability, but for so many beings, they will probably have quite a variety. Even the darn mindbender Zhos would have a fair bit of variety, even given their societal normative drive.
To me, I like to make my Aliens not just guys in funny suits - by that I mean that I like them to have some sort of depth and logic behind them that might, in a way, be workable, or seem so at a glance anyway.
It makes for an interesting discussion, to be sure.
Each alien race in Traveller can probably spawn as many varied interpretations as humans. Think how varied we are. Why should Aslan, Vargr, Hivers, or even the depressingly insane Ithklur be any different? I mean, they might have a tad narrower range of variability, but for so many beings, they will probably have quite a variety. Even the darn mindbender Zhos would have a fair bit of variety, even given their societal normative drive.
To me, I like to make my Aliens not just guys in funny suits - by that I mean that I like them to have some sort of depth and logic behind them that might, in a way, be workable, or seem so at a glance anyway.
It makes for an interesting discussion, to be sure.
Chuck Anumia
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This is what makes it hard for "us" to properly roleplay aliens without making them seem like humans in funny suits.
The Cannon material is there to give us a valid starting point. We are then responsable to take the basic description of an alien culture and play it out through our characters in the way we imagine they would act.
The best part is we can act through our charactors in whatever way we feel is appropriate to the situation and it is acceptable because these aliens may act differently than others of the same spieceis.
BetterThanLife
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How does the K'Kree stack up in your view of aliens? Though I definitely believe that they would have a problem being Mercenaries.
How does the K'Kree stack up in your view of aliens? Though I definitely believe that they would have a problem being Mercenaries. </font>[/QUOTE]The problem with the K"Kree being effective Mercenaries is how you transport them were
you need them...the cost would be prohibitive.
K'kree are interesting. They would probably consider aiding 'vegetarians' against meat eaters or omnivores. They would definitely be intractable foes. But at the same time, they would in fact be very logistically intensive and have real limits on how they can fight. They don't strike me as very adaptable. And in a modern sense, they're darn big targets.
But I'm guessing that they must have their own strengths in order to make them viable competitors. I think that intractability might be part of it, and maybe a greater degree of social unity than other races. These might help to compensate fir their tactical shorcomings.
But I'm guessing that they must have their own strengths in order to make them viable competitors. I think that intractability might be part of it, and maybe a greater degree of social unity than other races. These might help to compensate fir their tactical shorcomings.
BetterThanLife
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I don't believe the stated K'kree social structure would allow K'kree Mercenaries. But I also state, as far as realism goes, that the K'kree are not an altogether believeable starfaring race. (But that is a topic for another thread.
)
Oh, sorry, I didn't address that - yes, I could see them helping some vegitarians, but they don't strike me as the sort to be 'mercenary' by en large. I mean, they obviously have wealthy herds or less wealthy ones, but they don't seem to be happy dealing with meat-eaters just for $$$.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
And they wouldn't want medals even if they worked out as Mercenaries.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
I was reading an article in the TAS Journal #21.
It states that "Vagr corsair groups come in all sizes. There are raiders who get together to crew a single ship, go out raiding, and then disperse when the voyage is done. There are also long standing organizations who rival small Vargr intersteller governments in scope, power and Naval strength."
The numbers they included were of one organization that had over 20 ships of verying sizes from 100 to 1,000 tons. A couple of them were military vessels. They are operating on the Imperium boarder somewhere.
Could they be considered Mercenaries?
It states that "Vagr corsair groups come in all sizes. There are raiders who get together to crew a single ship, go out raiding, and then disperse when the voyage is done. There are also long standing organizations who rival small Vargr intersteller governments in scope, power and Naval strength."
The numbers they included were of one organization that had over 20 ships of verying sizes from 100 to 1,000 tons. A couple of them were military vessels. They are operating on the Imperium boarder somewhere.
Could they be considered Mercenaries?