MgT 1e High Guard Rank Issues and Fixes

[Poppyseed45]

Looking at 1e HG, we see that the rank systems are expanded for both enlisted and officers (9 ranks for Enlisted and 10 for Officers). If we take the US Navy as an example, it seems that reaching the top ranks for either side takes WAY too long (like, getting to an 03 is more or less a formality; just don't do anything weird). Also, this doesn't really map well to the system presented in the Corebook, where there are six rank levels.

So, what I'd do for my game (I've a Navy Campaign a la Honor Harrington-verse in mind) is say that characters enlisted in the Navy make E2 no matter what, and a promotion rolls nets them E3. For officers, the move from 01 to 02 is a formality, and a promotion roll at the end of the second term is to 03. After that, rules as usual. My logic being, the first rank in each rank scale is the "training and under supervision" rank; after you've served a year, usually, you make the next rank "we trust you not to muck things up too much" after that. If you do well, a further promotion can happen.

My question is, does this obviously break anything? And does it make logical sense and game sense?

Assuming a normal, smooth progression, a rating under this system hits E4 after 2 terms. Seems long compared to the real world US Navy, though I guess we can yell "In Spaaaccceeeeeee...." and fudge around that. The space polity we are envisioning can do as it likes, after all.

Once we get to E7 and 5 terms later, this seems more like it fits. For officers, though, this means 07 at that point, and it really ought to be 06. So...maybe keep officers the same, or give a rule that an officer moves to 02 at the end of the second term, promotion roll or not? After that, the officer stays there unless they roll well? Or what? Under that system, a "good" officer will hit 06 at the end of the 5th term. A "not as good but got better later" officer hits 05 at that point. A "very not good" officer flunks out or, if he/she manages to hang around, does so as a Sublieutenant or Lieutenant for their long, miserable career.

Thoughts folks? I want to capture some of the rank/responsibility vibe in much military science fiction, and the fact that one doesn't generally "Kirk" their way to commanding a starship (a la the first NeuTrek movie).

 

[mike wightman]

If you want to model promotion in 'la Honor Harrington-verse' I would advise you ignore current USN practices and do some research on how promotion worked in the RN during the age of sail.

 

[LiNeNoiSe]

If you want to model promotion in 'la Honor Harrington-verse' I would advise you ignore current USN practices and do some research on how promotion worked in the RN during the age of sail.

Do you really want to model Interest?

 

[Condottiere]

It's patronage, either friends, family or some promising prole.

 

[Poppyseed45]

If you want to model promotion in 'la Honor Harrington-verse' I would advise you ignore current USN practices and do some research on how promotion worked in the RN during the age of sail.

That's not entirely the system. While patronage and the like is in the Honorverse, there seems to also be a recognition of professionalism and ability. For example, there are War Colleges and what not (the titular character mentions it), and there do seem to be SOME hints that people can make, say, Captain without patronage (as a few characters in the books seem to do) though making as the books call it Captain of the List DOES require patronage. Which I think fits Traveller's expectations rules-wise in the Navy nicely.

Otherwise, there does seem to be the concepts of "time in grade" and other such concepts, so, you can't just rocket up the ladder without at least a ghost of a nod towards at least marking time. I don't know the practices of the Royal Navy (save through books like Master and Commander) but I think the Honorverse nods toward modern, real world navies. Sort of (I mean, there are Lieutenant Commanders and such not, things we don't find in the 18th century navy).

 

[Condottiere]

Unless you seriously screw the pooch, once you make post captain, you automatically become an admiral through sheer longevity and seniority.

If navies don't expand and/or experience attrition, they can become top heavy, especially if for all intents and purposes, you can live indefinitely.

In the Honorverse, that would require quite a lot of time in grade to keep it balanced, minus some Horatio Nelsons.

 

[whulorigan]

Looking at 1e HG, we see that the rank systems are expanded for both enlisted and officers (9 ranks for Enlisted and 10 for Officers). If we take the US Navy as an example, it seems that reaching the top ranks for either side takes WAY too long (like, getting to an 03 is more or less a formality; just don't do anything weird). Also, this doesn't really map well to the system presented in the Corebook, where there are six rank levels.

So, what I'd do for my game (I've a Navy Campaign a la Honor Harrington-verse in mind) is say that characters enlisted in the Navy make E2 no matter what, and a promotion rolls nets them E3. For officers, the move from 01 to 02 is a formality, and a promotion roll at the end of the second term is to 03. After that, rules as usual. My logic being, the first rank in each rank scale is the "training and under supervision" rank; after you've served a year, usually, you make the next rank "we trust you not to muck things up too much" after that. If you do well, a further promotion can happen.

My question is, does this obviously break anything? And does it make logical sense and game sense?

Assuming a normal, smooth progression, a rating under this system hits E4 after 2 terms. Seems long compared to the real world US Navy, though I guess we can yell "In Spaaaccceeeeeee...." and fudge around that. The space polity we are envisioning can do as it likes, after all.

Once we get to E7 and 5 terms later, this seems more like it fits. For officers, though, this means 07 at that point, and it really ought to be 06. So...maybe keep officers the same, or give a rule that an officer moves to 02 at the end of the second term, promotion roll or not? After that, the officer stays there unless they roll well? Or what? Under that system, a "good" officer will hit 06 at the end of the 5th term. A "not as good but got better later" officer hits 05 at that point. A "very not good" officer flunks out or, if he/she manages to hang around, does so as a Sublieutenant or Lieutenant for their long, miserable career. . . .

As a suggestion, why not alter the promotion roll to something that requires one to roll above the current rank, instead of a set target number? That way, low ranks get easy (almost guaranteed) promotions, and higher ranks have a more difficult time getting a promotion (reflecting the limited number of promotional slots available in an organization).

In fact, you could decide on a roll that makes it impossible to roll above a given rank without having some type of promotion modifier (i.e. SOC as well as decorations or life events would give promotion bonuses). In other words, you need to know someone or be within the right social circle, or demonstrate clear ability to get "noticed".

The "automatic" promotion for the lowest ranks that you mentioned above also seems like a good addition.

 

[aramis]

Noting that MGT1 introduces something alien to other editions of Traveller, namely, an "up or out" policy.

A much more lax one than current US, but still, an up or out - as your continuation and promotion rolls are the same 2d6 throw.

It's a bad model for the OTU, which seems much more Age of Sail UK. Noting that many men retired as privates or able seamen with 20+ years service...
(Note that, for enlisted men, the most common retirement seems to be a tie between Corporal and Serjeant, and for officers, Captain and Major)...

Now, the Army, the up-or-out doesn't kick in until term 5 (Cavalry - to stay in for term 5, you need a 5+ advancement roll in term 4, which results in a promotion) - so cavalry cannot retire below LCpl or Lt. Same issue for marine support (p 21) and Navy flight (p 25). No more 7 term ensigns.

 

[Poppyseed45]

Noting that MGT1 introduces something alien to other editions of Traveller, namely, an "up or out" policy.

A much more lax one than current US, but still, an up or out - as your continuation and promotion rolls are the same 2d6 throw.

It's a bad model for the OTU, which seems much more Age of Sail UK. Noting that many men retired as privates or able seamen with 20+ years service...
(Note that, for enlisted men, the most common retirement seems to be a tie between Corporal and Serjeant, and for officers, Captain and Major)...

Now, the Army, the up-or-out doesn't kick in until term 5 (Cavalry - to stay in for term 5, you need a 5+ advancement roll in term 4, which results in a promotion) - so cavalry cannot retire below LCpl or Lt. Same issue for marine support (p 21) and Navy flight (p 25). No more 7 term ensigns.

Now THAT I forgot about, the up or out "policy" in MgT 1e! Have to re-read and do the math but, yeah, yes, this might be the thing that balances things out. Ahem. No one would make it far enough to retire without some promotions, since the dice would in general force them out. Sort of the back-end way of doing what I was thinking (since the campaign is "in the Navy." But still, interesting.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, interstellar polity navies should be elite organizations, in terms of personnel, considering the ratio between the recruitment pool and available berths.

 

[aramis]

Let's see..
Taking the TIG from statutory minimum TIG from 10 USC §619...

	USN	HG	Req TIG	Cum Min TIS	“TermsMin”	R#	Terms Min	R#	Terms Min
O1	Ens	Ens	1.5	1.5	1	R1	1	R1	1
O2	LtJG	LtJG	2	3.5	1		1	R2	2
O3	Lt	Lt	3	6.5	2	R2	1	R3	3
O4	LCdr	LCdr	3	9.5	3	R3	2		4
O5	Cdr	Cdr	3	12.5	4	R4	3	R4	5
O6	Capt	Capt	1	13.5	4	R5	4	R5	6
O7	RALH	Comm	1	14.5	4	R6	5	R6	7
O8	RAdm	RAdm	0	14.5	4
O9	VAdm	VAdm	0	14.5	4
O10	Adm	Adm	0	14.5	4
O11		FAdm	0	14.5	4

[tc=2]titles[/tc][tc=3]US Navy 2017[/tc][tc=2]CT Bk1[/tc][tc=2]MGT[/tc]

Nominally, the minimums are harsher in MGT, but only because the lack of ability to commission and promote in the same term.

MGT1 CGen has several "broken" features... up-or-out (present in current USN, but not by statute; US army likewise), too long in the lower officer ranks, compression in the top ranks.

CT Bk1 compresses the top ranks in the same way.
CT Bk4-5 lengthens mid-career ranks (O3-O4-O5) by 1 year over US... 4 years rather than 3, due to the terms instead of years calulation, and 1 promotion per term.

Note also, US real world, promotion to admiral is seldom 1 year after captain... and often is to a higher grade, rather than actually promoted, as admiralty ranks are in fact mostly positional - all officer promotions past O7 are appointment by the president under delegation from congress (10 USC §525)
Usually, tho', it's 3-5 years as a captain (O6) before admiral or retirement; admirals usually serve 2-6 years per star... each new star being a new position higher up the chain.

Looking at the RN, instead... Ensign: non-extant
SubLt 12 months (1 year)
Lieutenant 30 months (2.5 years)
So, one can make LtCdr in term 1 in the current Royal Navy... and according to the Royal Navy, it's almost automatic to there: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/brochures/graduates
After that, it gets wonky. Average career seniority at promotion to grade, however, is...

Admiral TIS:32
Commodore TIS: 29
Captain TIS: 25
Cdr TIS: 19
Lt Cdr TIS: 11
Source:
What Do They Know: Freedom of Information Request​

 

[Condottiere]

The Duke of York retired because he was informed that he wouldn't get a promotion to Captain.

One reason navies get top heavy, is to incentivize retention with a higher pay grade and status.

 

[aramis]

The Duke of York retired because he was informed that he wouldn't get a promotion to Captain.

One reason navies get top heavy, is to incentivize retention with a higher pay grade and status.

The USN seems to be (based upon what I see) "mostly LT's" - as in, more officers in the O-3 LT grade than in the rest.
US Army, it seems to be 1LT (O2).
In the US military, the minimums for making O3 are also pretty much the mode as well - few O1's get passed over at all, and most O2's make O3 on first eligibility.... And most who fail have 3.5 years in of a 4 year commitment, and so go return to civilian life... or drop to Guard/Reserves.

Then again, a lot of USN officers have 6 or 8 year active commitments, unlike the army.

 

[Poppyseed45]

Let's see..
Taking the TIG from statutory minimum TIG from 10 USC §619...

	USN	HG	Req TIG	Cum Min TIS	“TermsMin”	R#	Terms Min	R#	Terms Min
O1	Ens	Ens	1.5	1.5	1	R1	1	R1	1
O2	LtJG	LtJG	2	3.5	1		1	R2	2
O3	Lt	Lt	3	6.5	2	R2	1	R3	3
O4	LCdr	LCdr	3	9.5	3	R3	2		4
O5	Cdr	Cdr	3	12.5	4	R4	3	R4	5
O6	Capt	Capt	1	13.5	4	R5	4	R5	6
O7	RALH	Comm	1	14.5	4	R6	5	R6	7
O8	RAdm	RAdm	0	14.5	4
O9	VAdm	VAdm	0	14.5	4
O10	Adm	Adm	0	14.5	4
O11		FAdm	0	14.5	4

[tc=2]titles[/tc][tc=3]US Navy 2017[/tc][tc=2]CT Bk1[/tc][tc=2]MGT[/tc]

Nominally, the minimums are harsher in MGT, but only because the lack of ability to commission and promote in the same term.

MGT1 CGen has several "broken" features... up-or-out (present in current USN, but not by statute; US army likewise), too long in the lower officer ranks, compression in the top ranks.

CT Bk1 compresses the top ranks in the same way.
CT Bk4-5 lengthens mid-career ranks (O3-O4-O5) by 1 year over US... 4 years rather than 3, due to the terms instead of years calulation, and 1 promotion per term.

Note also, US real world, promotion to admiral is seldom 1 year after captain... and often is to a higher grade, rather than actually promoted, as admiralty ranks are in fact mostly positional - all officer promotions past O7 are appointment by the president under delegation from congress (10 USC §525)
Usually, tho', it's 3-5 years as a captain (O6) before admiral or retirement; admirals usually serve 2-6 years per star... each new star being a new position higher up the chain.

Looking at the RN, instead... Ensign: non-extant
SubLt 12 months (1 year)
Lieutenant 30 months (2.5 years)
So, one can make LtCdr in term 1 in the current Royal Navy... and according to the Royal Navy, it's almost automatic to there: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/brochures/graduates
After that, it gets wonky. Average career seniority at promotion to grade, however, is...

Admiral TIS:32
Commodore TIS: 29
Captain TIS: 25
Cdr TIS: 19
Lt Cdr TIS: 11
Source:
What Do They Know: Freedom of Information Request​

As always, thanks for that Aramis! Does give insight. And maybe I'll re-dust off CT and have a stare.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Now THAT I forgot about, the up or out "policy" in MgT 1e! Have to re-read and do the math but, yeah, yes, this might be the thing that balances things out. Ahem. No one would make it far enough to retire without some promotions, since the dice would in general force them out. Sort of the back-end way of doing what I was thinking (since the campaign is "in the Navy." But still, interesting.

another factor in the historical royal navy (and in the honourverse) was the use of "half pay" status to idle and deactivate excess officers, which would often be used during peacetime to reduce manning, but keep officers on the books and liable for service if needed.


also, their was the "yellow admiral" phenomenon, where captains were promoted to admiral, but rather than assigned a command, were just placed on half pay and shoved into unofficial retirement (the "yellow" part is a reference to the sand of the beach, and distinguished them form active admirals, who were part of red, white and blue squadrons).

Promotion was, once you reached post captain (ie the rank of captain, not the job of captain), either for outstanding achievement, but mostly on strict seniority, thus the emphasis on time in rank (and the outrage that captains near the top of the list have when some upstart goes and does something heroic and gets promoted over them).

 

[Condottiere]

Makes more sense to reinstate half pay, since physically speaking the officers won't deteriorate, and you still have them on retainer.

You can also rotate the officer corps during peacetime, and maintain a larger pool of them.

One issue would be that incompetent officers won't die off, and the navy command will have to figure out what to do with them, if they can't figure out how to persuade them to retire, and don't have enough grounds to cashier them.

 

[Thanos]

Is there any info in the OTU that makes either one of these (USN or RN) more likely or would it be something else altogether?

 

[aramis]

Is there any info in the OTU that makes either one of these (USN or RN) more likely or would it be something else altogether?

Option 3: RN or USN circa 1800... No automatic promotions, no up or out, and both patronage and competence can lead to promotions.

 

[Poppyseed45]

Option 3: RN or USN circa 1800... No automatic promotions, no up or out, and both patronage and competence can lead to promotions.

Is this Traveller's default? Can be, though didn't know it was the 1800s we should be looking at for this particular part. If that's true, then it seems that there would have to be, as someone mentioned earlier, some mechanism to deal with people you don't need. There can't be infinite Petty Officer positions for a particular specialty, for example.

 

[aramis]

Is this Traveller's default? Can be, though didn't know it was the 1800s we should be looking at for this particular part. If that's true, then it seems that there would have to be, as someone mentioned earlier, some mechanism to deal with people you don't need. There can't be infinite Petty Officer positions for a particular specialty, for example.

Keep in mind, the concept of rank as we understand it is really post-Age-of-sail...

Still, by the 1800's, the officer ranks were pretty much in place.
Enlisted ranks in that same era were largely provisional, not truly substantive - leave the ship or regiment, and they're negotiation elements, not automatic. (IE, Leave the HMS Victory as a Gunner's Mate, and you might simply be signed onto the Respite as an able seaman.)

ALso, the lack of communications are comparable to the 1800's, too... until about 1830.

The importance of Social Rank, as well...

Not to mention, one of the precursor games to Traveller is very much 17th C in tone: En Garde...