Condottiere
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How much is the circular error probable again for jumping?
When not disturbed by gravitational fields and a rotating, moving, platform?
When not disturbed by gravitational fields and a rotating, moving, platform?
Military tactics for battle dress
- Thread starter Baroun Tardis
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mike wightman
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In which reference frame?
Agreed. As I said, if we accept Meson Guns are in general use in ground combat, the whole thread (and anyoen for ground combat at a TL where they exist) is moot, as are armies at those TLs...
Spinward Flow
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ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!
You have discovered the Forward Observer, Recon and Communications skills!
The CEP of a Meson gun is based on the precision of the accelerators in timing the particles.
Ostensibly, it should be quite precise, but, on the other hand, there can be resolution issues. You have light speed particles, charged up to XXX charge state. As the particles travel, they lose their charge and, eventually, combine and cause the energy burst.
So, its a matter of the precision of the charge. Because when you're moving at the speed of light, 1m is 1/300,000,000th of a second -- which is pretty specific. Part of this can be done with the mesons accepting a window of a charge, so, in "slow motion", you may see the wave front of particles as they approach the target. Lesser charged one lighting up before the target, higher charged ones past the target, with the bulk being in the bell curve center of the charge distribution, enough to cause actual damage.
We don't know how precise they can be. We don't know how small the charges can be. There may well be gaps in resolution (i.e. can only be place every XXX meters due to internal resolution limitations of the gun), but that's "ok" because the charges are big enough to overlap those gaps -- but that lessens the precision of the gun. If you can tune it down to "only" 50 meters, well, that may or may not be useful in some cases.
Imagine if you can only put a charge in the center of a 50m square, but if the charge has a 75 meter diameter, for most practical purposes it's not a real issue. But, if you could dial down the charge to, say, 10m, well there's a bunch of things that you can't hit with that resolution of placement and that small of a charge. You can hit the south side of the street, but not the north.
Most things don't have this problem as they run into things. Like "just jump to the planet, let the 100D pull you out".
Just makes the idea that they can be used at all even more amazing, considering how hard it is.
Ostensibly, it should be quite precise, but, on the other hand, there can be resolution issues. You have light speed particles, charged up to XXX charge state. As the particles travel, they lose their charge and, eventually, combine and cause the energy burst.
So, its a matter of the precision of the charge. Because when you're moving at the speed of light, 1m is 1/300,000,000th of a second -- which is pretty specific. Part of this can be done with the mesons accepting a window of a charge, so, in "slow motion", you may see the wave front of particles as they approach the target. Lesser charged one lighting up before the target, higher charged ones past the target, with the bulk being in the bell curve center of the charge distribution, enough to cause actual damage.
We don't know how precise they can be. We don't know how small the charges can be. There may well be gaps in resolution (i.e. can only be place every XXX meters due to internal resolution limitations of the gun), but that's "ok" because the charges are big enough to overlap those gaps -- but that lessens the precision of the gun. If you can tune it down to "only" 50 meters, well, that may or may not be useful in some cases.
Imagine if you can only put a charge in the center of a 50m square, but if the charge has a 75 meter diameter, for most practical purposes it's not a real issue. But, if you could dial down the charge to, say, 10m, well there's a bunch of things that you can't hit with that resolution of placement and that small of a charge. You can hit the south side of the street, but not the north.
Most things don't have this problem as they run into things. Like "just jump to the planet, let the 100D pull you out".
Just makes the idea that they can be used at all even more amazing, considering how hard it is.
Condottiere
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I'm going to give another, obvious, example.
Meson communicators.
How do you coincide the emergence from warp of mesons, so precisely, that you can have a continuous communication between two meson communicators on different, moving, spacecraft?
They basically tell each other where they are, or more importantly, where they're going to be.
I'm not saying that you couldn't try sniping the local terrorist cell leader in the toilet, but mesons aren't self correcting, and you're firing blind through a mountain range, or into one, it can become a game of battleship.
Essentially, you're going to have a non cooperative target, and you'll be spending a great deal of time ensuring that you have the correct coordinates, the weapon platform is calibrated and fed the correct coordinates, and that everything synchronizes when the trigger is pulled.
Meson communicators.
How do you coincide the emergence from warp of mesons, so precisely, that you can have a continuous communication between two meson communicators on different, moving, spacecraft?
They basically tell each other where they are, or more importantly, where they're going to be.
I'm not saying that you couldn't try sniping the local terrorist cell leader in the toilet, but mesons aren't self correcting, and you're firing blind through a mountain range, or into one, it can become a game of battleship.
Essentially, you're going to have a non cooperative target, and you'll be spending a great deal of time ensuring that you have the correct coordinates, the weapon platform is calibrated and fed the correct coordinates, and that everything synchronizes when the trigger is pulled.
kilemall
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Pretty big, but as a percentage of the distance travelled, tiny.
kilemall
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Zhodani clairvoyants may give an edge here.
Exactly, set up a grid, and fire away. Loved that game. Though it isn't much different than regular artillery, we call the MLRS "a grid square remover" for the same reason.
mike wightman
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What ever meson technology is it certainly isn't something that our current understanding of mesons can handwave.
Battlefield Meson Accelerators do not leave residual radiation per Striker. I would guess that the radiation emitted is prompt, hence the HG damage; a quick burst of particles without lingering radioactivity.
The sphere of effect extending underground is not necessarily a bad thing. Tunnel complexes, subways and sewers have often been used to shelter troops.
A number of factors determine this in Striker. Short answer is every 30 seconds but it make take up to a few minutes to get off the initial burst if your crew quality is low.
Indirect fire in Striker is aimed at an area, not a specific target. Note that this is for all unguided indirect fire. The impact area can be adjusted across a wide area so it is possible to engage moving vehicles within the burst radius of the weapon.
Meson communicators are actually based on screen technology, so, in theory, they're detecting the mesons hitting the screen, so don't need to be precise like the weapons are.
Nice, so the bombed terrain does not glow in the dark, just is fully sterilized...
And by civilians as bonb shelters...
On a sphere about 100 m radius (as it was said here), this means the full sterilization of the terrain up to this deepth. Not even bacteriae are left...
Even a walking person (at an aproximate speed of 5-6 m/s) wold be out of the radius in those 30", let alone a grav belt equiped soldier or a grav vehicle...
So, assuming more or less Heinlein's Starship Troopers tactics, where infantry is very dispersed, you'll probably need a meson blast per each trooper or pair of troopers. With the devasting effects of the MGs, which area will you sterilize to destroy a Company? or a Battalion?
So, what would be left to keep?
Again, if those are the tactics, then you just bomb the planet with mesons from the space, The result will be the same and you save the infantry costs.
Or better yet, instead of invading a planet you, once space supremacy is achieved, just accelerate a large planetoid towards the world and, being the only one able to stop it, offer a "surrender or die" ultimatum... If the don't, whell, the meteor will do the work...
Political repercussions would be another matter, of course
But, again, if those mass terror tactics are the norm, you don't spend any money in infantry, and less so in BD equipped one. As infantry will only be needed for occupation (if anything to be occupied is left), CES or CA would be enough,
But then, again, and excuse me to pest you all with this, this whole thread is moot
For those of us that, maybe because we're naive, believe those mass terror tactics are not used, and planets are invaded instead, at least in our TU (that sure differ from yours, at least in this point), discussing the tactics those BD equipped soldiers is not so moot
I must have misunderstood. I thought you had rules questions about Striker. My apologies.
That said, you don't need meson accelerators to make a mess: Zone Rouge
If no level of collateral damage can be tolerated, perhaps you should reconsider using the military. They have a history of breaking things.
Regards
That said, you don't need meson accelerators to make a mess: Zone Rouge
If no level of collateral damage can be tolerated, perhaps you should reconsider using the military. They have a history of breaking things.
Regards
Condottiere
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Galaxy Rangers.
They're cybered up.
They're cybered up.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
When you go to war you do so to win.
Civilian casualties are a truly evil consequence but until we find a better way to conduct war then they will happen.
Civilian casualties are a truly evil consequence but until we find a better way to conduct war then they will happen.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
One of the unspoken aspects of the classic Imperial Rules of War and its effective outlawing use of nuclear weapons is that no such stricture applies to meson guns or PA against airless worlds.
The Imperium reserves high tech WMD to itself, the cardinal sin of nukes is the potential for low tech common use wreaking havoc on worlds and shipping. The trade must flow.
That implies a break glass aspect to their use, although the threat may be darkly hinted quite often.
But they will use them, if only to give the threat teeth. Part of that we’ll know the time when we see it no hard rules, and a need to keep such actions justifiable to avoid true uprising.
The Imperium reserves high tech WMD to itself, the cardinal sin of nukes is the potential for low tech common use wreaking havoc on worlds and shipping. The trade must flow.
That implies a break glass aspect to their use, although the threat may be darkly hinted quite often.
But they will use them, if only to give the threat teeth. Part of that we’ll know the time when we see it no hard rules, and a need to keep such actions justifiable to avoid true uprising.
The ban is specifically for nuclear weapons, not for WMD.
Nonehteless, IIRC, the comando mission in LBB4 talks about nukes being not expected due to the the high value of the target (see that not because of IRW), but some limited chemical use is not ruled out
See also that what is a nuclear weapon is neither specified... MgT defines fusion weapons as "firing what amounts to a directed nuclear explosion" (see this old thread about this), and ITTR starmerc ships are forbidden of MGs and PAWs with a rating over 7
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