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Missile Intruder [aka submarine]

I just started dusting off my old High Guard rules to create a "missile intruder" as I wanted to intrude something akin to a submarine in a resurrected campaign. [And not use SD boats which seem like a very close analogy to PT boats of 2nd World War.]

To achieve this feel I have a 2500 ton hull with a 50 ton missile bay and a black globe generator.
My real issue is how high and effective to make the BG? I have it currently as factor 4 because this is a tech level 15 Imperial design. Low jump [2] but 6G and agility points = 6. [fairly easy to do as the missiles and BG don't use energy points]

Any comments on this idea/design? I would post more but I don't have the stats here with me. The promiscuous use of the black globe generator is making me pause a bit becasue I do not want it to be common place.

I'm building a universe loosely modelled on 1870-1914 Europe. {I know I know....AH's Diplomacy in space but it seems to be working. Guess which empire is going to have a small battleship fleet and a growing missile intruder fleet to threaten the empire that has a 2 navy standard?
 
Originally posted by secretagent:
I just started dusting off my old High Guard rules to create a "missile intruder" as I wanted to intrude something akin to a submarine in a resurrected campaign. [And not use SD boats which seem like a very close analogy to PT boats of 2nd World War.]

To achieve this feel I have a 2500 ton hull with a 50 ton missile bay and a black globe generator.
My real issue is how high and effective to make the BG?
Assuming you just want the black globe for pre attack hiding and post attack retreat you should just go with the factor 1. The only difference between BGs is the flicker rate and that's not really relevant to a submarine model.

To stay with the sub analogy you might want to place an upper limit on size for a ship that can be cloaked (say 2,500 to 5,000 dtons.) And increase the cost of the black globe considerably. This will allow your sub force to exist but also explain why ships of the line aren't all cloaked.

You might also want to look at using white globes instead of black (ignore the higher TL since this is IYTU) as they give a better feel for the submarine as a weapon of war.

I'm building a universe loosely modelled on 1870-1914 Europe. {I know I know....AH's Diplomacy in space but it seems to be working. Guess which empire is going to have a small battleship fleet and a growing missile intruder fleet to threaten the empire that has a 2 navy standard?
Whichever empire your basing off of the French would be my guess since they were early adopters of the submarine for just that situation.
 
Assuming you just want the black globe for pre attack hiding and post attack retreat you should just go with the factor 1. The only difference between BGs is the flicker rate and that's not really relevant to a submarine model.
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Excellent point. I considered that briefly but I think you are right.


To stay with the sub analogy you might want to place an upper limit on size for a ship that can be cloaked (say 2,500 to 5,000 dtons.)
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The HG rules don't call for it but the effectiveness of hiding might be good. after all a 2000 to 5000 ton black ball might not be detected but a 500,000 ton black ball drifting through space will alarm just about any one. HG rules state that BGs render a ship invisible until you are about 2 or 3 kilometers away but this makes even more sense with a small ship as opposed to a large one.


You might also want to look at using white globes instead of black (ignore the higher TL since this is IYTU) as they give a better feel for the submarine as a weapon of war.
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excuse my ignorance but what is a white globe? [I'm using my original CT books]

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Whichever empire your basing off of the French would be my guess since they were early adopters of the submarine for just that situation.
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Excellent guess. However on the tradition of the the French the technical flaws will not be resolved until a humorless cluster of stars with excellent engineering skills tries its hand.

Thanks for your comments.

ps. In play testing so far, the missile intruder has only limited success against dreadnaughts/battleships but plays havoc with Cruisers and below. Merchant vesels --even armed ones are fairly easy prey to the suprise attack.
 
Originally posted by secretagent:
excuse my ignorance but what is a white globe? [I'm using my original CT books]
Oops, I forgot those didn't see print untill MT.

"White globes restrict any projectile or beam from contacting the craft while still allowing occupants to see out and to use sensors without restriction." - MT Referee's Manual page 80

They aren't available until TL 20 but for an alternate universe and with perhaps some other limitations they might be a better fit.

ps. In play testing so far, the missile intruder has only limited success against dreadnaughts/battleships but plays havoc with Cruisers and below. Merchant vesels --even armed ones are fairly easy prey to the suprise attack.
Which is a close match to submarine effectiveness IRL so I think you're probably on the right track.
 
Oops, I forgot those didn't see print untill MT.

"White globes restrict any projectile or beam from contacting the craft while still allowing occupants to see out and to use sensors without restriction." - MT Referee's Manual page 80

They aren't available until TL 20 but for an alternate universe and with perhaps some other limitations they might be a better fit.
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Thanks for the information. I would emply the white globe with very severe limitations as I don't want a lot of Star Trek crap and the black globe makes the whole enterprise [no pun] more risky for the crew of the MI. Very much like the early submarines -- lots of dangers and high risk.


Which is a close match to submarine effectiveness IRL so I think you're probably on the right track.
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Yes, my gut feeling is that this is a ship that replicated the dangers and the advantages of submarines circa 1890-1917. Also useful for smuggling ISS operatives onto unfriendly planets.
[the MI is streamlined]

I'll post the High Guard statistics later once I have them refined a bit. Have some stars for your trouble now that I know hot to give them.
 
I had thought of an idea like that myself (a missle intruder), but I planned to use a mercenary cruiser for that role. It would be 880 dton (80 tons for two drop tanks), increased armour, increased maneuver and armed with 6 torpedo turrents (missles) and two patricle acc turrents.
the reason for the drop tanks are for when it comes out of jump space, it if encounters trouble it has enough fuel to fight it's way out. I wanted it under a 1000 dtons for better "invisibility" and equipped it with two EMM packages, if one is damaged it can power up the other one.
Also because the mercenary cruiser is uncommon in the Imperium it would not arouse immediate suspicion.
That's were spies come in, (good intelligence will let you know which marcenary companies are in the area, disquise yourself as one of their cruisers
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Thanks Arioch. I looked at using one of the common designs floating around but the Mercenary Cruiser and a modified SDB both fell flat until I dressed it up with the 50 ton missile bay.

Also did you investigate using a black globe? If so, how did that work in testing?
 
If you're asking me about a black globe, no, but for the Merc cruiser I made all the missle turrents one battery giving a UCP factor of 5 instead of six turrents at 3, although that's still not as good as a "torpedo" 50 dton bay.

My idea of a sweet intruder, two 50 ton meson bays, one 50 ton missle bay, a meson screen and a black globe, a 5000 dton, J4, man 5 starship.

One of my campaign ideas was to have a merc company capture a Kinnunir cruiser specifically for the globe.
 
secretagent wrote:

"HG rules state that BGs render a ship invisible until you are about 2 or 3 kilometers away but this makes even more sense with a small ship as opposed to a large one."


Mr. Agent,

Yup, the rules do state that, right there on page 43. Did you read the next sentence though?

'In battle this will have no effect, since a ship that suddenly disappearsfrom enemy sensorsin this way will have itscourse predicted on the basis of its last known position; since the ship cannot maneuver while the field is on, the prediction is always correct.' HG2, page 43

Then there are the bits that came before that, stuff like; 'While the black globe is on, all enemy fire automatically hits the screen,..." and 'No energy may be removed from the screen while is on.' and 'All fire also auotmatically hits the (although it may not penetrate the ship's defenses) in first turn the black globe is turned off.'

I belong to the 'ct-starships' group at Yahoo Groups and we've been playing arund with HG2 since the late 90s. I would very much like to see the design of your 'sub' and the designs of the 'cruisers' it plays 'havoc' with.

How does a 50 dT missile bay manage to 'play havoc' with it's <9 weapon factor? You'll recieve no auto crits because the cruiser's size code is larger than than the missile bay's weapon factor. You'll even have a +6drm on the damage tables due to <9 weapon factor; unless you're using nucs and then the cruiser's TL15 damper will make short use of them. Are the cruisers armored? Do they have laser and/or sand batteries for anti-missile defenses? How does the sub wreck 'havoc' by inflicting a few wep-1 or fuel-1 hits on a cruiser?

How does your sub survive it's initial volley? Once it 'globes up', a cruiser can drop a *lot* of EPs into the sub's capacitors. Nuc missiles alone; which the sub cannot stop, inflict 100 EPs times their factor. Spinal mounts inflict their full EP requirements. While the globe is full up, the sub can't even dispose of EPs.

I'd very much like to see the ship designs you're using; that won't take much to post, a HG2 USP is just a few rows of numbers. I'd also like to see what tactics you have them using. Given what I know about HG2, I can't quite understand how or why your 'sub' can work.

If you have the time, check out the DGP article 'Project Blackheart' and the description of the Nemesis-class cruisers there. That vessel jumps while globed on a pre-determined normal space vector. At a predetermined time, she drops her globe, volleys with her spinal mount, and immediately jumps away. She tackles known Zho bases, supply routes, and other locations; places where vessels are known to be weeks in advance. Because she has a spinal battery, she can impose automatic critical hits on her targets. Unlike your sub, she'll be inflicting much more damage then a puny weapon-1 or fuel-1 result.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
"the rules do state that, right there on page 43. Did you read the next sentence though?"
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Actually, I read the whole page. I have even read the whole book at one time or another.


'In battle this will have no effect, since a ship that suddenly disappearsfrom enemy sensorsin this way will have itscourse predicted on the basis of its last known position; since the ship cannot maneuver while the field is on, the prediction is always correct.' HG2, page 43
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Indeed I know that. The missile intruder works on the principle of SURPRISE. The last paragraph regarding black globes mentions the possibility of jumping in-system under black globe status.

"Then there are the bits that came before that, stuff like; 'While the black globe is on, all enemy fire automatically hits the screen,..." and 'No energy may be removed from the screen while is on.' and 'All fire also auotmatically hits the (although it may not penetrate the ship's defenses) in first turn the black globe is turned off.'
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Yes yes yes. All true. Survival in a missile intruder is a very dicey affair. many of them have been lost in play test too by the way.


I belong to the 'ct-starships' group at Yahoo Groups and we've been playing arund with HG2 since the late 90s.
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I was goofing around with High Guard since it was first published. I was playing CT back in 1978.


I would very much like to see the design of your 'sub' and the designs of the 'cruisers' it plays 'havoc' with.
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Several of the smaller lighter cruisers in Supplement 9 Fighting Ships. Havoc doesn't necessarily mean destroying sinking by the way. A good crippling hit can occur too.


How does a 50 dT missile bay manage to 'play havoc' with it's <9 weapon factor? You'll recieve no auto crits because the cruiser's size code is larger than than the missile bay's weapon factor. You'll even have a +6drm on the damage tables due to <9 weapon factor; unless you're using nucs and then the cruiser's TL15 damper will make short use of them.
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50 ton bay at TL 15 = 9 not < 9. And nuclear missile can be very effective. Plus in you may run games where a nuclear damper is always running. That isn't standard practice IMTU esp. when warchips are in dock or orbit over "safe" planets.


Are the cruisers armored?

yes.

Do they have laser and/or sand batteries for anti-missile defenses?

yes.


How does the sub wreck 'havoc' by inflicting a few wep-1 or fuel-1 hits on a cruiser?
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If a vessel is caught off guard then those defenses are not as effective. An MI can wreak havoc on an UNSUSPECTING cruiser. I did not make that clear and perhaps I should have.

How does your sub survive it's initial volley? Once it 'globes up', a cruiser can drop a *lot* of EPs into the sub's capacitors. Nuc missiles alone; which the sub cannot stop, inflict 100 EPs times their factor. Spinal mounts inflict their full EP requirements. While the globe is full up, the sub can't even dispose of EPs.
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A very fair question. And the answer is that in a fleet circumstance it may not get away. It has 6G manu. and it can set the BG onto 40% flicker. It then runs like hell to get back into jump space. If there are destroyers around or the cruiser is only lightly damaged then the Missile Intruder and can be torn up quickly. A Missile Intruder can't hold its own in a standing fight with most destroyers or fleet escorts let alone cruisers.

I'd very much like to see the ship designs you're using; that won't take much to post, a HG2 USP is just a few rows of numbers. I'd also like to see what tactics you have them using. Given what I know about HG2, I can't quite understand how or why your 'sub' can work.
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It works on the same principle that U-47 worked on when it sank the Royal Oak at Scapa Flow. It sneaks in system and hits and runs. Taking on a cruiser in a traditional battle is suicide and the MI will always lose as you correctly point out.

IMTU I also allow the MI to "run at periscope depth" in a way by allowing it to run on flicker and at long range it gets a 50% chance of not being picked up on long range sensors as anything more than an echo or anomaly.
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If you have the time, check out the DGP article 'Project Blackheart' and the description of the Nemesis-class cruisers there. That vessel jumps while globed on a pre-determined normal space vector. At a predetermined time, she drops her globe, volleys with her spinal mount, and immediately jumps away.
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Exactly. That is how the MI works. It is single purpose use. It is not very flexible and at 2000 to 3000 tons it is not a warship of the line. I'm just trying to keep spinal mounts out of it to keep the vessel small.


She tackles known Zho bases, supply routes, and other locations; places where vessels are known to be weeks in advance. Because she has a spinal battery, she can impose automatic critical hits on her targets. Unlike your sub, she'll be inflicting much more damage then a puny weapon-1 or fuel-1 result.
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THe MI is also a commerce raider and attacks shipping. She can take on armed merchantmen. The sweeping statement about crippling a cruiser was not meant to imply that an MI could destroy a cruiser always or even that an MI was a fair match for a cruiser. Caught off guard an MI can be lsot to a pair of well run SDBs.


Sincerely,
Larsen

Thanks for your input and criticism. My post wasn't meant to raise your blood pressure though.
Nice to meet you.
 
I think this looks good. And welcome, if I haven't done so!
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Thank you and thanks for the feedback.
 
My idea of a sweet intruder, two 50 ton meson bays, one 50 ton missle bay, a meson screen and a black globe, a 5000 dton, J4, man 5 starship.
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that sounds like it might be more of a punch than mine. Mine only has an armored hull and some laser turrrets but I still have a little bit of room to add on a few other things.

Thanks for the exchange.


One of my campaign ideas was to have a merc company capture a Kinnunir cruiser specifically for the globe.
 
Just another thought I had regarding a missle intruder.

I am familiar with the MT rules so my ideas may not work for CT or HG.

A missle intruder with a black globe could also be equipped with a nuclear damper/repulsor/Man6/agility6. If it is given large energy sinks then what it can do is use the energy to power its defensive systems. Getting hammered by a cruiser may not be a bad thing as it would actually provide the intruder with a large energy reserve to activate its defensive systems.

As for a missle intruder taking on a cruiser, not a good idea, let's remember the danger of the sub was to merchant shipping not capital warships (there are some exceptions of course).
The fact that a Navy would have to divert starships to protect merchant ships would reduce the navies resources in major conflict areas where the resources are needed.
Lets not forget the possibility of mine deployment, just the thought of a minefield around a gas giant would make spacers worried
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SA:

A missle intruder with a black globe could also be equipped with a nuclear damper/repulsor/Man6/agility6. If it is given large energy sinks then what it can do is use the energy to power its defensive systems. Getting hammered by a cruiser may not be a bad thing as it would actually provide the intruder with a large energy reserve to activate its defensive systems.
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I have been toying with jamming the extra spaces with capacitors to store up points taken som that the MI wouldn't blow up too easily if it was caught and other vessels started to hammer it. The problem is that after a short period superior ships will overload the capacitors. Teh best thing it can do is run with the globe on flicker until it can jump away. Sounds smooth and easy in theory but never works so smoothly in practice. A single 3000 to 5000 ton destroyer might not kill it but two or three in pursuit and plastering it might.

"As for a missle intruder taking on a cruiser, not a good idea,..."

That has been done for fun in testing the MI in concept. As I told Mr. Lampshade, it can be done when the MI has complete surprise and catches a lone cruiser offguard. But even with the globe on 40% flicker and high speed the MI will come to a bad end more often than not. This reflects the reality of a sub. Once exposed it is can't fight on even terms or survive for long.


"let's remember the danger of the sub was to merchant shipping not capital warships (there are some exceptions of course)."

the primary role is to wreak havoc...er...I better use another word....disrupt shipping.
And there were exceptions -- HMS Royal Oak, HMS Barham, HMS Ark Royal, USS Indianapolis etc etc.

"The fact that a Navy would have to divert starships to protect merchant ships would reduce the navies resources in major conflict areas where the resources are needed."

There are never enough destroyers when you need them.

"Lets not forget the possibility of mine deployment, just the thought of a minefield around a gas giant would make spacers worried"

A good thought. Maybe I need to equip some MI's to lay mines as well. Merci...
 
secretagent wrote:

"The missile intruder works on the principle of SURPRISE. The last paragraph regarding black globes mentions the possibility of jumping in-system under black globe status."


Mr. Agent,

Sure, and the Nemesis-class cruisers operations take advantage of that. They also carry a weapon large enough to hurt large ships, your missile bay armed ship does not.

After the globe is dropped and the first combat round is done, there is *no* surpirse in the HG2 combat rules. There are no sensor rules either, so there is no 'long range snorkling'. Everyone knows where everyone else is, it's all a matter of hitting, penetrating, and causing damage.

"I was goofing around with High Guard since it was first published. I was playing CT back in 1978."

So have I, and so has most of the 'ct-starships' group. We had wait for the internet before we could found our eGroup. It's now a Yahoo group. Check it out, bring your 'sub' designs too.

"Havoc doesn't necessarily mean destroying sinking by the way. A good crippling hit can occur too."

"50 ton bay at TL 15 = 9 not <9."

Again, how do you recieve a 'crippling' hit when your weapons factor is equal to or less than 9? Those batteries have am automatic +6 drm on the tables so there's no chance of rolling a critical hit. Those batteries factors are smaller than their target's size codes, so there's no chance of being granted a critical hit. How can a sinlge fuel-1 or weapons-1 hit be viewed as 'crippling' on even a light cruiser?

"And nuclear missile can be very effective. Plus in you may run games where a nuclear damper is always running. That isn't standard practice IMTU esp. when warchips are in dock or orbit over "safe" planets."

Ah, there it is! You're using house rules! That answers everything. Yeah, the damper isn't running because the warship is at dock; of course the dock doesn't have a damper either, or the picket ships, right?

LEW - Are the cruisers armored?

"yes."

BUt nucs are still effective because the dampers aren't running and the armor factor is less than 6? Slap on 6 levels of armor and even nucs can't roll a critical hit result.

"If a vessel is caught off guard then those defenses are not as effective. An MI can wreak havoc on an UNSUSPECTING cruiser. I did not make that clear and perhaps I should have."

The unsuspecting cruiser has no picket ships? No one guarding the 'harbor' or 'dock', even though the area is viewed as 'safe'?

What you didn't make clear is that this is an IMTU exercise; you've added assumptions and conditions that do not apply to the OTU.

"A very fair question. And the answer is that in a fleet circumstance it may not get away. It has 6G manu. and it can set the BG onto 40% flicker. It then runs like hell to get back into jump space. If there are destroyers around or the cruiser is only lightly damaged then the Missile Intruder and can be torn up quickly. A Missile Intruder can't hold its own in a standing fight with most destroyers or fleet escorts let alone cruisers."

Tell me again why the area is seen as so safe that the vessel needn't run it's damper but there also aren't enough DDs or DEs flitting about?

"It works on the same principle that U-47 worked on when it sank the Royal Oak at Scapa Flow. It sneaks in system and hits and runs."

Entirely irrelevent, that type of stealthy manuevering does not and can not occur in the OTU. It may occur in YTU, but then it has no relevence for anyone else's TU *unless* they use your house rules.

"IMTU I also allow the MI to "run at periscope depth" in a way by allowing it to run on flicker and at long range it gets a 50% chance of not being picked up on long range sensors as anything more than an echo or anomaly."

Yet another house rule needed to make your design work.

LEW - If you have the time, check out the DGP article 'Project Blackheart' ..."

"Exactly. That is how the MI works. It is single purpose use."

Your MI generally resembles the Nemesis, but the DGP vessel carries a weapon that can actually harm other ships. The MI does not, unless we use your 'intermittent dampers' house rule and even then basic armor levels still work against the MI.

"THe MI is also a commerce raider and attacks shipping. She can take on armed merchantmen."

How big are merchantmen IYTU? Do the navies in YTU ship everything in PC-sized Beowulfs and Maravas? There are no merchantmen over 1000 dTons?

Let me state it again; The MI's main battery is too small to do the job the vessel was supposedly desinged for.

"Caught off guard an MI can be lsot to a pair of well run SDBs."

True, but it could also slag both of them. The MI can do great harm to the 'small fry'; those ships under 800 dT on which it can get an automatic critical hit in the first combat round. The MI would be a pike amongst the minnows against SDBs, PC-sized merchants, Type-T patrollers, and the like. The trouble is, those aren't the only ships out there.

Because Traveller is a RPG, most of the canonically described ships have been skewed towards the PCs end of things. To paraphrase Bruse Johnson, using descriptions of Pc vessels to make assumptions about navies and megacorp merchantmen is like using a snapshot of Indian Ocean dhow traffic to make assumptions about the USN and Lykes Lines.

Are you going to 'waste' a black globe on a vessel that can only beat up 'small fry'? On a vessel that will get stomped more often than not?

"Thanks for your input and criticism. My post wasn't meant to raise your blood pressure though. Nice to meet you."

Have no fears, my blood pressure is fine. I'm a long time ship combat crank and am always on the look out for new ideas and new tricks that work. Sadly, the MI isn't one of them. She can't fight in her weight class and is far too expensive an option for smacking around 'small fry'.

Nice meeting you too.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
Thanks, Larsen. It has been twenty years since I seriously played TCS, and I thought I was missing something.

If you permit nuclear dampers High Guard rules do not allow weapons whose damage is disporpotionate to their size. This means there is no equivalent to a 1900 torpedo or 1940 aircraft bomb, so SDBs are not torpedo boats and there is nothing like a WWII bomber.
 
Uncle Bob wrote:

"Thanks, Larsen. It has been twenty years since I seriously played TCS, and I thought I was missing something."


Uncle Bob,

I thought I was missing something too, then Mr. Agent supplied the lost bit; he's using some home brewed rules to tilt the odds in the MI's favor.

There's nothing wrong with hombrewed rules, I use them all the time. Check out Freelance Traveller for my 'Flexible Batteries' home brew.

"If you permit nuclear dampers High Guard rules do not allow weapons whose damage is disporpotionate to their size. This means there is no equivalent to a 1900 torpedo or 1940 aircraft bomb, so SDBs are not torpedo boats and there is nothing like a WWII bomber."

Precisely. I wish I had been able to say that as succinctly. Missiles in HG2 are *not* torpedos. Spinal mounts are the only 'one shot/cripple-kill' weapons in HG2 and even they are constrained somewhat.

The experiences gained from Real World naval combat can only be used so far in HG2. HG2 even stands some of those experiences on their head; Forex: HG2 fighters become LESS capable as TL increases and not more capable as occured in the Real World.

There are no 'PT boats' and there are no 'submarines', unless you develop home brew rules that allow them to work. And home brew rules are perfectly alright; I'd just like to know about them when reading a post saying that a 2K dT, missile bay armed, black globe shielded, ship can 'play havoc' with a cruiser.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
There are no 'PT boats' and there are no 'submarines', unless you develop home brew rules that allow them to work. And home brew rules are perfectly alright; I'd just like to know about them when reading a post saying that a 2K dT, missile bay armed, black globe shielded, ship can 'play havoc' with a cruiser.
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Here then is my crime. I don't use all the OTU and I am still fidgeting with the design.

I have been attempting to creat something to break the hold of the battleship/dreadnought much as some tried to do in the 1870's and 1880's. I have tried to stay within the general boundaries of High Guard and not create a "super ship" that breaks the rules but at the same time has certain advantages that would liven up play.

I'm sorry that the idea has no use to you or your game but such is life. I was not suggesting that you use it or that it would change the face of Traveller for all time.

And per your point about trying to turn Traveller into "Victory at Sea" and replay the 2nd World War -- I recognize and I actually agree with you that there is not always or should there be a direct connection between historical naval practices and Traveller.

I see you are an engineer by training. I happen to have been and still very much am a historian by training and outlook. So, I ask you, with your engineering bent, what weapon would fit into a ship this size or a ship under 3000 tons that would have a fair to remote chance of damaging a larger warship?

I have to attend to real world matters but I will try to respond to the points raised in your longer post later.
 
secretagent wrote:

"Here then is my crime. I don't use all the OTU and I am still fidgeting with the design."


Mr. Agent,

That is no crime at all. All of us fiddle with the rules and backgrounds in order to create something closer to our needs or the needs of our group. That's Traveller's bedrock strength; many from one, MTU, YTU, and the OTU. It's all good.

However, when we discuss our tweaks and adjustments, we usually let people know. My great mistake was in not asking you one question first; "Is this IYTU?". I assumed (a shocking and stupid habit) that you were working within the confines of the OTU and not within the boundaries of YTU; a setting that far better suits your needs because you have customized for yourself.

"I have been attempting to creat something to break the hold of the battleship/dreadnought much as some tried to do in the 1870's and 1880's."

That's a tall order. In our history, the folks of 1870-80 failed in their attempt to break the hold of the battleship. They had to wait until the late 1920s, for aircraft to be invented and developed sufficiently.

Subs and PT boats never did well against large combatants. Yes, there were some exceptions but those depended more on very unique local conditions; like the RN failing to deploy nets across Prien's route into Scapa because they thought no sub could travel there. Subs and PTs could slap around the small stuff, they could do all the 'brown water' fighting that was needed, but tackling the big boys was deadly for them.

One of the IJN's biggest mistakes in the Pacific War was tasking her subs specifically towards warships. Their failures in that role far outweighed any of their successes. They even failed as picket lines, Midway and Saipan show that.

US PT boats developed a nifty reputation in the southwest Pacific and Phillipines for their night fighting while flitting around the islands, but they rarely figured in any battle involving major combatants. Even at Suraigo(?) Strait, where the deck was stacked *heavily* in their favor, they failed to record a single torpedo hit on the IJN column.

"I have tried to stay within the general boundaries of High Guard and not create a "super ship" that breaks the rules but at the same time has certain advantages that would liven up play."

That's very tough and no one has succeeded in doing so... yet. That's why I pounced on your thread, I thought someone may have found the answer. And someone had, but only in their TU.
You may want to look at the Eurisko designs for some pointers or try designing at lower TLs. At TL 15 HG2 design resembles rock, paper, scissors.

"I'm sorry that the idea has no use to you or your game but such is life. I was not suggesting that you use it or that it would change the face of Traveller for all time."

I'm sorry if that impression came across. It wasn't my intention. We all customize our TUs. IMTU, low berth travel is cheaper and safer than in the OTU; much like curent day Western air travel. Over the years, I've posted ship designs, adventure hooks, and other materials on the TML to that effect, but I always ensure people know it is 'IMTU'. That way no one gets confused, no one need to post "Whipsnade, you blithering idiot, A isn't B, it's A!"

"I see you are an engineer by training."

Yup, it took them a *lot* of bananas but they eventually succeeded.

"I happen to have been and still very much am a historian by training and outlook. So, I ask you, with your engineering bent, what weapon would fit into a ship this size or a ship under 3000 tons that would have a fair to remote chance of damaging a larger warship?"

Strictly in the OTU? Sadly, none. But that shouldn't stop us from having fun. If the OTU is in the way of having fun, CHUCK IT OUT! ;)

Your idea on intermittent dampers is neat, so expand it. Take dampers out of the picture entirely and even fighters can carry a nuc missile that has a chance of applying some serious hurt to a warship.

Jigger the agility and size bonuses too, that way smaller, more agile vessels are harder to hit. Or go the other way and limit gees and agility that vessels over a certain size can achieve. Limit how many batteries`can be tasked for defense against a single missile hit.

An old dead tree issue of JTAS had a HG2 variant article that introduced another range band; close. Warships; i.e. fighters, missile boats, could make close attack runs and recieve 'to hit' and 'to pen' bonuses.

IMEHO, HG2 crams too much into that single computer factor; sensors, fire control, ECM, ECCM, etc. Chop it up into various abilities or create masking and jamming abilities that vessels can mix and match.

You can tweak the black globes too. Limit them to vessels below a certain size; the copies made from the Ancient's originals can only project a sphere of a certain diameter. Have high flicker rates play merry hell with the sensor and weapons lock rolls you devise. Allow them to shed EPs much faster and at high flicker rates.

Another method may be to allow any weapon that hits and penetrates to have a chance of causing a critical hit. As it stands now, no weapon factor of 9 or under can do that. Armor levels skew the chances even further. You could easily rule that a natural 2 thrown on 2D6 is a critical hit no matter what the size of the battery or levels of armor present.

The sky is the limit. Tweak, bend and break to your heart's content. Then, please share your creations with us, along with the rules changes that allows them to exists.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
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