MISSILES & ECM

[woodle]

Im unsure about the rules. If i have active jamming and sucessfully beat off the oppositons opposed role then my jamming is successful. Does this prevent missiles from being able to target my ship? Are missiles self homing or guided, do they each get a chance to break through jamming?

Any help much appreciated.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Woodle.
In t20 You can fire missiles seperatly or as a group.
If fired seperatly they do a lot less damage but each missile roles to hit, and each missile requires a crew man or computer program to hit (targeting).
If fired as a group then only one roll is required for the group, if the roll is a hit then they all hit for the USP + normal damage.
The ECM rules are vauge, so i use opossed roles, ECM V ECCM, if you have only one sensor tech he can only do one each turn. I assume the launcher uses ECCM and the target uses ECM.
Both use Technical-Sensors + sensor suite model number + tech level of the sensors + D20.
If ECM wins then the difference is added to the ships AC not the AR (harder to hit but not damage).
If ECCM wins then just a normal role (you cant improve above the standard role).
If your ship had two sensor suites you could do both at the same time if you had two sensor techs.
T20 missiles are controlled from launch to impact, (yes somehow the imperium lost the fire and forget tech, or active homeing).
Hope this helps, but probably not.
My message will either kill this thread or liven it up, halve my messages kill the thread the other halve start lively debate and i have no idea which one will be which.
Bye.

 

[mike wightman]

Actually, when you start to group weapons into batteries you do a lot less damage.
If you have 4 triple turrets mounting TL13+ beam lasers, do fire them separately for +4 to hit and 4d8 damage (that's 16d8 if all four hit) or fire them as two batteries of two turrets per battery for +5 to hit and 5d8 damage (10d8 if they both hit). By grouping them you have gained +1 to hit but lost 6d8 damage potential.
The same holds true for missiles.
The more weapons in the battery the greater your to hit bonus but at the loss of damage potential.
e.g. a factor 9 beam laser battery, 30 beam lasers in ten linked turrets, +9 to hit, 9d8 damage.
Ten turrets fired separately, +4 to hit 40d8 (potentially). Considering how easy it is to hit in T20 ship combat then I would go for the separate turrets every time, if I had enough gunners
If I do group them into batteries then 3 turret beam laser batteries are next in the efficiency stakes, IMHO of course.

 

[mike wightman]

Back to the sensors question.
If a ship uses sensor jamming then it is more difficult for an enemy ship to get a sensor to hit bonus. The rules as they are written appear to still allow gunners to fire at any target within range, but without the sensor lock thay don't get the targetting bonus.
As Lionel says, the rules are a little bit vague. Maybe a successful sensor jamming roll should provide a bonus to AC as he suggests, as well as removing the possibility of a sensor targeting bonus to hit.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Siggy.
Or you could make no sensor lock the same as using passive scan mods.
Against armoured targets single missiles or lazer turets will not hurt a ship (all damage will be soaked on the armour) so you need to mass your fire to have any chance of doing any damage.
If you fire singly then any damage done is applied single not lumped together as one shot. Also if you fire 30 lazers from 10 turets you will need 30 gunners (only 10 gunner positions are supplied with the turets so you will need a lot bigger bridge) and i'm not shore you can fire seperate weapons in the same turet except as a battery, ie - turet with 2 lazers and 1 missile, you could fire both lazers but not the missile on any turn or you could fire the missile but not the lazers on any one turn and if the missile dosn't hit in the turn of launch then you need to control it next turn so you cant fire or launch that turn either. (this is my interpretation of the rules but you can change anythin you like).
Bye.

 

[mike wightman]

Hi there Lionel,
where'd I mention firing them separately (that would be +1 to hit and 30d8 damage

)? Mind you, it is allowed in book 2 combat. 1 gunner firing a triple turret has to roll to hit three times, you need 1 gunner per turret not per weapon

I take your point about armoured ships, but then even factor 9 batteries are almost useless against fully armoured ships.

How about trying the sensor lock rules from MT and TNE, no sensor lock means you can't fire at all that turn. Better luck with the sensors next turn

 

[woodle]

Thanks Lionel and Sigg.
I guess it depends on what "Target lock" means. (see THB P162 Sensor jamming). If you read sensor jamming skill ( THB P97-98 ) It suggests that the jamming DC replaces what ever other DC is being used. Maybe you could use jamming DC as AC on the spacecraft unless you break the jamming. Regarding TNE rules they are clearer and give detailed rules on missile homing systems
which i cannot find in t20 rules.

 

[mike wightman]

As I've said before, the sensor rules in T20 are a bit confusing and contradictory in places. There are some good ideas, but the whole system needs to be played through a few tmes to identify the problems, then changes can be made.
Borrowing bits from TNE is a good way idea, IMHO

I definately think a Traveller's Aide covering starship combat would be a good idea, although it may have to change some of the systems presented in the rulebook.
YMMV

 

[Kevin Livingston]

As an aside, as an Electronic Warfare Specialist in "Uncle Sam's Air Force" I get so irked by the fact that the rules don't cover "passive" ECM systems (ala chaff and flares).

 

[Jester666]

Batteries give you extra plus on TH and USP (USP giving potential extra range.), but you should be able to short change on gunners as well. Ie one gunner per battery. This would give extra value to the battery idea. Apart from the long range pounding benefit that batteries give starships.

 

[Commander Drax]

In answer to the earlier comment regards, loosing the fire and forget technology, earlier traveller products broke missiles down into 3 distinct catagories. These were fire and forget, Semi Indepedant and gunner controlled, however for most games this was just 'colour' as all rolls to hit were the same. IMTU, I allow players to purchase whatever missiles they can get their hands on, doubling the price the price for each significant advantage. E.g. if a missile is a basic gunner controlled type that depends on an active comm line being unbroken between the gunner and missile/missile flotilla, these are the cheapest price and hit rolls are quite normal. Should the PC's then purchase and use Semi Independant missiles, that typically use some telemetry from the gunner or reflected active sensor emmisions from the firing ship etc in conjucntion with their own on board sensor suite/target recognition system, I allow +1 to hit rolls, though these missiles are twice as expensive as a normal one. Finally should they purchase fire and forget I allow an +2 to Hit rolls/targetting etc, and make these double the price of a semi independant missile. Fully independant missiles may probably use a small active sensor array to classify and home in on a target at close range (within the same hex) so circumstances are appropriate I allow the defending ship gunners etc +1 to sensor rolls when trying to shut it down.

It would be good if someone published a supplement along these lines, detailing the type of missiles generally available, as some might be slower than others but do more damage etc, some might make use of passive sensor triangulation, others might have stealth technology and be difficult to detect. In all an underused subject. These are just my ideas, but I hope they help.

 

[Commander Drax]

Sorry about the bad spelling and grammar, I'm just really tired at the moment. P.S. I would also like to see starships fitted with chaff dispensers and other anti missile countermeasures, should liven up the game and make dogfighting in small craft much more fun...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually against an armored opponent your damage goes way down. Armor factor 11 reduces your individual 3 laser batteries to no damage. A Factor 9 battery will still do damage to an Armor Factor 15 ship. Granted it won't do much SI damage, generally 2-4 points, but each time it does SI damage it also scores on the internal hit damage chart.

Your factor 3 nukes or laser heads won't damage an armored ship either, but if it is against an Armored ship with factor 15 armor and no damper, fighters being typical in this regard, you will still do damage. Again not much but internal hits are internal hits.

Also a crit from a big battery is going to do lots of damage, especially with nukes where a small battery won't do nearly as much per hit.

Against unarmored ships, ie Merchants or some of the ships in TA7 sure spread out your fire. Drednaught with no armour=Dred Not! But against real combat vessels, keep your batteries. Now High Guard, stated specifically that batteries have to be chosen at design time. Which means you can't decide to fire one round as one big battery and next round as 10 small batteries. T20 doesn't specifically state that but crew requirements imply it that way, 1 gunner per battery. Since the T20 rules are based on HG.... In MTU batteries are determined at time of ship design, the exception being fighter squadrons. Fighters need all the help they can get.

On Capital ships I find that turrets fill a more defensive role. In my designs the Laser turrets are there for knocking down missiles. In that case, given the ease in which gunners shoot down missiles I would tend to group my lasers into smaller batteries and have lots more of them. Keep the missile batteries grouped, or more commonly in bays. Sandcasters add so keep them grouped small. PA's in bays or not at all. Meson, well that is your Spinal, though a bunch of 100T bays and no spinal is a very, very nasty proposition. Spinal Meson mount 55% of the time kills any starship outright, 100T (tl 14+) bay will reduce most capital ships to SI<0 30% of the time. Fusion and Plasma guns are too short ranged and power intensive for anything but specialist operations. Or good for ships with really lousy sensors.

Of course in T20 on Capital ships the Meson weapon is king and everything else is just a side show, so does it really matter?

That is my take on weapons and batteries in T20.

 

[BetterThanLife]

And here I always thought of passive ECM as things like Stealth, flying at 0 feet, generally being a pain in the butt to detect in the first place.

I know the zoomies, aside from the A-10 drivers don't get quite that low, must be the Army that insists on flying between the bushes.

I think A-10 drivers are Tankers at heart. they seem to prefer to be on the ground or as close to it as possible.

Originally posted by Kevin Livingston:
As an aside, as an Electronic Warfare Specialist in "Uncle Sam's Air Force" I get so irked by the fact that the rules don't cover "passive" ECM systems (ala chaff and flares).