Modified Critical Hit System

[archhealer]

Originally posted by veltyen:
Battledress (as has been discussed many times) is too tough for normal weapons to even scratch, unless you ignore armor on a critical.

Under the base rules:
5d12 gauss rifle burst against standard battledress (AR10) does a paltry d12-11, every 12 hits you do a single point of damage to its 18 SI. A large rifle company opening concentrated fire onto a single battledress trooper may be able to take it down before the return fire cuts it to platoon sized.

With criticals that 7d12 does 2d12 against the battledress, enough to kill it (ignoring armor) with a single burst. If a critical does not ignore armor the burst is back to d12-9 (average 1/2 a point).

Against TL15 AR15 battledress the gauss rifle may as well be a bb gun, except on criticals (that ignore armor).

When tinkering with variant weapon rules, the critical effect was the important difference between rapidfire/multibarrel weapons and heavy weapons. A very heavy gauss rifle (4d12 base damage) and a quad barrel gauss rifle (4d12 base damage) are very similar weapons with two minor differences. The multibarrel weapon uses the same logistics chain as the normal gauss rifle, but only adds +2d on a critical. The very heavy gauss rifle uses a completely different round (a much bigger one obviously) but criticals are 8d12 before burst modifiers.

The battledress problem commonly gets fixed by dropping scaling for BD to 2 rather then 5, and allowing some stamina damage through to the operator.

I say treat BD as a vehicle, all standard rules apply so far as damage is concerned (But not using the vehiclular combat rounds, treat them as infantry for movement etc. as listed in the THB).

The reason for this is that even on critical hits, the wearer would be unlikely to take a hit. The internal hit location table for vehicles make combat dangerous; on a critical, the damage is dealt directly to the vehicle SI and a hit is rolled on the internal location table, potentially disabling the BD entirely on a single hit. Likely? No, not really, but possible. Also, hitting the driver (Wearer) is a result.

 

[Lochlaber]

My way of handling is the simplest and works the same for normal or critical damage. For a normal hit, roll the total amount of damage dice, then reduce that number of dice by the AR. If you have no dice left, then the person takes only a single point of damage or the remaining dice, all against stamina first, then lifeblood.

A critical is handled the same way, without the AR reduction, stamina then lifeblood. Extra dice of damage, such as autofire is not multiplied but added on the back end.

If all criticals go to lifeblood, then why bother with stamina or even multipliers. It will be rather rare for even the toughest, meanest Imperial Marine to have even 25% of his Stamina as life blood and since many people take more sedentary occupations, such as scientist, etc., they will have even lower Lifeblood.

All of this, some damage to stamina, some to lifeblood, complicates the game more than I enjoy, making me worry about too many factors at once and massively increasing the time needed to handle even a single round of combat. I admit that my way is a lot like a slightly modified hit point system but I would rather play the game with simpler rules,then spend hours handling rules lawyers.

As for the knife against battledress, unless it is a high tech, very sharp knife, specifically designed to puncture battledress or you take off your helmet, it isn't going to damage you, period.

 

[princelian]

It sounds like you're not doing weapon damage "right." I put right in quotes because in your game, however you run it.

However, in T20-as-written, weapon damage is applied directly to Stamina regardless of armor, much like D&D. The Armor Rating (AR) only applies to Lifeblood damage, thus:

ACR firing +1d burst = 3d8 damage. Target is wearing cloth armor (AR = 6). The target is hit, and the dice are 3, 5, and 8 for damage, doing 16 points to Stamina and 4 points to Lifeblood. (Lifeblood breakdown: 3d8 - 2 dice for AR = 1d8 (the highest, or 8 in this case) - 4 points for the remaining AR.)

 

[princelian]

princelian posted:

It sounds like you're not doing weapon damage "right." I put right in quotes because in your game, however you run it.

I meant to say:

It sounds like you're not doing weapon damage "right." I put right in quotes because in your game, however you run it IS right.

 

[princelian]

I've taken in the input from the lot of you, and sat down with simulated combats, and come to the following conclusions:

1) (actually a clarification) Additional dice from various sources (suppressing fire, autofire-for-damage, etc.) are not eligible for critical hits. Thus, a gauss rifle firing for +3d damage has 2d12 that are eligible for critical multiplication and 3d12 that aren't. Regular hit = 5d12, critical hit = 7d12.

2) All weapons in my T20 game are base 20/x2 for criticals. This flattens the power curve of the weapons somewhat, and may have some effect on the game balance of a weak-but-has-better-criticals weapon, but I can accept that. Some weapons still have a wider critical range (19-20/x2, 18-20/x2) or do more damage (20/x3 or even 20/x4 if there is such a weapon); never both.

3) Armor still applies to critical hits. A 12-Str human using a dagger threatens a critical on a 19-20 and the dagger will do 2d4+2. If the target is wearing mesh armor (AR=3), he will take 1d4 (the highest) damage to Lifeblood. If the target is wearing AR 10 Battle Dress, he is immune to even a critical hit from this weapon.

3a (example)) An autorifle (critical 20/x2) firing a 4-round burst does +2d damage, for a total of 3d12. Against the mesh-armored opponent, a critical hit does 1d12 (the highest) Lifeblood. Against the AR 10 BD opponent, the critical does 1d12-7 damage and might slightly damage the armor. Against a TL15 BD, with its AR of 15, this weapon, even firing full-auto, cannot harm the BD. (With AP ammo, it has a small chance on a critical hit...)

This system gives the players what they want (a critical hit system) while not being too horribly deadly, at least if you're in reasonably good armor. Unarmored opponents suffering critical hits are dead, dead, dead.

And that's pretty realistic, isn't it?

 

[c_osborne]

But if you only have 20 STA and 10 LB, then 3d12 can still kill you, regardless of armor. Because you take 3d12 STA on top of the 1d12-8 LB, and if the STA goes below 0, all remaining damage goes to LB. So armor does not make you invulnerable to anything.

Chad

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by princelian:
1) (actually a clarification) Additional dice from various sources (suppressing fire, autofire-for-damage, etc.) are not eligible for critical hits. Thus, a gauss rifle firing for +3d damage has 2d12 that are eligible for critical multiplication and 3d12 that aren't. Regular hit = 5d12, critical hit = 7d12.

2) All weapons in my T20 game are base 20/x2 for criticals. This flattens the power curve of the weapons somewhat, and may have some effect on the game balance of a weak-but-has-better-criticals weapon, but I can accept that. Some weapons still have a wider critical range (19-20/x2, 18-20/x2) or do more damage (20/x3 or even 20/x4 if there is such a weapon); never both.

3) Armor still applies to critical hits. A 12-Str human using a dagger threatens a critical on a 19-20 and the dagger will do 2d4+2. If the target is wearing mesh armor (AR=3), he will take 1d4 (the highest) damage to Lifeblood. If the target is wearing AR 10 Battle Dress, he is immune to even a critical hit from this weapon.

Nice rules princelian, I'll be borrowing them.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Chad Osborne:
But if you only have 20 STA and 10 LB, then 3d12 can still kill you, regardless of armor. Because you take 3d12 STA on top of the 1d12-8 LB, and if the STA goes below 0, all remaining damage goes to LB. So armor does not make you invulnerable to anything.

Chad

This is one reason why I have excess Stamina damage convert to fatigue levels rather than convert to lifeblood damage.

 

[princelian]

My apologies!!! I forgot to include that part:

4) Stamina is a measurement of, well, stamina, not hit points. It is non-lethal damage and works as follows:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Stamina = Full down to 1 = fully operational.
Stamina = 0 to -Con/2 = fatigued.
Stamina = -Con/2 to -2 x Con = exhausted.
Stamina < -2 x Con = unconscious.</pre>[/QUOTE]For Bobthemarine (8-level), with a Con of 16 and 62 Stamina, he is fully operational from 62 to 1 Stamina, fatigued when he's at 0 to -8 Stamina, exhausted when he's at -9 to -32 Stamina, and unconscious when he falls below -32 Stamina. NONE of that damage rolls over to Lifeblood. If you want to kill Bob, you'd better do Lifeblood damage.

From the SRD:

Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue.

 

[Rover]

Princelian,
I like the work you've done on this. I just may borrow it too.

 

[c_osborne]

Okay, that makes a lot more sense now. I may have to try it out and see how it works.

Chad

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by princelian:
4) Stamina is a measurement of, well, stamina, not hit points. It is non-lethal damage and works as follows:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Stamina = Full down to 1 = fully operational.
Stamina = 0 to -Con/2 = fatigued.
Stamina = -Con/2 to -2 x Con = exhausted.
Stamina < -2 x Con = unconscious.</pre>

[/quote]That's pretty much how I do it as well, except I allow them to go down to -Con in stamina damage for fatigued...
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Stamina = Full down to 1 = fully operational.
Stamina = 0 to -Con = fatigued.
Stamina = -Con to -2 x Con = exhausted.
Stamina < -2 x Con = unconscious.</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[princelian]

Fatigued isn't too bad a penalty, so I wanted more penalty sooner.

Conversely, one could create something between Fatigued and Exhausted (Fatausted? Extigued?

) for -1/2Con to -Con.

Thus:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Stamina = Full down to 1 = fully operational.
Stamina = 0 to -Con/2 = fatigued (no run/charge, -2 Str/Dex)
Stamina = -Con/2 to -Con = heavily fatigued (no run/charge, 3/4 speed, -4 Str/Dex)
Stamina = -Con to -2 x Con = exhausted (no run/charge, 1/2 speed, -6 Str/Dex)
Stamina < -2 x Con = unconscious</pre>[/QUOTE]You could tweak this all sorts of ways, with more gradiations of fatigue, etc. In fact, one could do this throughout the range of Stamina, to simulate CT a little.

In such a system, you wouldn't have a set Stamina value per se, but instead you would begin down the fatigue chain every <Con> points of Stamina damage.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Stamina damage 0 to Con = -1 Str/Dex
Stamina damage Con to 2x Con = fatigued (as above)
Stamina damage 2x Con to 3x Con = heavily fatigued
Stamina damage 3x Con to 4x Con = exhausted
Stamina damage 4x Con to 5x Con = heavily exhausted (no run/charge, 1/4 speed, -8 Str/Dex)
Stamina damage 5x Con to 6x Con = mightily exhausted (as above -10 Str/Dex)
and so on</pre>[/QUOTE]You can tweak the multipliers and the penalties as you wish, and the stat damage might apply to all three stats (Str, Dex, AND Con) with the caveat that you wouldn't reduce Lifeblood from the Con damage.

What will eventually happen is that one of your physical stats will fall to 0, where you would fall unconscious. Remember that this is non-lethal damage, so a 0 Con does not kill you, just drops you unconscious.

This might all be more trouble than it's worth; just twiddling with the system aloud as I'm fairly wont to do... The significant advantage to this system is that you will suffer real penalties to actions for these damage levels. Each -2 Dex is -1 to attack rolls, for example. Each -2 Str drops how much you can carry, so long before you're rendered unconscious, you may not be able to move in that heavy armored vacc suit. Each -2 Con makes you more vulnerable to poisons or infections....hmmm....scratch making Con affected, actually.

Anyhow, I think I've rambled on long enough here....