(Mongoose) Darrians Preview

[aramis]

The snarky sniping has resulted in a few infractions and a warning.

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The general policy on the Ignore feature is that one is free to use it, but don't clutter threads with "I'm ignoring ___" nor "I'm leaving because of person ___" posts. It's rude, it's an open insult, and it's a violation of the rules.

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rather than reply to it in a snarky manner.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

How about I write something nice and positive?

Ah, ya see? This is how it's supposed to work. Mongoose came around looking for feedback, Bill responded with some clear and rather sober observations for the floor, and one of the authors comes back with a constructive follow-up of his own.

All of a sudden it's like friggin' High Tea with the Queen around here. Nice! Cue the fancy-pants violin quintet, please...

I don't know if that makes the book any more tantalising, but hopefully helps clarify a few of your observations.

Well, it helps boost my enthusiasm for the book. I admit that I was turned off by the artwork (I literally rolled my eyes at the TL6 microphone and the 'Dio' finger salutes), and the Entertainer career seemed like a waste of typeface. One of my worries has been that Mongoose's rapid production pipeline would wind up filling up the OTU with useless, nutrition-free puffery (much like DGP had done), and what I first saw in this book wasn't helping any.

I'm glad to say that your outline makes me want to go out of my way to find out more about the book. I still reserve the right to leaf through it before I buy, but I think it's highly likely that it will wind up in my collection nonetheless.

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't know if that makes the book any more tantalising, but hopefully helps clarify a few of your observations.

Pete,

It most certainly does.

I still consider the Entertainer career presented in the book as padding. Yes, there are some changes to the various tables and whatnot, but those changes could have presented as a template or lens which would be applied to the original career.

Of course the space required by a template/lens instead of a full career write-up wouldn't take up as much space. Padding is not a good thing, especially when you state some of the other submitted materials were left out.

Your description of the sections on Art and Recreation being "modest" may be a case of you and the other authors being modest. While we've been told that various Darrian art forms exist, Mongoose will be the first, apart from the sole example of flame sculpture, to actually show us those forms. This is a good thing.

As for the many deckplans and ship designs, those a very good things. We were told about the heralded Darrian TL16 squadron, then we were told it was basically a sham. The first specific Darrian ship design to appear, the TL16 "cruiser" in RSB, was a sham too. Now we've finally got some Darrian ships to mull over.

I, for one, am looking forward to the 400 dTon far trader you mentioned. The Confederation is "plugged" into to only one jump1 Main and the Sword Worlds sits astride that. Any "foreign" trade the Darrians engage in must be carried by vessels which can jump more than one parsec and, while canon has many examples of vessels which can do that, none of those vessels are Darrian. Again, we now have a selection of Darrian ships to mull over.

And I'm sure that 400 dTon far trader which is Better armoured for trade into risky areas is made to order for travelling in the Foreven Sector just next door.

Your preview has tipped the balance from "Meh" to "Interesting". Instead of getting the book "sooner or later", I'll now ask my FLGS to order it.

Isn't it amazing what a partial table of contents and a partial index can do? Makes me wonder if tables of content and index pages should be part of previews, don't you agree?


Regards,
Bill

P.S. Artwork always gets mentioned in these threads, but artwork has never been high on my list on concerns. First, I don't consider "artwork" to be "rules". That is a picture, rather than a schematic or a map, isn't going to tell me anything of importance.

Second, artists have their own concerns apart from writers. Art needs to be judged on it's own and not whether it adheres to a written description. For art, the written description is where the artist begins, it is not meant to be a constraint.

Schematics and maps are another matter entirely.

All this being said, there is one things which I dislike about the use art and that is when art is used as deliberate padding. While a full page piece is nice, something actually useful could have been there instead.

 

[rancke]

I, for one, am looking forward to the 400 dTon far trader you mentioned. The Confederation is "plugged" into to only one jump1 Main and the Sword Worlds sits astride that. Any "foreign" trade the Darrians engage in must be carried by vessels which can jump more than one parsec...

True. Though mains are overrated in the first place. Unless every one of the worlds in the chain has enough excess trade to support a couple of free traders per week, a main is not much better for free traders than if there were gaps (one-parsec gaps, that is) all over the place. Such 'no-trade' worlds are pretty much just as effective a barrier to jump-1 trade as a genuine gap. Jump-1 trade is superior only over distances of exactly one parsec. The moment your ship has to make two jumps to make a delivery, it loses out to jump-2 ships. Over a three parsec distance both lose out to jump-3 ships.


Hans

 

[rancke]

[*] The Darrian prehistory information, paradigm shifting discoveries, and current ban on archeological digs was nifty. The "Sweetness & Light" story of Darrian history found in CT's AM:8 was rather cloying, but I know of no one who seriously thought that was the whole story.

The problem I have is that in this new version it isn't even part of the story. Yes, we've had Big Reveals before; the Aslan not having invented the jump drive for themselves is the one that's usually trotted forward as an example. But the original story wasn't changed retroactively; it was still what most people believed (what most Imperials believed, anyway -- all the alien modules are written either in Imperial viewpoint or Authorial Voice) and the New Truth was revealed as a big surprise.

Here we simply have the original story flat out contradicted. No mention of the "Sweetness and Light Version", as you call it, and no giving "The Real Story" as a Ref's Info, a Deep Dark Secret that the PCs can stumble over and get into trouble about. Oh, sorry. Yes, it is portrayed as a secret -- an open secret among historians that has been kept from the public for over 200 years. Very tight-mouthed class, Darrian historians. And a good thing too, because people really worry about what their ancestors did 300,000 years ago. Revealing this secret could seriously damage the collective psyche of the Darrian people. Or at least provoke a few letters to the editor.

One thing I'm really having trouble swallowing is the notion that the orchards were lost in the first place. You'd think they'd show up as bull-eyes to arial observation. Even if all five firepits had run down, instead of only one of them (or was it two?), as the original material established.

I know that I'm biased, but I really think I would have disliked this retcon even if I hadn't come up with an explanation for why the Ancient Darrians lived in relative harmony in their orchards.


Hans

 

[Pete Nash]

Here we simply have the original story flat out contradicted. No mention of the "Sweetness and Light Version", as you call it, and no giving "The Real Story" as a Ref's Info, a Deep Dark Secret that the PCs can stumble over and get into trouble about.

The 'sweetness and light' version is in the Darrian History chapter where it belongs. What you see in the preview is from the Darrians Secrets chapter.

Revealing this secret could seriously damage the collective psyche of the Darrian people. Or at least provoke a few letters to the editor.

The preview cuts off before this point is covered.

In addition the Darrians may not have been nice folks even in the original AM8.

The fact that Darrians lived for so long in such a densely populated area had profound influences on their genetic heritage. The Darrian experience was to weed out those genetic factors that did not fit in with dense populations. Troublemakers, neurotics, psychotics, and others whose activities were aggravated by close, continuing proximity to others were eliminated from the population.

Emphasis mine, but the word 'eliminated' does lend itself to interpretation.

One thing I'm really having trouble swallowing is the notion that the orchards were lost in the first place. You'd think they'd show up as bull-eyes to arial observation. Even if all five firepits had run down, instead of only one of them (or was it two?), as the original material established.

The original flame pits were only 2km in diameter, a small enough feature to begin with. After 200,000 years there is no saying how much the area would have weathered, flooded, been filled in by detritus, etc. For example, many parts of Roman London are 10m deep under a mere 2,000 years of human waste and building material. 200,000 is a long, long time geologically.

 

[rancke]

The 'sweetness and light' version is in the Darrian History chapter where it belongs. What you see in the preview is from the Darrians Secrets chapter.


The preview cuts off before this point is covered.

Ah. That's different. Fair enough.

In addition the Darrians may not have been nice folks even in the original AM8.

Certainly not. But they were different. In the Traveller Universe, we have fifty different strains of humans, and they're all just like us (except maybe for all the noble warrior races :devil. And the Zhodani. And... OK, most of them are just like us (Mentally, that is). And then we have the Darrians, who aren't. I think it's a pity to take that away from them. But maybe you didn't do that. I suppose I should reserve my judgement until I've seen the whole product.

Emphasis mine, but the word 'eliminated' does lend itself to interpretation.

I admit that the genetic disposition story never worked for me. But I still think a different explanation (even the "nobody knows why" 'explanation') for the same result would be better than a different result.

The original flame pits were only 2km in diameter, a small enough feature to begin with. After 200,000 years there is no saying how much the area would have weathered, flooded, been filled in by detritus, etc. For example, many parts of Roman London are 10m deep under a mere 2,000 years of human waste and building material. 200,000 is a long, long time geologically.

No more than that? I hadn't realized that. Still, arial surveillance at TL 7 is able to achieve a better resolution than that. At TL 12/13, it should be better yet, shouldn't it?

OTOH, I suppose it's not really that big a deal. I've swallowed bigger Traveller camels before. OK, forget I spoke .


Hans

 

[MongooseMatt]

Isn't it amazing what a partial table of contents and a partial index can do? Makes me wonder if tables of content and index pages should be part of previews, don't you agree?

The order has already been given to the chap who sorts out the previews...

 

[Jame]

I will at some point, money and desire to put in effort permitting, buy a copy.

The order has already been given to the chap who sorts out the previews...

Hopefully you whipped him to emphasize the point! :devil:

But just to make sure he pays attention...

 

[Ishmael]

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!

The fact that Darrians lived for so long in such a densely populated area had profound influences on their genetic heritage. The Darrian experience was to weed out those genetic factors that did not fit in with dense populations. Troublemakers, neurotics, psychotics, and others whose activities were aggravated by close, continuing proximity to others were eliminated from the population.

So why did they live in densely populated areas for long periods of time?
Recorded a short time before the Maghiz hit......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iesXUFOlWC0

Weeding out 'bad' genetic factors and rebuilding after the extinction event?
http://www.eugenics.net/
http://www.eugenics.net/papers/miller1.html
http://www.eugenics.net/papers/caseforeugenics.html

Bwahahahahahah
Darrian != nice

 

[rancke]

So why did they live in densely populated areas for long periods of time?

Because they had everything they needed right where they lived, in the orchards. According to the text, each orchard was capable of supporting a million people, but in all five orchards the Darrians stopped multiplying when they reached 100,000. I wrote that the trees had one kind of leaf that proved contraceptive when chewed; Pete says they started killing each others off[*]. (But why would they need infanticide, mass murder, AND cannibalism? Surely one or the other would suffice).

[*] Apologies if there are nuances I haven't picked up on yet, Pete. It's difficult to reserve judgement until I have all the facts .​

Recorded a short time before the Maghiz hit......

All this supposedly happened between 200,000 and 300,000 years before the Maghiz. (And just for the record, no, I don't believe the "genetic weeding" explanation works).

Weeding out 'bad' genetic factors and rebuilding after the extinction event?

Long, long, long before the extinction event.


Hans

 

[Pete Nash]

Because they had everything they needed right where they lived, in the orchards. According to the text, each orchard was capable of supporting a million people, but in all five orchards the Darrians stopped multiplying when they reached 100,000. I wrote that the trees had one kind of leaf that proved contraceptive when chewed; Pete says they started killing each others off[*]. (But why would they need infanticide, mass murder, AND cannibalism? Surely one or the other would suffice).

My premise was that with no natural predators and initially no diseases to keep population growth under control, the Darrians would multiply like rabbits in the Eden-like conditions. Ultimately they would face a situation where the orchards could no longer support the burgeoning numbers and they would be forced to make hard decisions.

I included a range of different, apparently nasty, consequences because we are talking about a period of a hundred thousand years. During that period populations must have expanded and crashed hundreds of times. The primitive gatherer societies probably evolved and experimented with many methods of population control before the flame pits finally failed and the Darrians were force to move out into their world.

Now I used the phrase 'apparently' nasty, since concepts like infanticide or geriatricide have been used by humans throughout our history, and have been morally acceptable when the situation demanded such sacrifices. It is only our modern pre-conceptions which paint these methods in such a black light.

The early Darrians were not evil, simply pragmatic. Neither are the Darrians pacifists. They have had war since they were first transplanted, and according to AM8 continued to have wars amongst themselves even up to -10,000. Their current social tolerance and political conformity has been a hard earned lesson, first begun with their "early genetic culling of unusuals within the Orchards" and continued with each self-inflicted disaster their culture has suffered.

[*] Apologies if there are nuances I haven't picked up on yet, Pete. It's difficult to reserve judgement until I have all the facts .

No problem Hans.

 

[Ishmael]

a total pop of ~500,000 in an area that could support 10 times that number doesn't sound very densely populated to me. And what was it about the flame pits that prevented the overpopulation from simply leaving and settling elsewhere on the world?

I guess I'll have to wait until the book hits a store I can get to. ( I'm old fashioned...I want to thumb through it and see if it suites me before deciding if I'll buy it. )

Sorry, but with only the 2 or 3 snippets of text I've been shown from earlier writings, I prefer my scenario. It also fits better with the wildly implausible description of the maghiz solar flare effects given in the traveller wiki.

oh well...clearly my ideas run counter to the mainstream, so I'll keep them to myself from this point forward.

 

[Pete Nash]

And what was it about the flame pits that prevented the overpopulation from simply leaving and settling elsewhere on the world?

The orchards are literal gardens of eden which provided all the food, shelter and warmth the transplanted proto-Darrians needed for life, probably leading to a very indolent lifestyle they kept for millennia.

Outside of the orchards was a strange world, extremely arid in comparison with Earth. Fresh water limited to run offs from the high mountain ranges which segregated each basin from the others. Shelter would have to be found or built, and as (ex) hunter-gatherers the proto-Darrians would be forced to constantly move in order to find food.

Thus life must have been frighteningly hard for those who went exploring, were exiled as part of social eugenics, or simply fled civil strife. Could they have survived? Some might of course. However those Darrians who'd spent tens of generations living in the orchards had probably lost much of their hunter-gathering knowledge, so the deaths from starvation or exposure could have been a stark warning to those that remained behind.

In addition, early Darrians may have by then developed a pathological need for society, and being cut off from their (now) naturally high density populations may have undermined their will to survive. Perhaps the earliest exiles vindictively preyed upon explorers or settlers, but could not retake the orchards due to the vast disparity in numbers - remaining as scary bogeymen. Who knows?

Would exiles or refugees have been happy to leave the home provided to them by the god Onsorik, where life was as simple as plucking fruit from the nearest tree? I doubt it. Humans always choose the easiest route after all, we are by nature lazy creatures. Heck, in AM8 the Darrians don't even discover how to make fire until the flame pits burn out.

 

[rancke]

Outside of the orchards was a strange world, extremely arid in comparison with Earth. Fresh water limited to run offs from the high mountain ranges which segregated each basin from the others.

Not extremely aird. A hydrography score of 3 is enough to allow a world Terran-prime status (size, atmosphere, and gravity permitting). Each basin had an ocean. In fact, Darrian has just as much seashore as Terra .

Shelter would have to be found or built, and as (ex) hunter-gatherers the proto-Darrians would be forced to constantly move in order to find food.

Thus life must have been frighteningly hard for those who went exploring, were exiled as part of social eugenics, or simply fled civil strife. Could they have survived? Some might of course. However those Darrians who'd spent tens of generations living in the orchards had probably lost much of their hunter-gathering knowledge, so the deaths from starvation or exposure could have been a stark warning to those that remained behind.

Humans are very adaptable. I believe that if there had been any significant movement away from the orchards, some would have survived and eventually prospered. That they didn't suggests to me that life in the orchards were distinctly lacking in factors that would drive people away from them. However, that could be accomplished with infanticide and/or geriaticide. No need for civil strife if everyone has access to resources that could keep 10 people alive.


Hans

 

[Pete Nash]

Not extremely aird. A hydrography score of 3 is enough to allow a world Terran-prime status (size, atmosphere, and gravity permitting). Each basin had an ocean. In fact, Darrian has just as much seashore as Terra .

Extremely arid to me then! My apologies for using a subjective adverb.

I was envisioning a world with proportionately less than half the liquid water available on Earth, of which almost all is located in the sump filling sea at the centre of each basin.

In AM8 the Darrians are described as being adapted for water conservation, their metabolism fluctuating to substitute for "profuse sweating", but then goes on to say that the changes are not as severe as desert creatures on other worlds. That seems to indicate that the basins are arid enough for a significant genetic change, but are not actually deserts.

Ah well, hydrology is a complex subject. You can have a bone dry Egyptian coastline next to the Red Sea on one hand and Ireland on the other.

 

[rancke]

I was envisioning a world with proportionately less than half the liquid water available on Earth, of which almost all is located in the sump filling sea at the centre of each basin.

The first part is true, but the water will evaporate from the seas, precipitate out at the mountains, and provide streams and rivers all the way to the sea. Obviously, there will be much larger desert and arid and dry regions than on Earth, but just as you can find deserts on watery Earth, you would find lush tropical surfer paradises on dryish Darrian.

In AM8 the Darrians are described as being adapted for water conservation, their metabolism fluctuating to substitute for "profuse sweating", but then goes on to say that the changes are not as severe as desert creatures on other worlds. That seems to indicate that the basins are arid enough for a significant genetic change, but are not actually deserts.

Or the adaptation was geneered into them by Onsorik. Since all Darrians seem to have the same adaptations, it seems likely that they were introduced before the population was split up rather than evolved independently in five separate populations.

Ah well, hydrology is a complex subject. You can have a bone dry Egyptian coastline next to the Red Sea on one hand and Ireland on the other.

Exactly.

"T-prime - Terran prime worlds are worlds similar to the Terran standard type; to be classed as such, much prized as habitations, the following apply: Size 6-9, Atmosphere 4-9, Hydrography 3-9, Gravity 0.6-1.1G." [Leviathan, p. 19]​

Hans

 

[Qstor2]

OED lists it as a variant of grisly so it can be used that way. I wouldn't use both in the same material to describe the same thing though.

This is off topic of the thread kinda but I'm sure the OED isn't regularly used by editors on both sides of the pond. There has to be some English language standard for word usage other than the OED.

Mike

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I know that darrian girl was asleep in my bathtub at one point, and it's awesome. I love the design of that scout, too. Going to check it out.

 

[atpollard]

This is off topic of the thread kinda but I'm sure the OED isn't regularly used by editors on both sides of the pond. There has to be some English language standard for word usage other than the OED.

Mike

I use Webser's Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language as THE authority in the US, but I'm not a publisher.