Mongoose OTU vs. GDW/DGP OTU

[Quint]

First, I am a massive, massive fan of the GDW/DGP OTU (the Rebellion and Virus, meh, but DGP pre-MT was great, great stuff IMO) but I've been digesting the Mongoose Third Imperium works and I have to say that the setting seems more... fun?

That isn't quite the term I'm looking for - but in the GDW/DGP supplements the players often seem like the Greek Chorus or otherwise "witnesses to history" - and despite the existence of the Ancients, the Third Imperium very much is presented as the utter dominating technological, military, and economic power of the universe. We've talked a fair amount about the lack of "frontiers" in the OTU but there is also a similar lack of mystery or wonder or even a sense of Arthur C. Clarke style "magic".

I think that is what drew me to Paranoia Press and their two sectors - it felt like science fiction, not "humans in rubber suits on a soundstage with a bad blue screen" which is often where the OTU seemed to end up despite it's best efforts because there seemed to be so much emphasis on the 3I being "biggest, best, and baddest" of the empires out there.

I was just reading the Mongoose Aslan book and their treatment of the Trojan Reaches - and suddenly it seemed like a very cool place to be adventuring. Without giving spoilers they managed to turn much of the established canon several degrees, give it a new spin, and give the GM lots of very cool mini-settings that let the players be, well, "players" in a way that I can't really remember from a GDW/DGP scenario save maybe the "Reveal the Aslan are a Minor Race!" adventure that threw everyone into a tizzy.

I see the same stuff in their treatment of "Secrets of the Ancients" or even modules like "Tripwire" where the universe seems to be full of mystery, even in areas where the Imperium has been settled for centuries. All of the Mongoose Alien modules seem to be sprinkled with this sort of thing, plus their adventures.

I guess I'm wondering if other people have noticed the same sort of difference? Have thoughts as to why it is there? Think I'm off my rocker?

D.

 

[DickNervous]

While the jury is still debating whether or not you are indeed "off your rocker", I can say that I too am impressed with the way the Trojan Reach is handled by Mongoose. Granted I haven't played CT since the 80s and skipped over everything between that and MgT, but I agree with your analysis of the Reach.

I am running the Pirates of Drinax campaign and I am really enjoying the setting and the freedom it provides for the players. They can be anything from good little Imperial Citizens to chaotic evil slavers to business-like "Pirate Lords" and everything in between.

Mongoose has made the sector a frontier. You have the Third Imperium on one side, Aslan on the other, a handful of smaller political entities, and a ton of non-aligned worlds that range from lifeless rocks to high tech meccas.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Er, I don't recall there being a DGP before MT. I thought MT was DGPs "thing" when they started publishing Traveller stuff.

 

[creativehum]

Er, I don't recall there being a DGP before MT. I thought MT was DGPs "thing" when they started publishing Traveller stuff.

DGP got its start publishing Classic Traveller material back in '85 with The Travelle's Digest.

From what I understand from an interview with Fugate, the man who bought out the company has not kept the old material in print. Thus not part of the canon. Thus, apparently, forgotten by some.

 

[Quint]

DGP got its start publishing Classic Traveller material back in '85 with The Travelle's Digest.

From what I understand from an interview with Fugate, the man who bought out the company has not kept the old material in print. Thus not part of the canon. Thus, apparently, forgotten by some.

The sad tale of DGP and it's reprint status is discussed at length elsewhere on the forum. It's canonicity is up to MM and, to the best of my recollection, has nothing to do with it being in print or not, and it still remains, largely, canon.

The issues is that as new canon is written for Mongoose and T5, the DGP materials are slowly overwritten with new canon (the Trojan Reaches having some spectacular examples - which actually sparked this post).

D.

 

[Quint]

While the jury is still debating whether or not you are indeed "off your rocker", I can say that I too am impressed with the way the Trojan Reach is handled by Mongoose. Granted I haven't played CT since the 80s and skipped over everything between that and MgT, but I agree with your analysis of the Reach.

I am running the Pirates of Drinax campaign and I am really enjoying the setting and the freedom it provides for the players. They can be anything from good little Imperial Citizens to chaotic evil slavers to business-like "Pirate Lords" and everything in between.

Mongoose has made the sector a frontier. You have the Third Imperium on one side, Aslan on the other, a handful of smaller political entities, and a ton of non-aligned worlds that range from lifeless rocks to high tech meccas.

Yeah, I tend to agree with the complaints that the OTU has no "frontier" but then I read the book and I was amazed, "Well, there might not be a frontier exactly, but this gives a great, balkanized area that gives even more opportunity" My players can travel in any direction and find all sorts of interesting stuff that can be as amazing or as mundane as we mutually care to make it.

D.

 

[creativehum]

The sad tale of DGP and it's reprint status is discussed at length elsewhere on the forum. It's canonicity is up to MM and, to the best of my recollection, has nothing to do with it being in print or not, and it still remains, largely, canon.

The issues is that as new canon is written for Mongoose and T5, the DGP materials are slowly overwritten with new canon (the Trojan Reaches having some spectacular examples - which actually sparked this post).

D.

Sorry if I misspoke there. I was going from the Fugate interview. I tracked down the threads you referenced. And now I have no idea why the DGP materials aren't being reprinted.*

That said, my main point was that DGP did CT material... Which a lot of people don't know about. In part, I think, because it is no longer available.

*By the way, I don't need to know and don't really care. Which is me saying: Don't derail the thread on this point on my behalf. Really, I'm fine not knowing, and canon isn't a thing I care about.

 

[aramis]

DGP got its start publishing Classic Traveller material back in '85 with The Travelle's Digest.

From what I understand from an interview with Fugate, the man who bought out the company has not kept the old material in print. Thus not part of the canon. Thus, apparently, forgotten by some.

Only partially right.

DGP materials are still canon, but the text is not owned by Marc, so they cannot be reprinted by FFE, and while Roger owns the text he's not got (and is not seeking) a license, and isn't particularly willing to cooperate in getting them reprinted.

Note that DGP was one of the few licenses to survive past 1985...

Also note: MT was written by DGP, under an outsourcing deal, based upon the exceptional quality of their CT supplements.

Marc and Don are working to get Roger to agree to a reasonable deal. But, given recent law changes, if Roger doesn't, Joe and Gary can recover their copyrights in about 4 more years.

 

[creativehum]

As for the OP:

I'm in awe of the Third Imperium as a piece of creative endeavor.

However, in terms of a setting for RPG play, the overall effect always seemed to be, "Be Amazed... But Don't Touch."

My own instinct is that many design decisions for the Third Imperium were made with the idea "We can't let some group's players ever, ever screw our setting up." Whether or not that was purposeful I don't know. But that certainly was the result. And here's my take on settings: They are there for PCs to influence and alter and change. Otherwise, as Quint notes, they end up being tourists.

I haven't read any of the material Quint mentioned from Mongoose. But I just ordered some of it and am looking forward to reading it.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Only partially right.

DGP materials are still canon, but the text is not owned by Marc, so they cannot be reprinted by FFE, and while Roger owns the text he's not got (and is not seeking) a license, and isn't particularly willing to cooperate in getting them reprinted.

Note that DGP was one of the few licenses to survive past 1985...

Also note: MT was written by DGP, under an outsourcing deal, based upon the exceptional quality of their CT supplements.

Marc and Don are working to get Roger to agree to a reasonable deal. But, given recent law changes, if Roger doesn't, Joe and Gary can recover their copyrights in about 4 more years.

Oh good. I'll only be in my 50s.

 

[aramis]

As for the OP:

I'm in awe of the Third Imperium as a piece of creative endeavor.

However, in terms of a setting for RPG play, the overall effect always seemed to be, "Be Amazed... But Don't Touch."

My own instinct is that many design decisions for the Third Imperium were made with the idea "We can't let some group's players ever, ever screw our setting up." Whether or not that was purposeful I don't know. But that certainly was the result. And here's my take on settings: They are there for PCs to influence and alter and change. Otherwise, as Quint notes, they end up being tourists.

I haven't read any of the material Quint mentioned from Mongoose. But I just ordered some of it and am looking forward to reading it.

A good GM keeps them from changing stuff too much. A great one makes them cause some of the published movements in canon.

A good GM knows that Canon only exists in play as backstory - players can, and some may want to, prevent the "big history" - it shouldn't be easy, but it should be doable. Especially if you have someone with Soc E+...

the same is true for any canon-driven setting. Star Wars, Star Trek, Traveller, The Forgotten Realms, the Warhammer World, the 40K milky way galaxy, the Starship Troopers setting (of the movies), the Slammers universe, the Dresdenverse, the Firefly 'Verse... once play begins, anything past that point is merely "unless the PC's cause otherwise" and/or "unless I can think of something more useful."

Truth be told, Traveller works best when the OTU is either a starting point, or absent altogether; a central but remote empire of some kind with nobles (a nod to Pournelle's Codominion setting) is a presumed start, even in CT 1E.

 

[Enoff]

I think what bothers me the most about OTU is the whole Grandfather thing and its closing the possibility of millions of years of prior civilizations. I think this was a huge plot mistake. I love Andre Norton's treatment of forerunner civilizations and the exploring of unknown alien ruins. I know the Canonistas (*****) will disagree with me but its one factor that makes the OTU a very boring vanilla universe to me.

 

[rancke]

I think what bothers me the most about OTU is the whole Grandfather thing and its closing the possibility of millions of years of prior civilizations. I think this was a huge plot mistake. I love Andre Norton's treatment of forerunner civilizations and the exploring of unknown alien ruins. I know the Canonistas (*****) will disagree with me but its one factor that makes the OTU a very boring vanilla universe to me.

This Canonista certainly agrees with you. Restricting forerunners to just the Ancients was a big mistake.


Hans

 

[DonM]

Note that the Ancients as presented by the canon texts were never intended as limits for your games. I'm continually astounded when I read about people feeling limited by the OTU because something isn't in the canon texts. It's YOUR GAME, you can add elements.

And the Mongoose vs GDW/DGP OTU (vs SJG ATU) is really a bunch of ado about nothing. It's really the same universe through different eyes.

The possibilities of the Final War not being Final, and Grandfather being somewhat untruthful, etc... none of those were ruled out by the canon material.

 

[whulorigan]

Precursor Civilizations

I think what bothers me the most about OTU is the whole Grandfather thing and its closing the possibility of millions of years of prior civilizations. I think this was a huge plot mistake. I love Andre Norton's treatment of forerunner civilizations and the exploring of unknown alien ruins. I know the Canonistas (*****) will disagree with me but its one factor that makes the OTU a very boring vanilla universe to me.

Well technically, the OTU does allow for millions of years of precursor civilizations - it is just that those civilizations never independently developed Jump-Drive. They may have used Generation Ships, Sleeper Ships, or Relativistic STL-travel if they had a multi-stellar presence. And those civilizations may never have overlapped (time-wise) with the Ancients.

One or two have been very briefly mentioned in canon materials, IIRC (including the Kursae and one race in Zarushagar Sector), and MT specifically mentions their existence without naming specific races:

MT: Referee's Manual, p.9 - sidebar

THE FIRST STARFARERS
We place the age of the universe at more than fifteen billion years. The oldest stars in Charted Space are dim red dwarfs some ten billion years old. Intelligent life first appeared in Charted Space more than two billion years ago. Intelligent life first began sublight travel between the stars more than a billion years ago. Short-lived beings found sublight travel tedious and frustrating and contented themselves with confinement to a few star systems. Longer lived races ranged far and wide using generation ships, cold sleep, and even electronic personality transfers.

The first jump drive was an unrealized dream until only 300,000 years ago. By a fluke of evolution, a single supergenius was born to the pastoral Droyne, and under his leadership this ancient race travelled extensively throughout a region nearly 1000 parsecs across. The race worked wonders throughout Charted Space and then destroyed themselves in a wide-ranging war that shattered worlds and destroyed civilizations.

Note that this only has reference to Charted Space - it says nothing about other less-explored areas of the Galaxy.

 

[DonM]

The sad tale of DGP and it's reprint status is discussed at length elsewhere on the forum. It's canonicity is up to MM and, to the best of my recollection, has nothing to do with it being in print or not, and it still remains, largely, canon.

The issues is that as new canon is written for Mongoose and T5, the DGP materials are slowly overwritten with new canon (the Trojan Reaches having some spectacular examples - which actually sparked this post).

The Mongoose Trojan Reach material is based on the same foundation the DGP material was (Mike Jackson's Third Imperium fanzine writeups of TR). Mongoose has been more creative with some of the more fantastic elements of that material, but the foundations are all in the DGP materials.

As to "overwriting DGP", more often than not we do try to keep it canon, but as time rolls forward, change should occur. The OTU cannot stay 1105 forever.

 

[whulorigan]

FTL Precursor Races

Also, as an IMTU consideration for those who wish to remain reasonably close to canon:

There is nothing that says that some precursor race didn't invent some alternate form of FTL-Drive (say one that is significantly inferior to Jump-Drive). Perhaps something like the 2300AD Stutterwarp, that operates at 1.0% the efficiency of the standard 2300AD Drive. That still gives you the possibility of creating a fairly expansive precursor empire within reasonable travel time-frames, and yet does not promote them to the highly subjective category of a "Major-Race" (because it is not a Jump-Drive, and it is inferior to Jump as well).

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Sure, why not? An old RPG FTL: 2448 had different FTL drives using different technologies and with varying efficiency. Anything that achieves >1.0c makes the stars a little more available.

Another, ugh, crazy idea is the one postulated in the novel Lockstep where all of the empire shuts down after a month of operation and lets STL ships go to and from star systems. Not a great idea, but what other choice do people have when you have no FTL.

Finally, there is always Niven's Known Space prior humans to acquiring FTL where they just did without.

 

[whulorigan]

Niven's Known Space Hyperdrives

Finally, there is always Niven's Known Space prior humans to acquiring FTL where they just did without.

Niven's Known Space is also another illustration of the principal of multiple FTL strategies:

The Thrintun (Ancient Slavers) used the Tnuctipun Hyperdrive, which was not clearly understood in the "Known Space" era, but exploited the Hyperwave Uncertainty Principle. It required entry into Hyperspace at about 0.93c, after which the transit time between hyperspace entry-point and hyperspace exit-point was probabilistic.

During the Known Space Era, Earth and other contemporary species used the Outsider Hyperdrive, which had two well defined "hypervelocities": Quantum I @ 3 days/lightyear, and Quantum II @ 1.25 minutes/lightyear, both of which required that hyperspace entry could only safely occur well outside a gravity well.

 

[rancke]

I've been thinking about coming up with an FLT drive for Traveller that was inferior to the jump drive but correspondingly cheap, allowing player groups to own tramp ships that didn't requite investments in the tens of millions of credits. That it takes a month instead of a week to cross a parsec wouldn't affect a campaign significantly -- the referee just says "A month later..." instead of "A week later...".

However, I've never gotten around to the number crunching.


Hans