Nature of the frontier

[BetterThanLife]

Now the Imperium, by the 1000s is pretty stagnant. Slowly creepiung across Gateway, Slowly creeping into the OutRim Void/Trojan Reach. But little organized exploration.

Aslan going looking for new territory, now there is a reason for an exploration campaign and there is lots of space for them to travel in. Similarily, if you want to run a Humanocentric campaign, you can go Coreward or Spinward from the Zhodane Consulate (and in Canon they have expeditions going coreward) Or the Solomani, they have a huge border to Rimward. And because tehy are hemmed in on three sides have all sorts of incentive to expand Rimward. (Though there will always be pressure to retake Terra....)

The Hivers, driven by curiosity might commission exploration to trailing and rimward.

But if you want to be from the Imperium you can always head Spinward from the Five Sisters Subsectoryou have two sectors of "client states" and the Coreward end of the Zhodani Consulate with the Vanguard Reaches and The Beyond Sectors Rimward of you then you are off into the great unknown. Or of course the Imperium is mounting expeditions Coreward. (Is that on the Coreward side of the Vargr Extents?) THat could be an adventure itself getting through the Vargr Extents before beginning the mission.

Has anyone actually mapped The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches? (Officially?)

What would you use for an exploration Cruise? An AHL? A Leviathan? Certainly more than a Type S.

There is plenty of Frontier available in the OTU, it just might be a bit farther than you actually wanted to go.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by robject:
My preference is to wipe out the data directly Spinward of the Imperium: put the edge on the Spinward Marches. Shift the Zhodani coreward and trailing, pushing them over into Gvurrdon a bit, and greatly shrink the Aslan presence in Troy -- maybe a rift in Troy might help there (don't know how to best manage the Ihatei incursions, haven't thought enough about it).

OK, spinward works for me. The only thing really affected then are the Floriani and the Aslan colonies. Not a big deal. (Personally, I would move the Floriani, but either way works.)

Heck, we can even grandfather in Alanzar and Raschev, since the bugs are kinda cool.

 

[daryen]

As I mentioned before, yes, you can use the Zhodani or Solomani to do exploration based settings. I even know how to do the Solomani. And if you are willing to go non-human, the Aslan and Vargr have lots and lots of frontier to take advantage of.

But I still want the Imperium to have that chance, too. The Imperium is what we are given as the base setting, and the base setting should have real frontier, too.

And, since I am being demanding

, robject is correct: I want it along the Spinward Marches. The Marches is supposed to be the frontier section of the Imperium, so let it be such. Boxing it in at least two sectors deep in all directions still grates on me.

 

[Malenfant]

What would you use for an exploration Cruise? An AHL? A Leviathan? Certainly more than a Type S.

A Scout Cruiser (see EA#5) or a Pythea Exploratory Cruiser from GT:First In (which seems to do the same job, but is bigger at 3000 dt), since those are made for just that sort of thing. And make sure you cart along some Donosevs too!

 

[flykiller]

What would you use for an exploration Cruise?

http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pictures/lewis/lewis.gif

 

[BetterThanLife]

Now see I think I would prefer the Bright Light. Though I think I would retain the Marine contingent. After all true exploration has to include the guys in Red Shirts.

 

[aramis]

The only "Real" frontier IMO is the Islands. They barely can reacch each other, and to top it all, they CAN'T reach the imperium except by calibration points (except unde TNE and MT, with the reduced jump fuel requirements... 2J4 is doable under MT, and can actually turn a small profit).

The Imperium has too-few rift-edges.

Then again, my favorite sectors are the Judges Guild 4... a domain sized chunk. I wish they'd done just a bit more with the danin and the other 4 races they mentioned, but I can cope.

 

[LordVince]

Well, now, wait a minute. There's Canon, and then there's Canon....

An alternative way to look for what you want is to consider changing the Era you adventure in. Think about it... Aslan intruding near the Spinward Marches was just mentioned. WHEN does this happen? Sometime in the 1100's, yes? And the mention of Foreven sector being defined...WHEN? You want a "small Imperium"? Well, how big was the Imperium in Year 20?

And don't bring up the "yeah, but all those planets had already been catalogued!" argument. The Long Night lasted @ 2000 years. Interstellar Travel almost completely DISAPPEARED during that time. I don't buy that anyone trying to hold onto their Tech Base would waste valuable computer space on the terabytes of data that the First Survey gathered. In some "lost", specific purpose facility, yes. But not anywhere else.

And for that matter, consider the Long Night! 2000 years, with very little recorded history. What "pocket" Empires may have risen and fallen in that time? How many short-lived "Third" Imperiums may have begun, only to collapse after a couple of centuries, before the Sylean attempt actually did it?

What I'm saying is, in an earlier Era, these "frontiers" you speak of DID exist. To the folks "living" in those Eras -- your Players -- everything beyond those "frontiers" is NEW, so, for your TU just MAKE IT SO! Only used ESTABLISHED, "canon" data for the worlds "inside" your frontier, and go wild with changing the data/UWP/locations of everything OUTSIDE these frontiers!

 

[LordVince]

OOPS! I thought I was "previewing post", but I hit "Add"...

Now, an interesting side idea for going this route is that a series of fairly short Supplements could be produced for a variety of Eras.

All that they would need to lay out is a few Basics -- average Imperial Tech Level, maximum Jump capability of the Imperial Navy for the time, things like that. And this would assume you were using the early days of the Sylean "Third Imperium" as your setting. This could just as easilly be done for the early days of the Zira Sirku -- or even the early Terran Expansion, pre-Contact with the Zira Sirku. Or even the chaotic Final Days of the Rule of Man?

And again, what about the Long Night? A Long Night setting could be an interesting "variant" on the TNE concept, yes? A post-collapse, exploration & recovery era? Sure, in a Cononical Universe, a Long Night/TNE setting is doomed to ultimate failure -- but that doesn't mean that it couldn't provide a handful of "centuries" of good gaming material....right?

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

If a Frontier is desired without deleteing Canon, then besides changing eras, what about just claiming a sector located jump-1 or jump-2 above or below the main sector map? Plenty of room outside the map plane.

Personally, I'm liking the idea of players exploring empty hexes and finding oddball worlds in intersteller space. There's plenty of room in th empty, after all.

 

[kafka47]

Daryen,

I guess you never saw the supplement that was meant for Deep Space exploration beyond Chartered Space.

I thought that I posted it on this board somewhere, as I took it off the HIWG CD ROM which was to lay the basis of the DGP product taking you into the unknown. But, I don't know why you writing off the Zhodani, Vargr & Solomani explorations of the deep beyond.

Imagine being a Zhodani Prole scout just on the edge of the Empress Wave phenomena circa 1000. Your bosses (the Nobles & Intendants) have gone mad. You are determined to push further and try to locate the source of the phenomena. Along the way, you meet many starfaring civilizations (save no jumpdrive...maybe they even have Shutterwarp or are using Ancient transmatter portals). Pretty soon you find the Consulate so far away and you begin with your comrades develop a new sense of individuality. You march back like Hannabal just in around circa 1116 from the other side of the wave. Together you create a new Consulate based upon the rule of the Proles...at least, in one sector.

 

[daryen]

kafka,

No, I have never seen that supplement. As I have mentioned, I am quite confortable running a campaign on the rimward edge of the Solomani. I understand all of that.

But my lament (for a lament it is; I know there will be nothing changed) is that there is no such frontier for the Imperium. And there should have been.

Why the fixation on the Imperium? Because it is the default setting for which the game has been written. It seems a shame that I have to use either the Imperium information, or have a frontier. I can't have both. And that is quite unfortunate.

As for a prole-run Zhodani state, we already have one in 1248. It's even mentioned in Bearers of the Flame.

 

[aramis]

A frontier requires a boundary that is hard to cross.

In traveller, this is usually a rift or break. In the first imperium, with J1 and later J2, many small clusters becomem isolated or double jump distance (hard to reach).

With J3 and 4, the bulk fo the imperium becomes reachable, as does the bulk of the known space; frontiers become political, not astrographic, for the most part. It is even possible to make 2J4 ships under HG. (They don't carry any cargo of note, tho'), and 3J4 under MT/TNE. So a 4 parsec easy limit, 8 hard, and 12 very hard (cargoless).

With J5 and 6, rifts need to be 7-12 parsecs to become hard, and 13+ Pc (70% fuel 2J6 under MT/TNE) to become truly barriers.

Real boundaries (in an impassability sense) are rare astrographic elements, especially if one can set up Calibration points.

Perhaps, the real frontier of traveller is Psionics and Jumpspace!

 

[robject]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What would you use for an exploration Cruise?

http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pictures/lewis/lewis.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Yowza! Wonderful!

 

[robject]

Good point Aramis. I think that's a good idea. Therefore, the Five Sisters sector probably lies to one side of a small rift, maybe 4 parsecs deep on the average.

** Hey, though, it looks like the Five Sisters has several non-Imperial worlds to begin with; therefore, I'd say there may be some rift to spinward, but not necessarily to rimward. **


Another good point in an earlier post was to pre-date the Classic Era by 100 years or so. That's a fix that (for instance) would help the Ihatei "problem" of 1116-1118 or so (if there is a problem, that is). But maybe I'd just break with canon some more and push the Ihatei back; maybe they pass by the uninhabited worlds and head for civilized space for the sake of honor and a greater workforce for their worlds. I dunno. Anyone have suggestions here?

Yep, I like the idea of moving the Zhodani coreward-trailing, wiping out everything in Foreven and thereabouts, and moving or wiping out almost everything due rimward of Glisten and Trin's Veil. Heck, I'd even be up for taking some of those rimward worlds in Glisten and Trin's Veil out of the Imperium and re-rolling them.

Opening up most of two sides of the Spinward Marches would make me feel a whole lot better.

 

[rancke]

Once, long ago (back in 1992) I worked with a few others to create a frontier for the Imperium in the Beyond sector. We used as much of the existing background as possible, but there's no denying that this is alternate universe

Eventually the project faded away, but we managed to get quite a bit done.

Here is a recap I wrote when I tried to revive the project back in 1997:

The area involved is Foreven, Beyond and Vanguard Reaches Sectors. The Beyond and Vanguard Reaches starmaps (from Paranoia Press) retains very little except the star positions and a few of the names. The starmap in _Vilani & Vargr_ of Foreven Sector were enlarged enough to make out which hex what star belongs to. Some mistakes were made (A map of Foreven was recently published in 'Imperial Lines'), but as quite a lot of work has already been done, I'd like to keep it that way. The political boundaries shown on the V&V map were worked out as well as possible. There's one 90-world realm stretching across 5 or 6 subsectors that is now known to be the 'Avalar Consulate', a client state of the Zhos. Paranoia Press had called their part of it 'Die Weltbund' (bad German for 'Federation of Worlds' (it should be 'Die Weltenbund')), and that's what we'll stick to. (A neutral 90-world state would have a lot less impact on the Spinward Marches than a Zhodani-friendly one). This federation is the 'staging area', the civilized provider of technology, R&R and patrons. We have a rough idea of the first 3 centuries of settlement (2nd to 4th after the Imperial Calendar), a sketchy timeline, names and UPPs for some of the worlds and some ideas about the dominant culture.

The maximum TL of Weltenbund is 13. We're working on the size of their fleet, and are considering various dodges to keep it smaller that TCS would have it.

As for the unknown frontier, the governments of roughly 7 subsectors of Vanguard Reaches and Beyond have been wiped out and THE NOMADS inflicted on them:

NOMAD DOMAIN: Area roughly comprised of subsectors H, K and L of VANGUARD REACHES and subsectors E, F, G and I of BEYOND. The area is dominated by a unique starfaring nomadic culture. Seven _hordes_ have divided the area's systems between them and lives by exhorting what they need from the planetary populations. If they encounter resistance they bomb a part of the offending planet down to TL 0, which usually makes the rest of the planet toe the line. They stay for a year or two in each system, and then continue on to the next system. Before they leave a system they destroy as much of the local manufacturing capacity as possible, to ensure that the system will not grow strong enough to defy them when they return in 15 or 20 years. Rumour has it that in the few cases where a planet has succeeded in keeping a horde at bay, word has been sent to other hordes which thereupon have sent their own ships to help, resulting in the complete defeat and rape of the planet in question.

HISTORY: The history of the Nomad Domain is not known in details. The area is believed to have been settled during the Ramshakle Empire and to have lost all knowledge of jump technology when the Long Night fell. Sometime in the First Century one planet must have regained jump capability and started to explore the neighbouring worlds. Somehow some starships must have fallen into the hands of a primitive nomad tribe which used them to subjugate and plunder the original planet. They took slaves, and these slaves were forced to maintain the ships and build more.

An alternate theory has it that the nomads are the descendants of a beaten mercenary fleet from some unknown place that arrived in the area just as one or two planets were reaching TL 9. [Last update: 134-934]

The nomad jump technology is 11, enough to build jump-2 ships. Their military hardware TL is 12. They have BIG motherships that serves as home for family and slaves and as jump-tenders for their fighting ships, the "Claws". The motherships have TL 10 jump-1 engines (easier to maintain) and fuel tankage enough to make two consecutive jumps. The Claws are 10.000 T TL 12 non-starships. A third type of vessel is the 2000 T scouts with jump-2 and double tankage. These are the ones that make it hazardous to travel in the systems that the horde fleet is not in at the moment. They also raid the borders of their civilized neighbours occasionally.

The nomads must maintain a delicate balance. They need industrialized worlds to "milk", but they can't afford to let them get too industrialized. There's no reason, in fact, why worlds can't have a fairly high "cottage industry" TL. Worlds with low population and/or low TL would not be made the victims of a visit from the main fleet since they would not be able to provide what the fleet needs (These worlds would be subject to raids by the scout ships though). On the other hand, each world would be on it's own, so they would need a minimum number of people to make a viable population. Population level 5 perhaps?

The Domain will be opened by having Weltenbund (aided by the Imperium) trap and destroy most of the nomad fighting ships. Sufficient ships will survive to be able to trouble Weltenbund and PCs for many a year, but the intrepid merchant (or survey team) will be able to penetrate where no non-nomad has flown for a millennium. Furthermore, the nomads have served a a barrier to contact with the systems on the other side (the rest of Vanguard Reaches). Some knowledge has seeped around the edges, of course, but those systems are pretty much terra (or terras incognita. With the breaking of the nomads, merchants suddenly become interested in knowing about them.

Steve didn't like the Imperium involvement, but I need it in order to get my players involved. They are playing the crew of an Imperial Naval vessel.

We have a _very_ vague idea of making the Other Side into a kind of interstellar India, with TL 9-12 "natives" and East India Company type corporations maintaining their own military forces out there playing off one "native prince" against another, warring with rival corporations and bringing back wealth to the Imperium from "halfway across the world". (Bringing back what? I'll have to be valuable with a capital V to be worth sending ships on year-long trips...)

I have an 80k file where I've collated all the material we managed to finish. Anyone who is inteested is welcome to a copy.


Hans

 

[piperfan]

Originally posted by daryen:
But my lament (for a lament it is; I know there will be nothing changed) is that there is no such frontier for the Imperium. And there should have been.

Why the fixation on the Imperium? Because it is the default setting for which the game has been written. It seems a shame that I have to use either the Imperium information, or have a frontier. I can't have both. And that is quite unfortunate.

So what do you think of the various proposals here for gaming in a different era? It seems to me that "turning back the clock" creates a "hard edge" to the map just about anywhere you could want--as long as you choose the right historical era.

This, of course, doesn't work if you want to stick with "current" tech levels but if that's what's important then why not a variant, either moving around existing civilizations beyond the Imperium as has also been suggested or creating an entirely new "Third Imperium" with a different astrography?

There seem to have been lots of general solutions suggested here to the general problem but I'm getting the sense that there are details about the Imperium that you'd "like to keep" that haven't yet been described explicitly here.

 

[spank]

The idea of deadspace could create a frontier with a hard to cross boundry

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by piperfan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:Why the fixation on the Imperium? Because it is the default setting for which the game has been written. It seems a shame that I have to use either the Imperium information, or have a frontier. I can't have both. And that is quite unfortunate.

So what do you think of the various proposals here for gaming in a different era? It seems to me that "turning back the clock" creates a "hard edge" to the map just about anywhere you could want--as long as you choose the right historical era.
</font>[/QUOTE]I thought I answered the question in the above quote. What I want is a relevant, hard frontier in the default setting. I don't wanna be Solomani. I don't wanna "time travel". I don't wanna be Terran or Sylean or whatever. I wanna have a frontier I can get to in the default game setting.

I know it can't happen now, that is why I called it a lament. But that is what I want.

Since that isn't possible, however, I would most likely do one of the following three things:
- Move the setting to Aldebaran and make a pseudo-Firefly setting on the Solomani rimward border.
- Go back into history and work with the slowly recovering Old Earth Union during the middle of the Long Night.
- Explore one of the historical periods with either the Darrians or the Sword Worlds. The Darrians because I already explore this on my website. The Sword Worlds because someones already wrote a really good book.

 

[piperfan]

Originally posted by daryen:
I thought I answered the question in the above quote. What I want is a relevant, hard frontier in the default setting. I don't wanna be Solomani. I don't wanna "time travel". I don't wanna be Terran or Sylean or whatever. I wanna have a frontier I can get to in the default game setting.

I know it can't happen now, that is why I called it a lament. But that is what I want.

What is it about the "default setting" (I assume you mean the Third Imperium campaign here) that makes you want to combine it with a "genuine frontier"? Why wouldn't a variant setting with that "hard edge" just to spinward of the Marches scratch your itch? You could have Impies exploring their hearts out like Captain Kirk. . . .

Originally posted by daryen:
Since that isn't possible, however, I would most likely do one of the following three things:
- Move the setting to Aldebaran and make a pseudo-Firefly setting on the Solomani rimward border.
- Go back into history and work with the slowly recovering Old Earth Union during the middle of the Long Night.
- Explore one of the historical periods with either the Darrians or the Sword Worlds. The Darrians because I already explore this on my website. The Sword Worlds because someones already wrote a really good book.

I'm having a hard time understanding what it is these options have in common that makes them "second best" candidates to a Third Imperium setting with a "hard edge." Is it the idea that such a campaign would still "fit" with "official" expansions and follow-on products?