New GM Adventure Question

[Fritz_Brown]

But, Dragoner, what you're describing is not the OTU. It's not the OTU if the 3I doesn't follow its rules (as explicitly stated in canon).

Hans, my point was that someone could call in the Imps, having planted evidence (or, even the Imps plant evidence - they have their rules, but they aren't all angels). And, yes, it's a plot point. The referee would have to come up with a plausible explanation that fit his TU, but you could finagle getting the Imps involved even in the OTU - if you had the right evidence or the right influence. It might not stick, but they could get involved.

 

[Dragoner]

But, Dragoner, what you're describing is not the OTU. It's not the OTU if the 3I doesn't follow its rules (as explicitly stated in canon).

Sure it is the OTU, the Imperium is not a democracy, it is a prima facie military dictatorship with local commanders empowered to intercede in affairs as they see fit.

 

[aramis]

Sure it is the OTU, the Imperium is not a democracy, it is a prima facie military dictatorship with local commanders empowered to intercede in affairs as they see fit.

You really need to reread what's in JTAS... because you're pretty much DEAD WRONG on the mode by which the 3I operates in the OTU.

 

[Dragoner]

You really need to reread what's in JTAS... because you're pretty much DEAD WRONG on the mode by which the 3I operates in the OTU.

I was the one who pointed out the JTAS articles in the first place, if you want your Imperium to be some America in space, nobody is stopping you, but that isn't how it is represented.

This is how it is represented from Challenge 30, written by Marc:

The only thing that held the vast
interstellar empire together was the person of the emperor: the one individual to
whom all imperial citizens ultimately owed their loyalty.


"L'etat, c'est moi", not the rule of law and it goes on to describe relationships within the power structure:

The Imperium was held together, before the Emperor's death, by a web of
personal oaths and loyalties. Hereditary nobles held their offices directly from
the emperor; new appointees hold their offices as rewards for contributions or
good work. Potentially disloyal citizens were often granted nobility and co-opted
into support of the empire.

Sorry, but no democracy, no legislature, the Emperor as an autocrat who rules through decree and "nobles" without divine right who enforce those decrees by fleet control (military force); the same fleet control by which some emperors claimed the throne.

Local commanders would definitely be activist to the point of being rewarded for "contributions or good work."

 

[kilmore]

If the local government (warlord)'s house of state gets shot up by adventurers who then take off from a starship from out in the woods, the warlord can claim that he was attacked by interstellar pirates. The Imperial Navy could certainly intervene then.

 

[rancke]

And if the man on the Iridium Throne says that the provisions of the membership treaty is the rules?

Sure, until he changes his mind. For the good of the Imperium! L'etat, c'est moi!

But unless and until he changes his mind, the rules remain the same. Most importantly in this context, the rules remain in force for his subordinates, including the commander of the Imperial forces in the system.

It's true that the Emperor has delegated the power to change the rules in the face of a crisis to his high nobles, but I can't imagine they would do so frivolously; any breach of the rules authorized by a high noble must surely face a review by his superiors at a later date.

Member worlds are supposed to have internal autonomy.

Exactly, just as much as the Imperial commanders decide how much they shall have, at their will, who would be fool enough complain to anyways?

That's where you're wrong. The Imperial commanders are constrained by the rules and regulations they're operating under. The fact that the Emperor has the power to change those rules and regulations at a whim is irrelevant, especially as the Emperor is highly unlikely to do any such thing.

Any complaint will be directed at the world's high noble at first. It's one of his functions to deal with infringements on the Emperor's prerogatives within his demesne. If he's the one who authorized the breach of rules, the complaints goes to his superior high noble, and so on up to the Emperor himself.

Sure it is the OTU, the Imperium is not a democracy, it is a prima facie military dictatorship with local commanders empowered to intercede in affairs as they see fit.

The Imperium is an autocracy, not a military dictatorship. The people who are empowered to intercede as they see fit are the high nobles, and it's not as they see fit; it's as they believe the Emperor will approve after the fact.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I was the one who pointed out the JTAS articles in the first place, if you want your Imperium to be some America in space, nobody is stopping you, but that isn't how it is represented.

How about an Age of Sail Royal Britain in space? It's a pretty fair analogy. Autocracy, governors authorized to make decisions in the King's name within the guidelines of the King's instructions, armed forces under the command of those governors.

With appropriate differences, of course; similar problems may make for similar solutions, but the differences in the details will be many and varied.

This is how it is represented from Challenge 30, written by Marc:

The only thing that held the vast interstellar empire together was the person of the emperor: the one individual to whom all imperial citizens ultimately owed their loyalty.

Doesn't seem to be relevant to this discussion. Here the emperor is presented as a unifying symbol, a mental construct that allows 300 sub-empires (the duchies) to co-exist.

"L'etat, c'est moi", not the rule of law...

As I mentioned above, this would be relevant only if the Emperor did, in fact, change his mind frivolously. The only man in the Imperium that is not constrained by the rule of the Emperor's law is, at least theoretically, the Emperor. (In practice there would be constraints on what the Emperor could get away with and even more constraints on what Emperor Strephon would want to "get away with").

... and it goes on to describe relationships within the power structure:

The Imperium was held together, before the Emperor's death, by a web of personal oaths and loyalties. Hereditary nobles held their offices directly from the emperor; new appointees hold their offices as rewards for contributions or
good work. Potentially disloyal citizens were often granted nobility and co-opted into support of the empire.

This describes the structure of the 300 or less duchies into which the Imperium is divided. The perennial problem with an interstellar state the size of the Imperium is first and foremost command and control. The Imperium is hjeld together by personal oaths and loyalties. The individual member worlds are ultimately held in the Imperium by force. But the amount of force needed is dependent on how much the Imperial bond chafes. One way to keep things under control is for the Imperium to be considered better than the alternative, which includes following its own rules.

Sorry, but no democracy, no legislature, the Emperor as an autocrat who rules through decree and "nobles" without divine right who enforce those decrees by fleet control (military force); the same fleet control by which some emperors claimed the throne.

All true, but I don't see the relevance. Those decrees are no less authoritative than laws made by a democratically elected assembly. The only difference is that the Imperium beleives (or profess to believe) that the first is necessary to govern a teritory the size of the Imperium and that the second is incapable of such a feat.

Local commanders would definitely be activist to the point of being rewarded for "contributions or good work."

Local commanders would definitely be expected to do as they're told. It's really not much of a stretch to imagine that keeping the membership agreements is part of what they're told to do.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

... it's as they believe the Emperor will approve after the fact.


Hans

How ironic, arguing organizational behavior while studying for an organizational behavior exam. You fail to understand many basic concepts such as the human factor (motivation, etc.), delegation of authority, empowerment, decision making, opportunity, etc.; these concepts are all important to how organizations function. You seem to believe that the emperor would micromanage some minor concern in a backwater world? Highly doubtful, absurd really. The military commanders are empowered and are representatives of the high nobles and ultimately the emperor, what would be their motivation to disgrace themselves and the emperor in taking sides with some petty warlord? None, they would not be motivated to do so at all. Ultimately the emperor is indifferent and if the commander doesn't rock the boat, HQ and the nobles won't care as well. The whole system lacks checks and balances and is ripe for all sorts of corruption, officers cabals, nepotism, selective enforcement of laws, etc. ad nauseum.

The question of smuggling is easy, just for the commander to say that they thought that the scout was smuggling parts for or whole nuclear missiles. Then when they landed they were fired upon, which is a direct insult to the authority of the Imperium so they took the offending warlord to task as an example to the rest. He might even get a medal, even if there were not any missiles found, if even just for a nice spin and a photo op.

The local commander would be highly motivated to take a hand in matters because of the risk of something going wrong would be a greater black mark on his record, rather than being too active to protect the Imperium. The delay in communications means the local commander would be empowered by the nobles to act on their common interests, slightly zealous behavior would be tolerated much more than underperformance of duty.

 

[rancke]

You seem to believe that the emperor would micromanage some minor concern in a backwater world?

No, I believe he would NOT micro-manage minor concerns in a backwater world. Instead, he would promulgate rules for how his underlings should manage minor concerns on backwater worlds and a system of checks and balances to try to ensure that those rules were followed.

Highly doubtful, absurd really. The military commanders are empowered and are representatives of the high nobles and ultimately the emperor, what would be their motivation to disgrace themselves and the emperor in taking sides with some petty warlord? None, they would not be motivated to do so at all.

Um... I thought that was my point of view?!?

Ultimately the emperor is indifferent and if the commander doesn't rock the boat, HQ and the nobles won't care as well.

More of my point...

The whole system lacks checks and balances and is ripe for all sorts of corruption, officers cabals, nepotism, selective enforcement of laws, etc. ad nauseum.

The commander going off the reservation IS rocking the boat. The checks and balances are the Imperial regulations, the Imperial bureaucracy, and the Imperial nobles. The system is ripe for corruption, sure... if and only if those responsible for making it work fail in their duties. Which is exactly the same as any other system, including democracy.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Some of those checks and balances you're ignoring are in the article on Justice in the Imperium. Duchies and Sectors have courts of law to enforce imperial law. And those courts are staffed by Nobles. You're tried by nobles. Judged by them, too.

So, if you can justify your actions to them, you might get nullification... or smacked down for being out of place. The Military answers to those same noblemen both via the courts (which can try them for various actions and non-actions) and via the Ducal direct authority over the sector militaries.

It's patently clear that, most of the time, violating the treaties of joining will result in expensive and risky conflicts. If not in the battlefields, in the courts. Nobles have much to lose - Title, life, wealth - military men less, but often prizing it more. Add the potential for noble title recommendation from the local duke, and senior officers start looking really hard at what the local duke wants done... and whether their CO is doing that.

 

[shield]

Regardless of Imperial authority to intervene on planet outside the starport. The PCs have landed their ship only a couple of 100kms from an imperial starport. That will be detected on starport sensors.

The corp can find out where the PCs have landed - a few bribes will get the info and they can either sabotage the ship so that it no longer flies, bomb the ship, seize the ship or plant false evidence and squeal to the 3I.

The local warlord or any other native can attempt to steal stuff from the ship if they find it.

The 3I know where the ship landed. Depending on law level it may or may not be illegal to land at the starport, but given there is a nice fully equipped starport only a few 100km away, the landing is strange and will be noted.

Typically smugglers try that sort of thing. Whilst smuggling is a local govt affair, the 3I still have some restrictions - WMDs, breaking red zone, slaves or fugitives, illegal drugs (those against imperial law), health violations (deadly plagues etc.), espionage etc. Given the planet is a low tech world with a bunch of warlords, gun running and slavery are entirely possible. Therefore i think it is likely that as soon as the PCs get their ship in orbit and into imperial jurisdiction, they are likely to be boarded by a customs or naval vessel checking for weapons / slaves etc.

They are also likely to be questioned about the gunplay at the warloard's palace (just for intel purposes) even if they are not charged. The 3I MOJ may mark their files as potential trouble makers. They have after all just attacked a local govt leader. They may even hold the Travellers and ask the warlord if he wants them extraditing back to his custody - not too likely given the warloard's background.

 

[rancke]

Regardless of Imperial authority to intervene on planet outside the starport. The PCs have landed their ship only a couple of 100kms from an imperial starport. That will be detected on starport sensors.

Where did Rauthik say anything about where the country was in relationship to the Imperial starport? Do we know how common it is for starships to land in the country they plan to do business with rather than in the Imperial starport? With a local tech level of 5 it would be a lot cheaper to pick up and discard cargo on location rather than pay for transporting it any significant distance. Do we know what assets the Imperium has stationed in the system? There may not be any orbital surveillance at all.

The local warlord or any other native can attempt to steal stuff from the ship if they find it.

I was guessing that the point of landing in a jungle was to prevent locals from finding the ship.

Most of what you propose could happen if conditions were right. But it is by no means a certainty that the conditions are right. If the Imperial presence is a small underfunded enclave barely numerous enough to run the starport and the country with the valuable minerals is on the other side of the world, the local Imperial authorities may not even hear about it for weeks and then just as garbled rumors.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Rauthik, what are the lines of communication between the Imperium and this world? There'll be an Imperial legate (or perhaps just an Imperial consul if the world isn't populous enough to rate a legate). But who does he talk to when he wants to discuss anything? Is there a council of world leaders that he can address as a body, or does he interact with each country separately? Perhaps he just deals with the top half dozen and mostly ignore the rest?

How did the world join the Imperium? Did the Imperium just unilaterally declare that it was a member world or did it negotiate an entry and, if so, with whom? Was it formerly an interdicted world that had the interdict lefted when the world made its way up to TL5? Are there Imperial consuls in every capital and major city or just a few in the capitals of the most powerful countries, or even just one at the starport?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Sure it is the OTU, the Imperium is not a democracy, it is a prima facie military dictatorship with local commanders empowered to intercede in affairs as they see fit.

When did this happen?? My understanding of Imperial government is that it's your basic monarchy, with the Imperium retaining absolute authority in interstellar affairs and local governments granted mostly full autonomy so long as they retain allegiance to the throne. The only thing that comes to mind that overrides autonomy of a loyal system would be the imperial edicts - which cover stuff like treatment of psionics and Ancient sites, among other things. I can see local commanders empowered to intercede where enforcement of edicts or questions of loyalty are involved, but - short of some new edict coming out -my understanding is they respect local autonomy and stay out of local affairs unless they threaten to impact edict matters or allegiance, such as that nasty Ine Givar business on Efate.

I thought we were playing Traveller, not Star Wars.

 

[shield]

.
Lastly, while the PCs believe they have time to get the revolution going and convince the locals to deny offworlder involvement, the starport is only about 100 or so kilometers away and while the scouts and marines there do not involve themselves in the various warlords in-fighting, they do monitor it very closely. An air/raft and autocannon fire will stand out to them. I'm going to assume they will try to view the ruckus at long range (satellite, suborbital spy drone, etc.) and that cat will be out of the bag. The PCs believe that communication between the planets takes a long time but with an Imperial starport on planet .

Rancke2

here in post 46, we have an imperial starport with attached IISS and marine assets only 100km away. Starport reaction depends if the PCs tried a covert landing in the jungle or came up with a cover story of picking up cargo at a factory / mine to get aroun dlocal transport problems - that cover story looks feeble as they have landed in the middle of the jungle

Even if the starport personnel are insufficient to do much investigation, they will certainly log it and put it in the next message boat, and the PCs and their ship will be tagged for investigation in MOJ files. Up to the GM when the MOJ gets through the backlog

Its up to the GM to decide what problems to inflict on his travellers - just offering suggestions of possibilities.

 

[rancke]

here in post 46, we have an imperial starport with attached IISS and marine assets only 100km away.

Fair enough. I had overlooked that. A bit of a coincidence that of the whole planet, the valuable minerals just happened to be in the nearest country to the starport, but not an unbelievable one -- after all, the region closest to the starport is the one most likely to be investigated first. (Well, if I had been the corporation leader, I would probably have sent my covert investigation teams to some place a little less under the eye of the Imperial administration, but maybe that's just me ).

Starport reaction depends if the PCs tried a covert landing in the jungle or came up with a cover story of picking up cargo at a factory / mine to get around local transport problems - that cover story looks feeble as they have landed in the middle of the jungle

With the amount of forethought Rauthik tells us the players put into their plans, they probably just set down without even talking to the starport people, so, yes, point conceded.

Even if the starport personnel are insufficient to do much investigation, they will certainly log it and put it in the next message boat, and the PCs and their ship will be tagged for investigation in MOJ files. Up to the GM when the MOJ gets through the backlog.

That still depends on the relationship between the Imperials and the locals. Perhaps they're perfectly happy with outsiders smuggling things into the neighboring country. As I pointed out earlier, smuggling is usually not an Imperial crime.

Mind you, IMTU, if this was a formerly interdicted world recently opened up by the Scouts, I would have some Scout regulations restricting imports of high-tech weaponry. But that is based on my personal assumption that as a rule of thumb, the Scouts reevaluate interdicts of primitive cultures when they reach TL5 on their own and keep a protective eye on them for a probationary period after the interdict is lifted. None of which is canon.

Its up to the GM to decide what problems to inflict on his travellers - just offering suggestions of possibilities.

Another point I will concede. It just came across as something you thought was a foregone conclusion, not merely a possibility. My apologies for misreading your post.


Hans

 

[shield]

Hans

No problem, just trying to chip in my 2 pennys worth - no need for apologies.

As for smuggling in the 3I - that's not illegal, just depends what you are smuggling

 

[Rauthik]

Wow, the being viewed as possible smugglers idea really touched off a firestorm here.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's input. All the ideas are certainly welcome. However, to settle some points: As the group is new to Traveller we didn't really delve into the Imperial setup much so that I have leeway to make the overall government the way I need it. I know it's not cannon, but then the original LBBs do say that the game is designed to be played in whatever kind of sci fi universe you want. Again, the key here is leeway to make things more interesting. For the most part we are keeping the structure put out in the books but changeable for story purposes. All I told the players is that the Imperium hosts hundreds of worlds and has an Emperor, but tends to allow the individual worlds to govern themselves with the Imperium superceeding them.

That being said, the background info on this world (Cravus 3) was as such: A world with toxic (to humans) salt seas, and jungles teeming with lethal fauna... the rest of the planet is a s**thole. The local population is small and concentrated in one region. Originally they were a theocracy with a brutal and oppressive high priest ruling over all. When the Imperium arrived that structure crumbled, however left to govern themselves the locals fell to competing warlords who fight for control/domination of the people. The Imperium basically cannot be bothered to lift them out of this situation as the planet is a backwater and does not have any truly valuable resources that cannot be gotten elsewhere easier. They have a singular starport in the middle of all the warring factions and it is outfitted with a scout base and there are offworlders who do show up here from time to time, but not many. (basically, so that they wouldn't get too many stares when walking around).

Now, the thing they were sent there about was a new crystal that was discovered in this region (this one warlord's particular area) that is still unknown to the Imperium at large. The corp funded some geo surveys and a geologist found the stuff was in a mining area. He then found it had a great use industrially and told his corporate backers. The info has yet to be published or shared with anyone outside the corporation. The corp has talked to the warlord about mining rights (though the players don't know that) and he refused. He is in the process of talking to other offworlders though about deals. He doesn't know the value of the crystals he is sitting on though. His main concern is to get weapons and wealth from the highest bidder and take out his competing warlords. Of course, he is limited in who he can get tech from since there are few offworlders there and he can't explain why they should give it to him yet. Enter the Aslan mercs. They are working for a rival corp who -through espionage- knows that the crystal is valuable. They are talking to the warlord to scope him out because their corporate backers already have a deal with a nearby warlord. Once they get the info they need, they are going to back an attack by the second warlord (they will arm and train his men) to take the region and the mine. The PCs were to spark a revolution and then their corp would be able to set up exclusive mining rights with the new people led government of the area and then start bringing them tech and improve their living situation as well as protect them from neighboring warlords. Win/Win. They wanted it secret though because a corp sparking revolutions on different worlds is frowned upon in the Imperium and the backlash they would suffer from it (economically and socially as well as legally) would be devastating to their bottom line.

I hope that clears some things up for people though. So, with all that in mind, let's see what we all can add to this. I've gotten such great ideas and help here and I can't wait to see what everyone can come up with. Also, critiques of the adventure setup is always welcome too. This is my first time running Traveller and for 90% of the group it's their first foray into the game. So far they are excited to continue and for me to run more. Also, I run an RPG club at the school where I teach and some of the students want to try Traveller as well, so I need all the advice I can get.

 

[sabredog]

Wow, the being viewed as possible smugglers idea really touched off a firestorm here.

This is one of the reasons I never transitioned to the OTU - less "rules" to keep track of means more of my imagination is in play, in both senses of the word.

And there is less charring in the discussions I get involved in.

I have a world where every defensive and predatory strategy involves toxins, either manufactured or absorbed by the animal or plant using it. A few of the animals involved are these, in case you're interested in adding some to your "s**hole world" to compliment its inhospitable nature.

http://freelancetraveller.com/features/animals/devilsquirrel.html

http://freelancetraveller.com/features/animals/harpooner.html

http://freelancetraveller.com/features/animals/rsrunner.html

 

[Dragoner]

Wow, the being viewed as possible smugglers idea really touched off a firestorm here.

No, it has just been slow here, sorry if we hijacked your thread, don't be afraid to post and ask questions.

I thought we were playing Traveller, not Star Wars.

Well, that be supposing I know what you think of star wars. Which is interesting, because I can see the fault in both Hans and your thinking pattern with comparing the Imperium to Britain or Star Wars. In organizational behavior it is an identified irrational thought process called "Mental Models" which the text defines as:

Mental models-cognitive templates or images of the external world-provide stability or predictability in our lives, but they also produce assumptions and expectations that prevent us from seeing unique problems or opportunites. If an idea doesn't fit the existing mental model of how things should work, then the idea is dismissed as unworkable.

Interesting to see the concept from the text in action. The solution is to think outside the box.