New Handguns

[Nearside]

Just to hurl my 2c into the fray...

People are talking about more powerful weapons. Why? What's the point? At the end of the day, you want to shoot someone to put them down, either permanently or temporarily.

So- non-lethal weapons would be very popular, and quite powerful. One touch, one 'kill', though things like the stunners and sick-sticks from Minority Report would be more common in high tech level societies than lethal weapons (IMHO). High law levels mean that you want to drop someone and keep them alive in order to actually punish them under the law. It would be the lower law levels that carry lethal weapons and would be happy to use them and damn the law.

So, more powerful ammo in lethal weapons. Why?

1) To get through armor/protection. You have to be able to drop someone as always, but you need to actually get them first.
2) Medical science might even allow someone to be drugged up enough to ignore the effects of wounds from lethal weapons. So, you need to physically do enough damage to them to prevent them from moving. Pretty horrible, but I'm just logically working through these things.

However, you don't want to produce ammo so powerful that they just cut clean through flesh. They go through, out the other side, actually do LESS damage, and cause risk to other people nearby.

Also, powerful ammo on board a ship might puncture hulls, and that's just bad all around.

So, I think a high tech level culture would have explored non-lethal technology to the fullest for various practical and social reasons.

Disclaimer: I'm not a gun-nut, nor am I anti-gun. I just thought I'd sit down and gush text onto the screen on this subject.

 

[stormcrow]

Oh boy.. we have gone from Autos vs. revolvers to ammo types vs. damage... Is this rec.guns ?

For an RPG (imho) getting THIS detailed may be a bit much, but if you are gaming with a bunch of gun nuts, maybe not.

TL would increase damage types I would think. At TL8/9 perhaps introduce AP rounds (armor piercing) that get a +1 or +2 to hit but -1 or -2 to dmg (goes in, but transfers less energy to target), maybe some special JHP (jacketed hollow points for the less gun nutty) that give +2 dmg but -2 to hit (doesn't go through armor well).

Stuff like the 5.7mm FN round would be AP with +1 to hit, -1 to dmg I would be guessing (btw - on a side note, apparently the claims that this stuff goes through armor real well may be more marketing than truth).

As to non-lethal weapons vs. law level. I would tend to believe that law level is not just a desire for more justice but also ends up being a more intrusive gov't. A normal citizen would NOT be allowed to carry a tranq pistol on a law level 9 world. PCs arguing to the contrary would find out that the local police don't like ANY people running around w/ ANY weapons. The modifiers to behavior would be gov't type. A type 9 gov't (impersonal bureaucracy) would just be interested in keeping people in classifications perhaps (it doesn't MATTER that you were being raped ma'am, that didn't give you the police powers you assumed when you shot the suspect in question. Please follow us to the pokey.), while another world (also Law Level 9) with a type 2 (participatory democracy) might have exactly the outlook you are postulating (they allow non-lethals all the time, but no deadly weapons outside the home).

Note to admins: it MIGHT be a good idea to have a weapons forum

 

[Nearside]

I agree- a weapons forum sounds good right now...

When I was postulating about non-lethal weapons on high law level worlds, I was only really considering weapons in the hands of authorities- I'd imagine that even powerful non-lethal weapons would be illegal, but perhaps with lesser punishments for possession/use compared to lethal weapons in the same society.

Also, the consideration of Law Level/Government type is an excellent point, Stormcrow, nicely made. That might be the most important aspect of considering the use of non-lethal weapons (or lack of use) by authorities.

I'm not really considering Military use here either, that's a different matter. I'm considering a citizen/traveller's day-to-day experience of weaponary and law enforcement.

Another thought: specific types of ammo, though, would be appropriate to certain situations and locations. Possession of AP type rounds would be banned (and highly punishable) on board ships, with lower velocity rounds with softer metal/plastic being preferred. Starport staff might want to carry weapons with good stopping power to prevent escalation of problems. A fast resolution to a threat risks less injury and damage to the public and location than an extended fire-fight.

Random thoughts, I do apologize.

 

[Herodotus]

Originally posted by eclipse:
The classic CT snub pistol fires a very low low powered round. From Book 4, it's a "10mm, 7 gram bullet at velocities of 100 to 150 meters per second." The rounds listed are tranq, gass, HE & HEAP. No slug rounds due to the low power.

Good for shipboard work. Limited range otherwise, and rounds moving so slow you can probably see 'em with the naked eye. According to TA#1, T20 rules, the base range of Snub is 18m, compared with the 45m of a standard autopistol. The range is also less under the CT rules.

Now...given that if your characters are looking for trouble, they should carry a longarm anyway...but they probably don't/can't. I'd rather have an standard autopistol. Larger magazines, easier to conceal, etc.

I'd figure that TL10+ autopistols are pretty rugged and reliable. Standardized sealed magazines containing caseless rounds.

At TL13, you get gauss pistols. More damage, better range, larger magazines. Many players are quite fond of the gauss pistol.

Laser weapons in T20 require the power pack, so unless you like that lanyard effect, a bit of a pest. Hmmm...anybody up for a chemical laser writeup for T20?

 

[Herodotus]

Sorr about that last post. I'm new to this and messed up. What I wanted to mention was about the chemical lasers in TNE. They are an intresting idea, but the design was handled poorly. The chemical for each shot being dispensed in individual cases, like powder for a typical modern round was... a bit odd. It was like having a car with a one gallon gas tank and carrying twenty one gallon gas cans to refule it from. It would have made more sence to contain the laser fule in single tank where it could be despenced with a jet, like a fule injected engine. Perhapes by that tech leve they would have come up with a method of recycling and recharging the fule. Making the whole opperation a closed system.

 

[vegascat]

A good chem laser might be similar looking to a paint ball gun. The air feed lines would be similar. You can use 10 shot screw in CO2 carts, or hook a hose to a large tank on your back good for hundreds of shots. Weight and fragility would be similar. Of course, you would be lacking the top feeding hopper.

Just some food for thought.

 

[gardclan]

In effort to lighten the load, as it were, I offer the following design:

Zappotron Ray Gun (pistol)
Cost: Cr50,000
TL- "up there somewhere"
Weight: negligable
ROF: 1/5/10
Range: thats far enough, mister
Damage: 33d2 (that's right, we nickle and dime 'em to death!)
Size: about the size of a cricket
Type: noisy
Recoil: yes, have some
Ammo: 30

Based on the heretofore undiscovered zapotron effect. This high tech little monster fires unobtainium shells by means of the mysterious zapit field. The shells are mysteriously teleported inside the target by means of a pale blue ray. The shells then explode with the force of a hundred thousand people shouting "HUH" at once.

 

[Herodotus]

I like your idea of a chem laser having a similar lay out to a paint ballgun. It makes a lot more scence than the old TNE version. You would probably get more shots to cylinder of gas of laser fuel than you would with a CO2 cylinder for paint balls though
Also at higer tech levels you would think they would be able to come up with some way to recycle the gas internally, or at least come up with a fuel that is so efficient that you would only have to recharge the tank every couple of hundread shots. Either way, it would still look a lot like a paint ball gun, minus the ammo hopper.

 

[trader jim]

STOP IT YOU ALL JUST STOP IT!!!

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by trader jim:
STOP IT YOU ALL JUST STOP IT!!!

No one is forcing you to read this thread. But I'm getting awfully tired of seeing you drop these very intrusive posts (All CAPS, multiple smileys) in the middle of a thread that others are apparently enjoying.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by trader jim:
STOP IT YOU ALL JUST STOP IT!!!

Ok time to put my moderator hat one, damn thing never fits right...

TraderJim: Please don't interject comments like this in a thread simply because you aren't interested in the topic, as you can see it has the tendency to annoy others who are enjoying it. I try to give a lot of leeway here on folks posting, but when others start complaining I have to step in.

Hunter

 

[trader jim]

OK BOSS- ive been chastized.

 

[Luther Faust]

In regard to firearm improvements, I think the next step will be highly specialized ammunition. Maybe Smart ammo ala Judge Dredd, with multiple applications. Just give me a Gauss Shotgun and I'll be fine...

 

[Herodotus]

I suspect that propellent will be the next major development in firearms. This may be cassless, or the electro thermal charge out of the TNE. It is also possible that improvements in material and other technologies would make them lighter, or more accurate. Manufacturing techniques would allow parts to be built with greater tollerances, resulting in greater reliability. The over all effect (what ever the advancment) would be more rounds in the same space, lighter firearms, and more reliable weapons. They may or may not have more damage capability. The trend has been to lighter rounds that are "easier to control". Every once in a while someone comes out with the latest "BFG" (Big Freeking Gun ), such as the 454 Casull (my personal fav ). But on avarage smaller rounds are much more popular, and the trend in military small arms has been to smaller and smaller rounds.
As to techno rounds. They are a likely idea, but seem to me to be more of a modafication of weapon techology than a true advancement. Don't get me wrong, I love the fancy rounds! The seeker rounds (ala Logan's Run, or Run Aways) are a neat idea. I'm not sure of their place in a Traveller univers. Perhapes in very special firearms designed to fire them (and only them)?
I think the fanncier rounds would be more likely once you get to gauss technology. You can even even use guass technology to launch a self propelled round (thus having your "seekers").
The nice thing about guass "shotguns" is that the large bore allows for a huge varity of ammo. The light recoil of guass shotguns would allow even these large bore weapons to be handled much more easily, lacking the harsh recoil of traditional shotgun. Shotgun pistols anyone?

 

[vegascat]

I see advances being in the projectile for speed, accuracy and energy transfer. In the weapon for rate of fire, accuracy, target aquisition, and recoil abatement.
A faster projectile has a flatter trajectory and longer range, there for more accurate.
A more accurate projectile would be cleaner in flight or self guiding.
Energy transfer. How much of the bullets energy is transfered into the target, as opposed to blow through.
Rate of fire. More bullets is better. Any questions?
Target aquisition. You have to see what you hit, then put the weapon on line with the target. This will be electronic scopes, onboard video, and the laser dot of death.
Recoil abatement. If you can fire a 12.7MM handgun at 10,000 fps and have a recoil like a 22LR pistol, would you want it? How much would you pay?

What other improvements do you see coming along?

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Like an earlier poster, I see a market for 'less than lethal' options.

The purpose of a weapon is to get you something you want This can be altruistic "get off that woman" a selfish but perfectly legitimate "Leave me alone. Don't Hurt me." or a nefarious "your money or your life!" or even worse... "the gods demand that you infidel die."

For all, rendering someone unconscious. (especially if the method bypasses armour ... ie a Sonic weapon... kevlar won't help you there) would at minimum be an effective first step to getting what you want. Likewise the ability to afflict someone with pain or blindness, or paralysis might also be effective. Even tangling them in a contracting net (again bypassing armour), would serve all of the above purposes except the last two. and even they would find it credible as a first step as rendering a victim helpless can make them easier to rob, rape, or excute.

bigger nastier guns on the other hand, only serve the last two types of purposes well. (Although: a credible threat is ONE way to get what you want. AND killing someone WILL stop them from attacking you or someone you are protecting)

I think weapons for personal use will grow to match the common armour types. Otherwise I see more 'Less than Lethal' Options. Right now we have irrtant sprays (very short ranged), Bean bag guns, Tasers (range, pottential unintended lethality)and numerous (and even clever) variants on the blunt instrument.

What might the future hold?

 

[vegascat]

Garf, you been to war college?
"The purpose of war is not to kill the enemy, but to bend the enemy to your will." Don't remember the source, but it is taught at the Academy.
The use of a weapon is the application of the threat of violence to accomplish your goals.
Translation - You don't have to pull the trigger, if the other guy gives up.
When you resort to weapons, especially in Traveller, the uestion is, what are you intending to accomplish? That will determine the best weapon for the task at hand.
Self defense, anything you can lay a paw on.
Riot control, Nonlethal is prefered.
Get the guy of the victim, does it matter if the thug lives?
War, Lethal power at range.
Ship board defense against pirates, Anything that will not penetrate the hull.

Different weapons for different uses. And we get the fun of finding out what happens when you give deadly weapons to kids (PCs).

 

[Prometheus]

My thoughts are weapon systems that use C4I technical integration for improved targeting, friend or foe identification, laser deignators/range finder ( helpful for being a Fwd Obs). Improved Optic enchancements Low Light/Ir Tele x5-10, Caseless ammo that uses more powerful chemical propellant for higher muzzle vel., APDS or APHE rounds for the anti personel the low tech solution (TL:10-11) to defeating battle dress and combat armour.

How about the tech level 12 Laser pistol?

 

[Prometheus]

Mr. Murphy Laws of Combat here are a few:

friendly fire isn't.
your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.
if the the enemy is range so are you!

never made it to the war college ... but I know murphy was a fellow grunt.

 

[Prometheus]

the pan galatic gargle blaster!!! ... doh!!! wrong room ..sorry