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New Horizons flyby of Pluto

The probe is spending all it's efforts taking as many pics and instrument readings of Pluto and it's several moons as possible during the fly-by and won't start downloading it all to us until later tonight. We should see the first close-up pics late Wednesday.

Simon Hibbs
 
Yes, the differences (and the other satellites of Pluto may have more) are sure to reignite the theories of them being from separate regions (of the Kuiper Belt or moons of Neptune) and captured together in the Pluto system.
 
Fun fact - it takes the radio signals from New Horizons about four and a half hours to reach Earth.

Simon Hibbs
 
So has the planet-not a planet bit been resolved ?

I keep seeing the media refer to Pluto as a planet but thought Michael Brown 'debunked' such.
 
So has the planet-not a planet bit been resolved ?

I keep seeing the media refer to Pluto as a planet but thought Michael Brown 'debunked' such.

6 IAU categories currently
  • Stellar objects
  • Planets (major planets)
  • Dwarf Planets
  • Minor Bodies
  • Moons
  • extrasolar sub-stellar objects
Officially, any extrasolar worlds are not classed as planets, dwarf planets, nor minor bodies.

Dwarf planets are self rounding, minor bodies are not.

Moons are anything in orbit around a non-star.

Planets proper orbit the sun, don't share their orbits with things not gravitationally bound to themseves, and are self-rounding due to own gravity, and don't cross the orbits of larger bodies.

Pluto doesn't meet the criteria for a major planet. So, it's a dwarf planet. Except that everything in its particular orbit IS orbiting it.

Same for Quaoar, Sedna, Orcus, Haumea, etc...

The unspoken, not in the definition as written, requirement is a fairly low orbital eccentricity for a major planet... which pushes pluto (and Quaoar, Sedna, Orcus, Haumea, etc) out again.

Note: Pluto is so inclined that it's not ever in Neptune's orbital path.
 
So has the planet-not a planet bit been resolved ?

I keep seeing the media refer to Pluto as a planet but thought Michael Brown 'debunked' such.

A rain coat is still a coat, right?
A dwarf person is still a person, right?
Then why is a dwarf planet not a planet?

This is one of the reasons I hate unions so much. The IAU started this confusion.
 
A rain coat is still a coat, right?
A dwarf person is still a person, right?
Then why is a dwarf planet not a planet?

Fair point, but when is a Union not a Union?

This is one of the reasons I hate unions so much. The IAU started this confusion.

It's really not that kind of union. It's really just a professional association for setting international standards in Astronomy and promoting Astronomy education. It's not in any way a labour union.

Simon Hibbs
 
Some of those were added fairly recently specifically in order to exclude Pluto.

They were put in to exclude Ceres, Eris, Makemake, Haumea and several other similar objects. Eris is actually more massive than Pluto. If Pluto is a planet, then these other objects must be as well. This is the issue the definition was crafted to resolve and it happened to end up with Pluto falling outside the definition, but Pluto was in no way 'set up'.

Until Eris and the others were discovered there was no appetite for a redefintion, but with their discovery it became clear that a line needed to be drawn somewhere. After all if they are planets, what about marginally smaller objects again? Is every random chunk of rubble in the solar system in solar orbit a planet?

Criticism of the definition is fine, but what would you propose or support as an alternative?.

Simon Hibbs
 
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Except Jupiter and the Trojan asteroids?

The trojan asteroids are gravitationally bound to Jupiter. At Jupiter's trojan points. Hence the name ;)

It's really about comparably or planetary sized objects. There are random bits of rock in all sorts of orbits across the solar system that, over millions and billions of years, get slung around from one orbit to the other. They aren't really counted in this because they're not in long-term stable orbital bands the way the asteroid belt objects, planetary moons and trojans are.

To put it another way, asteroids in Earths orbital band will eventually get cleared out of Earth's orbital band by the Earth, it just hasn't happened to them yet. But other small objects will get slung into Earth's orbital band as well, before they too in turn get cleared back out of it again. There's a certain low level of equilibrium, but there's absolutely no question that Earth's gravity totally dominates within it's orbital band. Hence it's a planet.

Note that Pluto, Eris and others cross Neptune's orbit, but are considered to be gravitationaly bound to it because their orbits are resonant with it's orbit. So therefore it's considered that Neptune dominates it's orbital band, whereas e.g. Pluto, Eris, etc do not. Hence Pluto and the others are not planets. That's the logic as I understand it and I think it's reasonable and makes sense. I'm open to alternative suggestions though.

Simon Hibbs
 
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Except Jupiter and the Trojan asteroids?

It's not the trojans that are at issue. A trojan is a body in a a 3 body relatioship.

Call the big one A, the medium one B, and the small one C. C orbits B. B orbits A. We call it a trojan or a lagrange object when C's orbit of B holds it in the same angle ABC through all of B's orbit.


It's the other, non-trojan ones in jupiter crossing orbits that are not gravitationally bound to jupiter that cause the issue and technically should deny Jupiter planethood under the current definitions, as it's NOT cleared its orbit of non-bound objects. (Nor has earth - see also perseids and similar clusters of minor bodies. They cross the orbit often enough to have a recurrent name, and are not orbiting earth.)
 
Modern History of the term "Planet"

It is actually not the first time in astronomical history that objects were first included in, and then later excluded from planetary status. At the turn of the 19th Century, after pondering the apparent "gap" in Orbit #5 of Bode's Law (Bode's Law actually turns out to be just a coincidence, not a law), people started looking for an "8th" planet in this apparent gap between Mars and Jupiter. After intense searching, a small body about 500 miles in diameter was indeed discovered and named "Ceres", bringing the number of known planets up to 8: Mercury Venus, Earth, Mars, Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus (all fitting Bode's Law quite nicely). Over the next several years, 3 more planets were discovered in this region, which were subsequently named: Vesta, Pallas, and Juno, bringing the number of Planets up to 11. In 1846, Neptune was discovered (mysteriously "breaking" Bode's Law), nominally bringing the number of planets up to 12. However, in the meantime many more smaller bodies had been discovered orbiting between Mars and Jupiter, potentially increasing the number of planets in the Solar System to as high as 50. It was soon realized that calling every little chunk of rock that they found (and that is what many of them were) a planet was not only going to become cumbersome, but also break the unspoken and undefined sense of what a planet was supposed to be. Hence the terms asteroid and planetoid came into being, and everything in the newly termed "Asteroid Belt" was demoted from planetary status (lowering the number of planets in the Solar System back to 8).

With Pluto, you have almost the exact same situation occurring. Pluto was originally discovered by itself in 1930 and believed to be larger than Earth. Over time, revised estimates reduced its size to about that of the planet Mars. In the late 1970's, better imaging discovered not only that Pluto was much smaller than Mars (it was even smaller than Mercury), but that part of its apparent "size" was due to a heretofore unknown large and close-orbiting moon (dubbed "Charon"). By the 1980's it was theorized (and over the next 20 years verified) that in the region beyond Pluto there should be a belt of icy bodies in a fairly wide band that are ultimately responsible for many short-period comets. This belt has been named the Kuiper Belt. It turns out, just as with the Asteroid Belt about 200 years prior, Pluto is simply a large member orbiting along the inner edge of that belt (there are some other Kuiper Belt Objects [KBOs] that are comparable in size and at least one, Eris, that is apparently larger than Pluto). So the question became (just as with Ceres, Vesta, etc. in the the Asteroid Belt), "What makes Pluto so special that it should be defined as a planet, but all of the comparable bodies in the Belt not planets?" But it was also realized that self-rounded bodies due to self-gravitation were different from floating boulders, ice-chunks, and rubble piles, so a new category "Dwarf Planets" was created.

Personally, I would have preferred that the existing term "planetoid" be used and modified (further distinguishing the term from the more generic "asteroid"), but that is just me.

Ultimately the issue is that we all have a "sense" of what a planet is, but if we were asked to rigorously define the term (as is normally done in scientific circles), we would stumble around coming up with a clear definition. It was the Sci-fi author James Blish who invented the term "Gas Giant" in the 1950's. Before that, Jupiter was a "planet" no different from Earth or Mars being a "planet". But with the term "Gas Giant", a meaningful and descriptive subcategory was created to distinguish one class of planet from another. Thus, we now have, Gas Giants, Rocky (Terrestrial) Planets, and Dwarf Planets. And in exoplanet terminology, Gas Giants are now being subdivided as well into "Jovian" versus "Neptunes" (i.e. Gas Giant vs. Ice-Giant).
 
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It's the other, non-trojan ones in jupiter crossing orbits that are not gravitationally bound to jupiter that cause the issue and technically should deny Jupiter planethood under the current definitions, as it's NOT cleared its orbit of non-bound objects. (Nor has earth - see also perseids and similar clusters of minor bodies. They cross the orbit often enough to have a recurrent name, and are not orbiting earth.)

The problem with that literal an interpretation is that it would make the definition of a planet entirely situationaly contingent. The Perseids are the remains of a comet. Let's say for the sake of argument they were the only objects that could jeopardise the Earth's planetary status. Before the comet broke up Earth would be a planet, but then it would stop being a planet because the Perseids are within it's orbital band, but then after Earth's gravity had finished sweeping them out of it's orbit it would be a planet again.

Any rule we institute to determine planethood is ultimately a rule of thumb. In reality, and especially when we consider other solar systems as well, there are going to be every conceivable gradation of edge case to consider.

Simon Hibbs
 
We didn't have these problems when the Earth was flat. :oo:

If you could see it in the night sky, it was a star. :ssb:
If you couldn't see it, then it didn't matter. :omega:

Ah, to return to simpler days. :)
 
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