CT Only: No-Table Combat

[robject]

My evolving rule of thumb for combat without the tables:

1* use Mongoose rules (or similar) to grant stat bonuses.

2* add an Ergonomic DM to each class of weapon.

Those two combine to form a single Attack DM for each weapon, and in effect they replace the advantageous/disadvantageous weapon DM table.


3* add an Effective Range value to each class of weapon.

This one attempts to replace the attack-by-range table. It's not there yet, but it's a start.


4* rate armor in AV, typically from 0 to 3.

This is essentially the to-hit DM for having armor.




The attack task then becomes:


Up to Effective Range: 2D + Attack DM >= 8 + Range + Armor.
Beyond effective range, DM-2.

 

[Fovean]

Range could just be number of Range Bands distant? Perhaps x2 for Pistols or some such.

 

[kilemall]

Bleah. Nothing personal, but tying in armor to 'to hit' makes my tummy ache, and really stood out coming back to look at the system with older eyes.

Should camo therefore be treated as 'armor'?

I far more want a clean hit or miss proposition, THEN apply penetration and effects.

 

[Adam Dray]

I far more want a clean hit or miss proposition, THEN apply penetration and effects.

Why? What is interesting about "You fire your rifle at the soldier on the wall. A hit! Oh, but it does no damage..."?

In D&D, this is all combined into one roll, right? You interpret the roll how you like. Maybe the sword glanced off the platemail. Maybe the shield or their spear intercepted your sword. Maybe they stepped inside your range and grabbed your wrist.

You're abstracting a whole lot already. I'm not sure how separating hit and penetration adds that much.

Then again, armor soak applied to damage doesn't add a lot of handling time.

 

[atpollard]

My evolving rule of thumb for combat without the tables:

A worthwhile goal.

With respect to range, it is perhaps the one item best not over abstracted.
I say this not for gameplay reasons, nor because I love fussy details, but because where you are and where the bad guy is is one of the few really critical pieces of information for the PLAYER to have a proper awareness of the situation ... it affects roleplay and comprehension. For that reason alone I prefer to track time in real units (even if that means it is 2:38:30 PM and next combat round is 2:39:00 PM) and distance in real units (like meters).

Personally, I gravitate to something like the pistol is -1 to hit per 30 meters and the rifle is -1 to hit per 150 meters. [numbers pulled from thin air for illustrative purposes only].

 

[kilemall]

Why? What is interesting about "You fire your rifle at the soldier on the wall. A hit! Oh, but it does no damage..."?

In D&D, this is all combined into one roll, right? You interpret the roll how you like. Maybe the sword glanced off the platemail. Maybe the shield or their spear intercepted your sword. Maybe they stepped inside your range and grabbed your wrist.

You're abstracting a whole lot already. I'm not sure how separating hit and penetration adds that much.

Then again, armor soak applied to damage doesn't add a lot of handling time.

Guess I'm coming at this from both an armor sim game perspective AND naval minis, where in both it matters that you hit at all and then resolve penetration/effects. Just a much more natural perspective for me and my group.

A hit but no penetration is often a useful datum point as to how much danger one is in and from where, especially in that armor game as you can hear what direction the hit came from.

Heightens the in-danger part if there are a lot of pings and sprangs and bruises happening against player armor, and the hits are more nuanced without getting into crazy levels of hit resolution.

It also simplifies summing up 'to hits', and allows for better survival against something like FGMPs- you have a better chance of being missed vs. being autoslagged.

D&D abstracts a lot, including the effect of magic items. It's a different gig, I prefer a hard feel to scifi.

 

[aramis]

Guess I'm coming at this from both an armor sim game perspective AND naval minis, where in both it matters that you hit at all and then resolve penetration/effects. Just a much more natural perspective for me and my group.

Which is why I much prefer the MT approach...

And it's easy enough to adapt it with only CT-CD sources, and do it slightly better...

2d6+Pen-AV	Damage
≤3	None
4—7	CT Damage halved
8—11	CT Damage
12—15	CT Damage x2
16—19	CT Damage x4
20—24	CT Damage x8

Or, more smoothly, still using CT damage dice

2d6+Pen-AV	Damage
≤3	None
4—5	1 point per CT die
6—7	dice/2
8—9	Dice
10—11	Dice x 1.5
12—13	dice x 2
14—15	Dice x 3
16—17	Dice x 4
18—19	dice x 6
20—21	dice x 8
22—23	dice x 12
24—25	Dice x 16

 

[Supplement Four]

It's easy to use CT, as written without combat tables. I ran most of my games that way.

 

[aramis]

It's easy to use CT, as written without combat tables. I ran most of my games that way.

You're not the typical player/ref, either.
(without making any value judgements as to whether that's good or bad.)

I've known several people who memorized the combat tables in total (within ≥99% accuracy).

Most of us, however, used the tables. At least until Striker/AHL or MT came into our lives.

 

[Supplement Four]

Most of us, however, used the tables. At least until Striker/AHL or MT came into our lives.

It's not something secret.

Many games show stats on the weapon sheet, right? In my Conan game (d20 3E based), the weapon sheets show damage, critical hit multiplier, penetration, and range for range weapons.

So...a CT weapon sheet looks like this...

[B]TL 5  AutoPistol[/B]
Ammo=15     Ammo Wt=250     Wt=750
Dam=3D

Attack Mod=+0

No +1, Ja +1, Me -1, Cl -3, Re +1, Ab -1, Co -5

Cl +1, Sh +2, Me -4, Lo -6

Scribble that on the equipment page of a character sheet. If using TAS Form 2, then put it on the back.

We used to copy this stuff onto index cards. That made it easy to change out equipment with other characters. "Hey, toss me your pistol!" The player would just give the other player the index card with the info on it.

We just copied the info from the charts onto the cards. Viola! No charts used.



The player can see range when firing his weapon, so that mod is a no brainer. The last range listed is, of course, the maximum effective range for the weapon. See the last line on the card above for Range mods.

The character can also see his target's armor. Again, no problem. Pick from the line of mods.

The attack mod is the character's relevant stat for the weapon. In this case, I chose DEX 7, which is a +0 mod with this weapon. Alternatively, you could list the AutoPistol stat mods: 7/-2 A/+1

Because gun combat in CT usually happens at either Short or Medium Range, players would alter the card a bit like this--

[B]TL 5  AutoPistol[/B]
Ammo=15     Ammo Wt=250     Wt=750
Dam=3D

Base Attack Mod= +0
Short Attack Mod= +2
Medium Attack Mod= -4

No +1, Ja +1, Me -1, Cl -3, Re +1, Ab -1, Co -5

Cl +1, Sh +2, Me -4, Lo -6

Doing this, everything is precalculated for the character--all except armor. The player knows that he's +2 at Short Range and -4 at Medium Range before the armor mod is applied.

There's a target at Short range, wearing normal clothes. That means the character is +3 to hit.

I've run Classic Traveller like this for decades. It sure beats looking up info in charts.

 

[aramis]

That's still a table lookup S4 - it's just moving it off to the player, who now has a table on his/her/their sheet.

Which is why I prefer a simpler solution. Striker is just that. Plus, Striker also separates hit and penetration.

 

[Supplement Four]

That's still a table lookup S4 - it's just moving it off to the player, who now has a table on his/her/their sheet.

Which is why I prefer a simpler solution. Striker is just that. Plus, Striker also separates hit and penetration.

Striker has its merits. I've never used it much, but I like it.

I like MT combat, too, with penetration.

But, if you want to run CT combat quick, then the above is the way to go, imo.

As far as that being a table lookup...well, I guess it is, but it's no more than usual weapon stats with most games. Plus, if the second suggestion is used, it is lightning quick.

For that second weapon card...

Quick, a foe in Cloth armor is at Medium Range! What's your modifier? -7.

A Vargr Corsair in regular clothes is right next to him. What's your modifier? -3.

Pretty quick-n-easy.



NOTE: Thank you for editing my post above as I asked.

 

[creativehum]

That's still a table lookup S4 - it's just moving it off to the player, who now has a table on his/her/their sheet.

Which is why I prefer a simpler solution. Striker is just that. Plus, Striker also separates hit and penetration.

Hi Aramis,

I have no preference on this issue yet. I just opened Striker for the first time in a long time, and I have to say, I'm intrigued.

That said... doesn't Striker combat depend on a table as well? If one fires a weapon, one will have to check range for effectiveness, penetration, DMs for DEX bonus, and such. So, one is still cross-referincing weapon against range, yes. But losing the cross-reference of weapon against armor.

As someone who hasn't played Striker before, I'm curious does it really make that big a difference?

Also, I've become fond of CT's simultaneous movement and simultaneous combat. (It makes every round of combat such a gamble.) Striker, however, alternates movement and combat between sides. How does that end up feeing in play?

[Note: I'm agnostic on separating out hit and penetration. For me it's an abstraction either way. In the Basic CT combat, when you add in the weapon vs. armor DM you're checking to see if you'll penetrate. If you roll and don't hit it means you didn't penetrate -- even if you might have hit the target. So mostly I'm asking about the handling time for play.

Thanks!

 

[aramis]

Hi Aramis,

I have no preference on this issue yet. I just opened Striker for the first time in a long time, and I have to say, I'm intrigued.

That said... doesn't Striker combat depend on a table as well? I
Thanks!

A weapon entry for combat data consists of

Laser Carbine 50 shots, Eff: 15 (7) Long:30 (3) Ext: 150 (1)
9mm revolver 6shots Eff: 1(1) Long: 4 (0) Ext: 10 (0)
7mm auto rifle 20 sh Eff: 30(3)+3 Long: 60(2)+2 Long:90(2)+1​

The number is the Range in meters (Pen to that range) Autofire Mod
Effective is 8+, Long is 10+, Extreme is 12+, on 2d6 plus the skill and attribute mods as per CT.

Some people include the dex mods on the listing when using it in CT - one guy I know ran it that way. (And whinged when I didn't recalculate)

Pen is always 2d6+Pen-Av for 4 points per step - one very easily memorized table. Progression is:
0—3 None
4—7 Light (3d) — can't move, –1 to future to actions,
9—11 Severe (6d) — out of action
12+ Death
Note that extending the table logically results in either doubling per 4 points, or +3d per 4 points. At +3d, death would be 9d (occasionally survivable); at doubling, it would be 12d, almost always lethal.

Note that Light+severe = death, as does 3 lights, and 2 lights does equal a severe.

 

[creativehum]

Awesome clarity.

Thanks for that. I have a bunch more questions about Striker, but I'm going to start another thread so as not to derail this one.

Thanks!

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Wicked!

It's not something secret.

Many games show stats on the weapon sheet, right? In my Conan game (d20 3E based), the weapon sheets show damage, critical hit multiplier, penetration, and range for range weapons.

So...a CT weapon sheet looks like this...

[B]TL 5  AutoPistol[/B]
Ammo=15     Ammo Wt=250     Wt=750
Dam=3D

Attack Mod=+0

No +1, Ja +1, Me -1, Cl -3, Re +1, Ab -1, Co -5

Cl +1, Sh +2, Me -4, Lo -6

Scribble that on the equipment page of a character sheet. If using TAS Form 2, then put it on the back.

We used to copy this stuff onto index cards. That made it easy to change out equipment with other characters. "Hey, toss me your pistol!" The player would just give the other player the index card with the info on it.

We just copied the info from the charts onto the cards. Viola! No charts used.



The player can see range when firing his weapon, so that mod is a no brainer. The last range listed is, of course, the maximum effective range for the weapon. See the last line on the card above for Range mods.

The character can also see his target's armor. Again, no problem. Pick from the line of mods.

The attack mod is the character's relevant stat for the weapon. In this case, I chose DEX 7, which is a +0 mod with this weapon. Alternatively, you could list the AutoPistol stat mods: 7/-2 A/+1

Because gun combat in CT usually happens at either Short or Medium Range, players would alter the card a bit like this--

[B]TL 5  AutoPistol[/B]
Ammo=15     Ammo Wt=250     Wt=750
Dam=3D

Base Attack Mod= +0
Short Attack Mod= +2
Medium Attack Mod= -4

No +1, Ja +1, Me -1, Cl -3, Re +1, Ab -1, Co -5

Cl +1, Sh +2, Me -4, Lo -6

Doing this, everything is precalculated for the character--all except armor. The player knows that he's +2 at Short Range and -4 at Medium Range before the armor mod is applied.

There's a target at Short range, wearing normal clothes. That means the character is +3 to hit.

I've run Classic Traveller like this for decades. It sure beats looking up info in charts.

Dude, we may have our political differences and editions we play now, but I got mad respect for your CT skills!

This whole thing is golden and I am so swiping the crap out of it and modding into my meatspace T5 games.

The whole "Pass me your pistol!" bit is awesome metagaming fun. Yeah, rocking stuff, man, just plain rocking. Dangnabbit just when I thought I had escaped the Index Cards of Traveller you have to go and add them back. Gee, thanks.

 

[Supplement Four]

This whole thing is golden and I am so swiping the crap out of it and modding into my meatspace T5 games.

You may be interested in something similar I wrote a while back. Same concept, but slightly different presentation, using traditional CT weapon information, all in a single line.

Some people prefer the single line info. Click here to see that post.





This is something I've written before, good for CT Refs to remember...

A NOTE ON COMBAT RANGE

CT range categories are extremely easy to use. Most of the time, you will deal with Medium Range. The other range categories are for special circumstances. When in doubt, the range is Medium.



BRAWLING: When fighting with hands or hand weapons like a sword or broken chair leg, default to SHORT RANGE.

INDOORS: When inside buildings or spacecraft, default to MEDIUM RANGE.

OUTDOORS: When outside, default to MEDIUM RANGE unless the enemy is a long distance away. In the case of the latter, default to LONG RANGE. Medium Range is also called pistol range, and Long Range is also called rifle range.

SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES: If physically touching an enemy, as when a PC sneaks up behind a guard and puts a knife to his throat, or when two characters are wrestling and grappling each other, use CLOSE RANGE. VERY LONG RANGE is reserved for extremely long distances that might be used for a sniper and his rifle or when flying grav craft attack each other.





COMMENTARY

Any combat situation that can come up in your game can easily be governed by using the two simple tools: Typical Actions and the Combat Procedure.

If you ever have any question about how to play out an encounter, simply break the characters declared actions up into two words from the Typical Actions table, then just follow the steps of the Combat Procedure table in order.

 

[coliver988]

Wicked redeux

Have to agree - the use of cards with the data and being able to toss over the weapon to another player is a really great idea. I've been inching towards wanting to ref again after a 30 year break, and this would be a great way to get players into the game w/o having to have copies of all the books for people to look things up (but being gamers they will always want to look things up).

I know at one point there were trading card samples for planets - think the same thing should be done for weapons. Elsewhere I think I saw other posts that were complete with images as well. Have to see what I can do if I ever get some free time.

 

[Supplement Four]

Have to agree - the use of cards with the data and being able to toss over the weapon to another player is a really great idea. I've been inching towards wanting to ref again after a 30 year break, and this would be a great way to get players into the game w/o having to have copies of all the books for people to look things up (but being gamers they will always want to look things up).

One of my long term players is an equipment hog. No matter what game we play, he's always pushing the limits of what can be carried. He likes to have every tool possible available to get him out of trouble.

I found that the cards do two things.

First, with each piece of major equipment being represented by a card, the number of cards a player has is a physical representation of the equipment a character is carrying. In Classic Traveller, this isn't really an issue with the fairly restrictive weight limits. But, in a fantasy game like the Conan RPG, where your STR score allows you to carry A LOT of weight, the cards really help the player to also visualize bulk.

Second, the cards can be spread out in front of the player, helping him visualize where the equipment is carried on the character. "I've got this one around my neck. I've got this on my hip--weapon belt. This, I'm carrying on my back." And so forth. If an issue comes up in the game, then we pretty much know where each item is on the body of the character.

As for carrying the cards, I went down to the office supply story and bought some of those zip-lock pockets that fit in three ring binders. The character sheet is in the binder, and the cards are kept in the pockets.





Also...once a card is made, it is always useful. If a character loses a weapon or piece of equipment, don't throw the card away. Keep it, like you keep the failed Survival throw PCs for your NPC file. Keep the old cards, and if you ever need something quick, then just draw from the stack of left-over cards at random.

For example, the players are searching a crew cabin. You decide that they find a weapon under a pillow. Just reach in and pull a weapon card, at random, from the deck.

 

[robject]

Stan Shinn made good use of row-entries for weapons in last year's CT game. While we couldn't "toss a gun" to another player (all character data including weapons was on one side of a 3x5 card), all the data was there.

It's not really a burden for players to figure out what their to-hit mod is. They know range and their target's armor already, and two lookups on one-row tables doesn't slow human brains down.