nobility

[Timerover51]

The best description I have come closest to is they are similar to mob bosses...

Having spent most of my life in the Chicago area, and having been asked several times during two trips to England as to whether or not the Mob still runs Chicago, I think that I have some idea as to how Mob bosses operate.

No, the Imperial nobility is not in any way similar to Mob bosses.

 

[mike wightman]

Having spent most of my life in the Chicago area, and having been asked several times during two trips to England as to whether or not the Mob still runs Chicago, I think that I have some idea as to how Mob bosses operate.

No, the Imperial nobility is not in any way similar to Mob bosses.

I disagree. I am not saying you should take it literally, it is an oversimplification to get the general idea.

 

[Thanos]

Has a sub sector Duke ever been removed just on shear incompetence?

 

[flykiller]

Has a sub sector Duke ever been removed just on shear incompetence?

since we're talking "mob", has a sub-sector duke ever been overthrown for sheer "incompetence"?

say hello to my little friend ....

 

[Drakon]

my view as well. but a protection racket? no marine is going to fight for a protection racket. no sailor is going to sit at his panel during a meson battle for a protection racket. no world is going voluntarily to join a protection racket.

So we dress it up a bit, and hide the nature of the social contract. "You pay your Imperial taxes, and the Imperium will build mighty starfleets to protect your lands and property from whatever outside dangers their may be." Appeal to their self interest, "an organized defense, drawing on the industries, and wealth, of a thousand worlds will always do a better job that one planet by itself." Dress it up in patriotism, or security, or holy mission, or any number of effective philosophical and/or emotional concepts the target audience finds appealing.

Now, just because there is a protection racket does not necessarily mean there is no external (or even internal threat) to the lives and properties of the citizens of the Imperium. While I feel the term is apt, I believe that most people see the crime through the lens of higher "taxes" on otherwise honest citizens. But one thing about being covered by such rackets is that nobody messed with you. If you paid protection and got robbed, invariably the robbers would wish the police caught them first.

during the drawdown of the roman/byzantine empires many conquered citizens welcomed their new german/moslem lords because these new rulers' tax rates were not nearly as debilitating as those of the imperial governments. if the imperium is a protection racket then it would be equally unstable and prone to infiltration and subversion by the zhodani and vargr.

I was just reading something about that today, about how the roman bread policy eventually led to higher taxes, price control and the collapse of the empire. Let me see if I can find it.

Just because it is a protection racket does not make it necessarily unstable. People can learn from mistakes of the past. How to get the ruled to accept their rulers, and keep taxes low enough as to not overly burden the ruled.

 

[flykiller]

I can see that working for a decade, or maybe for a generation, as a parasite on the edge of a true civilization. but not for a thousand years, not as a core of government. people always want more, so taxes will increase. as people realize that the only safe position is as some sinecured imperial noble they will crowd into those ranks, leading to further tax increases, etc. and not just taxes, as "imperial nobles" will use their positions for all kinds of personal gratifications. every single admiral will become consumed with the notion of "how do I install myself as the local ruler?" because those will be the only kinds of people who succeed in promotions. as common people realize that the entire system views them as sheep to be sheared they will stop working, stop advancing, stop caring - except for those who view themselves as the shearers, THOSE will be driven to advance into the system. the whole thing would decline, eat its own tail, and fall apart.

 

[Condottiere]

The assumption is that bad governance will eventually come and bite you in the buttocks, and the Roman economy evolved to one that over relied on foreign tribute to support a military that had to be bribed, as well as an electorate that had to be bribed as well.

In the Imperiun, this contagion is probably confined to a subsector scale at most, if it's permitted to reach that far. While custom might prevent the arbitrary deposing of a subsector duke, the Imperium could implement a strict adherence to tax payment and litigation of the slightest infraction of Imperium law, creating the conditions that will allow an impeachment.

 

[mike wightman]

Think about how the Imperium grew.
Some worlds were approached and joined.
Some were made an offer they couldn't refuse.
Some were directly attacked and conquered.

Meanwhile in AotI we learn that long range Imperial scouting missions 'gift' maker and fusion+ tech to worlds, setting up a local in a position of power on the proviso that when the Imperium finally comes calling they join up.

Also consider that Cleon made up the nobility from his board of directors, who then declared him Emperor.

 

[Sir Brad]

The Nobility are not the two bit hood style of mobster, they are the "Men of Grate Respect" type that have gone legitimate. they may now be council men and city cabinet members, but they still know how to bust kneecaps and slit throats, still have some of the boys from the old days on the payroll and a little black book of numbers for "Specialist Talent" in their wall safe.

Also they are in to more than the protection racket, they have the Utilities & Waste Management, are in tight with the Teamsters ect. plus unlike most of the other rackets they can and will uphold their promises beyond "pay up or we will come for you" when they say "Protection" so those payments are worth the bit extra

 

[flykiller]

The Nobility are not the two bit hood style of mobster, they are the "Men of Grate Respect"

"say hello to my little friend!" pulls out an fgmp-15 ....

 

[Whipsnade]

Think about how the Imperium grew.

Excellent examples, Mike.

Add to them the thinking behind the two campaigns presented in T4's Pocket Empires: Build a polity strong enough to help you negotiate with the Imperium when it comes knocking.

"You can spend blood, treasure, and time taking me down or we can talk about a deal..."

 

[kilemall]

The assumption is that bad governance will eventually come and bite you in the buttocks, and the Roman economy evolved to one that over relied on foreign tribute to support a military that had to be bribed, as well as an electorate that had to be bribed as well.

In the Imperiun, this contagion is probably confined to a subsector scale at most, if it's permitted to reach that far. While custom might prevent the arbitrary deposing of a subsector duke, the Imperium could implement a strict adherence to tax payment and litigation of the slightest infraction of Imperium law, creating the conditions that will allow an impeachment.

Hmmm.

The population>government>law level=corruption mechanism says that the core worlds are corrupt as a matter of daily business and livelihood. I'd say that in the case of entire sectors of such worlds corruption is institutionalized, likely to the point society doesn't work on those planets without it.

 

[Condottiere]

The problem with institutionalized corruption is that there's little outside investment, it's inherently inefficient, raises financial and bureaucratic hurdles to innovation of any form, and needs to be fed.

 

[Ishmael]

The problem with institutionalized corruption is that there's little outside investment, it's inherently inefficient, raises financial and bureaucratic hurdles to innovation of any form, and needs to be fed.

There will always be investment from somewhere if there is profit to be made within the time-frame that the investor expects. Profit may or may not be material goods...

 

[kilemall]

The problem with institutionalized corruption is that there's little outside investment, it's inherently inefficient, raises financial and bureaucratic hurdles to innovation of any form, and needs to be fed.

Like say an Imperium where there is a flat tax but the tax is more burdensome on border sectors with lower tech levels and therefore good/service valuations?

May also be a mechanism for income distribution and effectively busy work, and also one can enforce the full lawn, no bribes, to oppress as needed?

The end product is all those billions living without starvation, at the price of constant surveillance harassment and proven compliance ala bribery, and the minimal taxation still produces a huge armed force that can hold off the barbarians?

Self-funding police state too.

 

[kilemall]

There will always be investment from somewhere if there is profit to be made within the time-frame that the investor expects. Profit may or may not be material goods...

What is the price of a favor on a law level C world? What is the value?

Easily millions of credits, potentially billions.

 

[Condottiere]

Net profits tend to be exported off-planet.

 

[flykiller]

should have titled this thread "anti-nobility".

 

[Ishmael]

What is the price of a favor on a law level C world? What is the value?

Easily millions of credits, potentially billions.

I'd tend to believe that depends on how you handle 'culture' within your universe.
I base descriptions of a world's culture ( often more than one ) on Hofstede's cultural dimension theory. It's simple enough and widely used in the real-world so there is plenty of reference material for it.

There appears to be a positive correlation between corruption and Hofstede's power_distance, uncertainty_avoidance, and masculinity. In a high collectivism and high power_distance culture, masculinity is the single cultural variable that contributes to corruption.

A little of time with google also tells me that there is a relationship between corruption and GNP per capita.

Hofstede's individualism correlates to with GNP per capita so it could be an indicator of corruption if GNP per capita is not available.

Government size is covered pretty much by the power_distance variable. Some studies show there is little/no correlation between corruption and income inequality.

If I were backed into a corner, I'd equate the UWP gov value with Hofstede's power_distance, and the law-level with Hofstede's uncertainty_avoidance.

 

[Timerover51]

What is the price of a favor on a law level C world? What is the value?

Easily millions of credits, potentially billions.

You would be surprised on how cheap favors can be purchased in the Real World.

Saying any more or specifying a particular area would probably get me banned. Sufficient to say that you do not have any real understanding of corruption.