Oh dear - maybe they can exist after all

[mike wightman]

Virus is impossible because chips can't do that sort of thing - real world know it all computer geek.

It appears we don't actually know everything that chips can do...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16291943

 

[robject]

Duh. Never underestimate science fiction...

 

[Jame]

I never found nearly as much issue with Virus as others.

But then, I'm no computer geek, and TNE *was* my first version of Traveller - me being all of 13 at the time.

 

[Starviking]

I think in this age of silent automatic updates to computers, viruses downloaded into air defense radars by fighter radars (Israel vs. Lebanon recently) and now this, that many of the objections to Virus are not as solid as they used to seem.

 

[travlar]

I think the objection is usually that Virus somehow converts regular chips into these changeable chips, not that they're impossible in the first place. But I could be wrong; that's just the impression I've gotten from the few times I've seen it discussed.

 

[mike wightman]

Ahh - but if this self repairing ability becomes standard what next?

Chips that can reconfigure themselves in hardware following a software instruction.

That's starting to sound awfully like biological viral genes reprogramming biological cells.

No longer science fantasy but entering the realm of science fiction

Now if I can only find a current technology that could explain grav manipulation...

 

[BytePro]

Ahh - but if this self repairing ability becomes standard what next?

It won't - company execs don't want their stuff to last longer!

Self repairing chips were conceived a long time ago in manufacturing - back when liquid cooling inside substrate was implemented (but never commercialized). Of course, physical, non-deterministic self-repair is quite different from self-reprogramming...

'Chips that can reconfigure themselves in hardware following a software instruction.' -> Look up Programmable Logic Device. First commercial were circa 1969 (note commercial - research had implemented many years before with papers approximately half a century ago.).

The hardware to perform such could have been controlled by software, and of course, shortly after their introduction, was (digital programmers). Enter the Field Programmable Gate Array - commercial in mid 1980's (look up Xilinx) - research in the late 70's with patents issued and Naval non-black list programs begun in the early '80s.

Before the turn of the last century, these provided for full blown SoC and even the integration of genetic programming algorithms (reference 'Evolvable Hardware'). (Also, reference Algotronix (sp?) for a commercial 'reconfigurable' computer ~1990 - bought by Xilinx, IIRC).

[As to grav tech, nothing commercial I know about - though there was some research stuff in the '70's referred to as 'anti-grav' - but it was just lift provided by microwave energy interacting with ionized atmospheric gases, IIRC. ]

Please note, mainstream media tech 'breaking news' - rarely is. Mostly its just old news finally brought to light because someone is looking for grant money... o:

 

[far-trader]

...Enter the Field Programmable Gate Array - commercial in mid 1980's (look up Xilinx) - research in the late 70's with patents issued and Naval non-black list programs begun in the early '80s.

That rings a bell, wonder where I was reading it back then? Thanks for the memory flashback

Please note, mainstream media tech 'breaking news' - rarely is. Mostly its just old news finally brought to light because someone is looking for grant money... o:

QFT. That or misunderstood and hyped beyond all reality by said media. Not the case here it seems, but often.

 

[robject]

I think the objection is usually that Virus somehow converts regular chips into these changeable chips, not that they're impossible in the first place. But I could be wrong; that's just the impression I've gotten from the few times I've seen it discussed.

Yes, that's the objection. The chips were supposedly silicon, as well, so they're actually carving out little logic gates in silicon, which does seem a bit unlikely to me, but I'm willing to bet that Intel will be able to do something like that ... if it's useful.

The FPGA is a reasonable analog to this, although Virus would supposedly be an order of magnitude more clever about its process.

 

[rancke]

I think in this age of silent automatic updates to computers, viruses downloaded into air defense radars by fighter radars (Israel vs. Lebanon recently) and now this, that many of the objections to Virus are not as solid as they used to seem.

My objection was never about the ability of Cymberline chips to wrassle another chip to the ground and have its wicked way with it (i.e. engrave new paths on it). It was with a DEYO chip being able to do something similar via radio waves.

(That is to say, it was my objection until I "realized" that Virus wasn't a chip, it was a disembodied psoinic construct whose natural habitat was chips. Hence its ability to teleport from one chip to another once it had established contact.)


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I think the objection is usually that Virus somehow converts regular chips into these changeable chips, not that they're impossible in the first place. But I could be wrong; that's just the impression I've gotten from the few times I've seen it discussed.

The technical side wasn't what got me, it was the effect of virus: as if all programmers suddenly fell over dead, your pocket calculator was taken over and the ZILLIONS DIE! The Virus itself is kinda cool, it is just the way it was used as a deus ex machina plot device.

 

[mike wightman]

Absolute tosh.

You can transmit software updates by radio waves.

(Those radio waves are effectively the DNA)

The software code programs the architecture of the chip or instructs the chip how to configure itself.

(the software is is effectively the genetic information)

You don't need psionics to explain it, you just need an understanding of how software can be transmitted by radio and how that software can reconfigure hardware.

(go read up on the trojan virus the USA has developed to attack the Iranian nuclear reactors - very scary stuff, the Sunday Times ran an article about it a few weeks ago)

 

[BytePro]

Technically, I have no problem with a Sci-Fi re-structuring at a distance concept for electrical systems. EMP does this, and so does RF induced thermal changes in modern wireless systems today. Access to encrypted flash cards has been demonstrated using light (well, actually thermal energy from a light source) to randomly change semiconductor material in order to bypass the encryption.

Its a stretch, of course, for systems that are designed to tolerate the rigors of space (*though other handwaves - looking at you, gravitics - could nullify such) and over the numbers and distances the OTU would involve. Not to mention the tamper resistance that would need to be in place for such trusted systems - but then, the RW is a perfect example of how, what rationally should be, doesn't get done for social (market) reasons.

Mostly, though, Virus was just a cheap literary hack! :devil:

(Just kidding - well mostly - never played anything but CT and not in the OTU - skipped all the other OTU as well - so I have no real idea about Virus other than tidbits on the board! )

 

[aramis]

Absolute tosh.

You can transmit software updates by radio waves.

(Those radio waves are effectively the DNA)

The software code programs the architecture of the chip or instructs the chip how to configure itself.

(the software is is effectively the genetic information)

You don't need psionics to explain it, you just need an understanding of how software can be transmitted by radio and how that software can reconfigure hardware.

(go read up on the trojan virus the USA has developed to attack the Iranian nuclear reactors - very scary stuff, the Sunday Times ran an article about it a few weeks ago)

Only if every designer throughout imperial space uses the same architechture and that architechture is one of these more expensive, more vulnerable, self-modifying designs, AND they all use the same instruction set, AND is programmed by an idiot who permits unverified update uploads, AND is connected to such a path.

The psionic artifact mode more adequately explains the universality of virus.

 

[BytePro]

Actually - a lot of that isn't far from what is happening in the real world - I was amazed to learn how ubiquitous ARM's architecture has become (even some Intel processors featured licensed design - XScale, IIRC; and Intel is licensed to produce ARM processors, though they've stated they won't - and AMD is being wooed). The fact that processors are designed by programs - there are just too many discrete parts for any human or group to handle, nowadays (and its been that way for decades for mainstream CPUs) - and that its cheaper and quicker to license (even poor designs) rather than 're-invent' the wheel, means there are a lot of dies with identical doping and traces (the physical aspects of semiconductors).

Software is even worse - I've seen code in the most widely used OSes in the world that date back nearly 40 years (and is not efficient - especially on today's architectures). The TCP/IP stack is a perfect example (~30 years). And designs from the 50's that have never been updated, not because they can't be improved, just as there is no market impulse to do so (or no investors).

However, its still a hokey as heck plot basis and I seriously doubt the authors of 'Virus' had any real notion of these things. o:

As one who's TU's didn't include Psionics, I'd probably still buy the psionics approach over a technical one - on the basis that a handwave is easier to accept than a RW basis for something so fantastic. (And it holds up better over RW time, not to mention doesn't require authors to be knowledgeable about technical subjects to avoid contradictions and absurd assumptions.)

(Just kidding - well mostly - never played anything but CT and not in the OTU - skipped all the other OTU as well - so I have no real idea about Virus other than tidbits on the board! )

 

[Erik Boielle]

I always said technical objections to Virus showed a stunning lack of imagination.

And if you look at things like Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase and view the Virus as a singularity event gone tragically wrong...

 

[aramis]

I always said technical objections to Virus showed a stunning lack of imagination.

And if you look at things like Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase and view the Virus as a singularity event gone tragically wrong...

I find THS and EP to be equally as implausible, if not more so.... they're not in the interests of the corporate bodies that dominate modern 1st world societies.

 

[Erik Boielle]

Well maybe. But things like filesharing and rampant piracy of everything in sight does at least ask questions of what will happen when/if the same thing happens to physical goods.

Or how the whole piracy thing will play out in the long run. It MAY turn out that our online and offline identies become sufficiently tracked that the piracy issue goes away. Or MAYBE something else will happen.

But mostly, when Eclipse Phase does insane AIs with mad hacking skillz everyone loves it, but when TNE did it twenty years ago we got nothing but issues.

Ahead of its time, I tells you!

 

[Dragoner]

Well maybe. But things like filesharing and rampant piracy of everything in sight does at least ask questions of what will happen when/if the same thing happens to physical goods.

Or how the whole piracy thing will play out in the long run. It MAY turn out that our online and offline identies become sufficiently tracked that the piracy issue goes away. Or MAYBE something else will happen.

But mostly, when Eclipse Phase does insane AIs with mad hacking skillz everyone loves it, but when TNE did it twenty years ago we got nothing but issues.

Ahead of its time, I tells you!

Except the way TNE did it is that everyone dies, a trillion trillions die! and then we're all back to dirt farmers? It didn't make sense and didn't come off as very sci-fi.

Then the Star Vikings running around in tights, what was up with that?

 

[BytePro]

Sounds like the difference between good fiction and bad - obviously a subjective thing... hence strong opinions (and probably not the best marketing strategy for a product with an existing fan base).

As to physical theft - uh, that has been around for a lot longer than nabster ... and is still much more prevalent than virtual and intellectual property theft. In the retail and commodities world it is referred to as 'shrink'. And it is huge (way bigger than pirated entertainment).

[Note - not familiar with Transhuman Space or Eclipse Phase.]