Online Petition

[Commander Drax]

In response to the news that Marc Miller/Mongoose will not be renewing QLI's licence to create T20 Materials, I would like to suggest that we create an online petition from those of us who would like to see the game have continued support further down the line. Perhaps Marc might decide to reverse this decision when he sees that T20 has lots of support from a fanbase. I think it's worth a try and we have nothing to lose, yet everthing to gain.

My reasons for suggesting this is that throughout their publishing history QLI's supplements and support materials not to mention the Traveller's handbook have always been well thought out, high quality with minimal errata and high production values. It would be a shame to see this go.

Also from a business point of view lots of people around the world are D20 gamers so a future market for a D20 version of traveller would continue to have mass appeal and the opportunity to continue growing in terms of fans and players alike. To not have a D20 version of traveller I think is a mistake.

Does anyone else agree? If so we need to discuss how we can set up a petition and at what level we should stop it at before sending it to Marc Miller.

 

[hunter]

Hehe go for it

 

[Gallowglacht]

Count me in.

 

[Berg]

Would Hunter/QLI be able to continue to make "T20" with a Mongoose license, or would they be forced to use the MGT rules...?

*I'd like more Gateway materials...

 

[jrmapes]

I too would hate to see the T20/QLI material go by the wayside. I am not a T20 player but use (scavenge) it liberally.

However it is difficult to gage from Hunters response where he stands in this. I mean it can be taken many ways - like "go for it"... its a done deal anyway so it wont matter. Does he even want to continue doing T20 material? Hard to tell from the response.

But if this is set in stone and/or Hunter is ready to take a long term hiatus from T20 then I have to ask... is it worth the effort?

Again, even I would hate to see T20 stop but I just can't get behind a big push to save it if there isn't really anything to save due to locked in deals and contracts.


Also what effect of no longer producing T20 will fall upon COTI? Will COTI close up shop as well?

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I run a pretty massive T20 game via PBEM, and I don't plan on stopping it anytime soon. The real shame is that T20 was really putting some cohesion into the Traveller franchise, after so many decades of disarray.

I always have thought that d20 is a perfect fit for Traveller. Gurps is a good system, and they had some good products for Traveller, but there is something better about having a character with a prior history as opposed to a higher character cost. The really good thing about the T20 was the way that it got a lot of the feel that CT had back in the day. It was a good mix of old and new.

At any rate the system used seems like a preference more than anything. What is to become of the "Traveller Experience" (ie: the whole OTU setup) remains to be seen. To be honest, I haven't even been really following the whole mongoose thing, as I've been too busy Reffing T20.

I'll sign, Drax, but maybe it it's time to say farewell to the OTU and come up with some new stuff, as Hunter seems to be doing. I've been working on my own "ATU" for some time now, and it would be weird to drop the "T",
but one can still hope it's got the "T" Spirit.

One more thing:
This Mongoose Deal makes Traveller the official "Village Bicycle" of RPG Liscences. I can only wonder what it would have been like had it been possible to let GDW keep doing it with other companies contributing. They had a good thing going there.

 

[hunter]

Well to me SciFi20 is in many ways the continuation of T20. It just doesn't carry the official Traveller stamp. In some ways that is good. We can do things now that were limited by carrying that stamp. It'd probably still be doing a revamp of the T20 rules even without the change in license. There are aspects of it the current rules I'm just not happy with. If the powers can be can be convinced to allow T20 to continue on, that's great (and I'd be all for!) but the only real change there is going to be that SciFi20 will be still be able to be called a Traveller ruleset

As for the OTU, I'd like to continue there. We've got 3 years left pretty much, so that's not out of the question and who is to say what may happen before the end of that 3 years.

We've still got 2320AD to work on and it hasn't been forgotten. We've had a few setbacks there, but everyone evolved is still very enthusiastic and it remains a great seller for us.

Other settings are good too. Frankly I've been wanting to develop a setting outside of Traveller, and I'm pretty interested in working with the fans in developing. Not sure how that may end up working or if it will, but it is something I want to give a look at.

I've always said that Traveller is both the rules and the setting, but more and more I think it is just more a style and feel of play and different 'rules' and different 'settings' I've seen have been able to handle it beyond the official GDW rules and the OTU. So hopefully, SciFi20 and whatever comes will still carry on with that Travelleresque 'feel' even if they don't carry the Traveller name.

 

[hunter]

For those not familiar, SciFi20 is a system I am working on to replace the current rules that power T20. I'm not happy with the bloat of the current rules and particularly with regard to characters and stat blocks.

SciFi20 is being developed as a stripped down and streamlined version of the T20 rules. Most of the stripping is being done in characters and combat. The design systems will pretty much stay the same, though I do plan on tweaking them as well. Folks who love the baseline d20 systems and don't like variants on it probably won't like it. Of course, I've already heard some resistance to some of the draft rules I've posted in Moot from T20 fans :devil: Then again, it's nothing like what I got when designing T20 in the first place :smirk:


As a GM, I freaking HATE the prep time required for d20 (and most other games honestly) so that's another goal in the streamlining. Ideally, you'd be able to generate a character of any level in 15 minutes even if you aren't familiar with the rules. Or at least that's my hope


Another pet project involved is being able to design adventures that can be easily run regardless of the actual level of the group. In other words, the difficulty of the adventure scales to meet the level of the group playing through it.

 

[Commander Drax]

It sounds great, I've seen some of the draft playtest files, on the moot and they are very good, seeming to natually have 'game balance' between the character classes is an excellent idea. As with regards to a T20 petition with hunter's permission can we start a signature thread in the T20 section of these boards that Marc could be directed to when say we've got 500 signatures or 1000 etc. If so I'll put my name in first when we get the ok!

 

[hunter]

It sounds great, I've seen some of the draft playtest files, on the moot and they are very good, seeming to natually have 'game balance' between the character classes is an excellent idea. As with regards to a T20 petition with hunter's permission can we start a signature thread in the T20 section of these boards that Marc could be directed to when say we've got 500 signatures or 1000 etc. If so I'll put my name in first when we get the ok!

Feel free to start a signature petition. If it works great, if not, I most certainly still can't tell you how much I appreciate the support!

 

[Kevin C. Livingston]

Allow me to add my voice to the many already calling for T20 continuation!

 

[Qstor2]

Hunter, there's 3 years left but what ABOUT Fighting ships of the Solomani or MORE Gateway material???????? Whats the ETA on these??????????????

Mike

 

[Commander Drax]

Right Guys, I've started a new thread on these boards entitled 'Save T20' please feel free to add your signature to it. Cheers...

 

[MJD]

As I said in another post (deleted because it contained information about non-Traveller products from Avenger, which constitutes spam... I consider my wrist slapped, or at least tapped warningly)... well, the relevant bit is:

Worthy though the idea of asking for exisiting Traveller licenses to continue (and I assume that Avenger's Traveller line is also considered worth saving???), common sense suggests that this would require changing a legal contract which Marc Miller has undoubtedly received money for. That's a bit of a can of worms.

I personally can't see it happening; the exclusivity deal was a part of Mongoose's plan and I can't see them agreeing to a change. So any petition is going to have to convince both Marc and Mongoose.

So.... do make sure that Mongoose know about this as well or it'll all be for naught. Contracts have to be changed at both ends to be legal, y'see. It MAY be possible to convince both parties to do this but I'm thinking some convincing arguments are going to be necessary.

In the end, this is going to come down to a business decision. While the fact that X number of fans vocally want something DOES translate into at least some kind of financial gain for the company, I suspect Mongoose will want some good concrete reasons to permit a rival to continue publishing a competing rules set.

If this is going to work, I'd suggest coming up with some solid commercial reasons to put in front of Mongoose. After all, they have to stay in business so their decisions have to be pragmatic rather than what-I'd-like, if that makes any sense.

 

[hunter]

Martin I moved your last post from the other thread to this one where it is more relevant.

 

[hunter]

As I said in another post (deleted because it contained information about non-Traveller products from Avenger, which constitutes spam... I consider my wrist slapped, or at least tapped warningly)... well, the relevant bit is:

Worthy though the idea of asking for exisiting Traveller licenses to continue (and I assume that Avenger's Traveller line is also considered worth saving???), common sense suggests that this would require changing a legal contract which Marc Miller has undoubtedly received money for. That's a bit of a can of worms.

Dunno, depends on the actual agreement they have as to whether it can be done.

And yes, Avenger's Traveller line is certainly considered worth saving. You've produced some great stuff as was to be expected!

I personally can't see it happening; the exclusivity deal was a part of Mongoose's plan and I can't see them agreeing to a change. So any petition is going to have to convince both Marc and Mongoose.

So.... do make sure that Mongoose know about this as well or it'll all be for naught. Contracts have to be changed at both ends to be legal, y'see. It MAY be possible to convince both parties to do this but I'm thinking some convincing arguments are going to be necessary.

In the end, this is going to come down to a business decision. While the fact that X number of fans vocally want something DOES translate into at least some kind of financial gain for the company, I suspect Mongoose will want some good concrete reasons to permit a rival to continue publishing a competing rules set.

If this is going to work, I'd suggest coming up with some solid commercial reasons to put in front of Mongoose. After all, they have to stay in business so their decisions have to be pragmatic rather than what-I'd-like, if that makes any sense.

I tend to agree that the situation is very unlikely to change, but hey you never know! If it does, that's great for everyone. If not, I certainly feel that Mongoose is going to do a credible job of carrying on, particularly since I understand that you will be doing some of the writing for them on the OTU material

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

I'm really disappointed by this. A stripped down T20, especially in chargen, sounds like a very sensible project.

 

[GypsyComet]

Considering their track record, there is a non-zero chance that Mongoose's Traveller license will be a moot point by the end of 2010.

At least one of their stated goals is flatly impossible. If 13 years of GDW's non-existence couldn't kill CT, MT, and TNE, no attempt by Mongoose to choke out support for those editions is going to succeed. T4 was a train wreck, has been out of print for a decade, and still has a fanbase. Those who don't like the Rebellion timeline jumped to GURPS, the one major license that isn't set to twilight. They aren't "coming back", either, even if G:T DID twilight.

Mongoose cannot "unify" the fanbase by force without causing a nasty backlash, and peaceful coexistence is against their stated goals and the known clauses of their license. The playtest feedback buzz I've seen is a spot-on match to every prior edition's playtest buzz back to TNE. The polarization is already well under way, and if history repeats itself, Mongoose's edition already has most of the fanbase it will ever have.

Even the portions of the Traveller experience that can be made edition neutral won't create more than a trickle of "unification". In the end, it's just more dilution.

Mongoose is welcome to prove me wrong, by the way.

 

[hunter]

For what it's worth I agree with you GC. The only thing it does is force those who don't want to convert to adapt any new stuff they can to fit their old preferences.

I think Mongoose would have done just as well had the licenses that currently exist were allowed to continue and renew, but restricted to the current areas and systems with regard to Traveller. So we could keep on supporting T20 and Gateway carrying the Traveller name, Avenger could do TNE, SJG with GT, etc.

Frankly Mongoose isn't going to steal those people back. They will get sales from them to check out the new stuff and see what they can use, but they will go back to their old preferences. They would be doing that whether Mongoose had the only license or not. What Mongoose will pull are the CT fanatics, because their rules are damn close to CT from what I hear (I actually haven't looked at the drafts).

But its not my license so I just go with the flow I'm not upset about and I can see why Mongoose wanted the exclusive even though you and I and every other Traveller fan knows it ain't gonna work out that way. Mongoose will do very well. I have no doubts about that. And they are going to do a decent job I do believe.

 

[MJD]

I don't believe that the MongTrav target audience is CT fans or any other sort of Traveller fans, as such. I think the target audience is anyone who takes a look at 'the new SF game from Mongoose'. If existing Traveller fans want to get it, great. If not, also great.

The horribly fractured Traveller fanbase with its entrenched internal divisions isn't the place to look for sales for MongTrav. It has to find a wider audience than one or two factions within the existing fanbase if it's to succeed.

I don't know if it will, but the point here is that some Traveller fans think that Mongoose Traveller 'belongs' to them and must surely follow their own vision of whichever set of tweaks, versions etc they like.

I suspect that instead Mongoose will produce a game they believe in and then let anyone who wants it come and get it. After the dummy-spitting is over, some exisiting fans may well get aboard but they're not the target audience.