Online Petition
- Thread starter Commander Drax
- Start date
As a GM, I freaking HATE the prep time required for d20 (and most other games honestly) so that's another goal in the streamlining. Ideally, you'd be able to generate a character of any level in 15 minutes even if you aren't familiar with the rules. Or at least that's my hope
Having just written a D20 module, Thieves of Badabaskor, any thing you can do to reduce prep time while keeping the flavor of the rules would be welcomed in my department.
Rob Conley
Commander Drax
SOC-12
Originally Posted by MJD
...I assume that Avenger's Traveller line is also considered worth saving...
Let me say that Avenger's stuff is definately worth saving, though with all of the focus on QLI's licence being revoked I wasn't aware that Avenger was in the same boat, I perhaps, like a lot of other people thought that Avenger's licence was secure and in place for the future.
With regards to the other issues discussed in this thread, if Mongoose manages to bring new blood into the traveller universe I think that's a good thing for all, concerned. Also I don't see why Mongoose needs to be worried about the competition, they could sublicence specific milieus or regions of the Traveller universe to other providers, with them retaining full control of the OTU.
I work in the I.T. industry and have gained more from collaborating with competitors than competing with them. Also releasing traveller as an OGL licenced game encourage more competition (at least in terms of application of rules) to spring up than non OGL games, you've only got to look at D20 products to see that.
...I assume that Avenger's Traveller line is also considered worth saving...
Let me say that Avenger's stuff is definately worth saving, though with all of the focus on QLI's licence being revoked I wasn't aware that Avenger was in the same boat, I perhaps, like a lot of other people thought that Avenger's licence was secure and in place for the future.
With regards to the other issues discussed in this thread, if Mongoose manages to bring new blood into the traveller universe I think that's a good thing for all, concerned. Also I don't see why Mongoose needs to be worried about the competition, they could sublicence specific milieus or regions of the Traveller universe to other providers, with them retaining full control of the OTU.
I work in the I.T. industry and have gained more from collaborating with competitors than competing with them. Also releasing traveller as an OGL licenced game encourage more competition (at least in terms of application of rules) to spring up than non OGL games, you've only got to look at D20 products to see that.
Rhialto the Marvelous
SOC-13
I think Martin is spot on re. target audiences for Mongoose Traveller. And IMO that is an argument for *continuing* T20 and indeed all other Ts out there.
The Mongoose fans will buy MongTrav because it's a Mongoose game. The Traveller fans will buy *anything* Traveller-related (and bitch about it, but that's irrelevant for the matter at hand). Who among us hasn't bought Avenger, QLI, and GURPS material? We will (probably) buy MongTrav, just as we would continue to buy everything else.
The Mongoose fans will buy MongTrav because it's a Mongoose game. The Traveller fans will buy *anything* Traveller-related (and bitch about it, but that's irrelevant for the matter at hand). Who among us hasn't bought Avenger, QLI, and GURPS material? We will (probably) buy MongTrav, just as we would continue to buy everything else.
Kharum1
SOC-12
I don't think you will get an answer to this question anytime soon.
As much as I don't like the D20 mechanic (and by extension T20), QLI has offered some outstanding augmentations to the Traveller cannon and I would like to see them continue. Shutting out an important licencee such as QLI is sheer arrogance of fandom...while that would not be precident setting in Traveller's history, it is hoped that we can learn from our mistakes rather than keep repeating them.
That's an interesting post. Factual too as far as it goes, but...
Many, perhaps even virtually all, of the additions to Traveller canon published by QLI were written/co-written/invented/co-invented/developed/co-developed or whatever by, well, me. I then went off and did same with Avenger.
I'm not wanting to take away credit from anyone, but I would be ever so pleased if, just occasionally, somebody remembered that I had a hand or at least a finger from the second phalanx down in many of these products.
People have noticed how much I grouse about this but never come out and say it, so here it is. Suffice to say that when someone posts 'Great Book Hunter! You're My HERO!!!' or whatever about something I spent months developing and typing words for... well, it eventually begins to gall me. As I say, not trying to take anything away from Hunter for his contribution but it would be so nice if folks remembered my part in things... at least on the rare occasions where I didn't do something they hate.
Case in point here - there's a big petition being created to SAVE T20! It'd be sheer arrogance to let that happen (stealing your line Kafka...) So what about Avenger? We publish Traveller too.
You know, I don't care one way or the other if folks don't care enough about Avenger to include us in the petition or even mention we exist. But if you're going to give the excellent work published as a reason for continuing the license, can we at least have credit where credit's due?
Or am I no longer in the photograph? (That's a not very obscure historical reference, for those who missed it).
Mind, this is nothing compared to the supposed friend of mine who has a 'here is my book' section on his website that fails to even mention that not only was it a joint project but I did 90% of the research and all the writing. Found the publisher. Sold them the concept. Arranged the photography. Organised the foreword. You get the idea.
Sigh. I'm tired of being invisible.
Many, perhaps even virtually all, of the additions to Traveller canon published by QLI were written/co-written/invented/co-invented/developed/co-developed or whatever by, well, me. I then went off and did same with Avenger.
I'm not wanting to take away credit from anyone, but I would be ever so pleased if, just occasionally, somebody remembered that I had a hand or at least a finger from the second phalanx down in many of these products.
People have noticed how much I grouse about this but never come out and say it, so here it is. Suffice to say that when someone posts 'Great Book Hunter! You're My HERO!!!' or whatever about something I spent months developing and typing words for... well, it eventually begins to gall me. As I say, not trying to take anything away from Hunter for his contribution but it would be so nice if folks remembered my part in things... at least on the rare occasions where I didn't do something they hate.
Case in point here - there's a big petition being created to SAVE T20! It'd be sheer arrogance to let that happen (stealing your line Kafka...) So what about Avenger? We publish Traveller too.
You know, I don't care one way or the other if folks don't care enough about Avenger to include us in the petition or even mention we exist. But if you're going to give the excellent work published as a reason for continuing the license, can we at least have credit where credit's due?
Or am I no longer in the photograph? (That's a not very obscure historical reference, for those who missed it).
Mind, this is nothing compared to the supposed friend of mine who has a 'here is my book' section on his website that fails to even mention that not only was it a joint project but I did 90% of the research and all the writing. Found the publisher. Sold them the concept. Arranged the photography. Organised the foreword. You get the idea.
Sigh. I'm tired of being invisible.
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
Virtually all? Out of 22 products released your name appears on 9. Your contribution was considerable, the most by any single person. Do not think I am saying otherwise. But it was hardly 'virtually all' as you claim. Doing so IS taking credit away from everyone else that has contributed. You certainly do deserve the credit for the work you have done, and great work it was! But please don't try and make it sound as if you did it all. You did not.
As for the rest of your post, honestly I recommend the use of the Edit Post feature, but that's up to you...
:nonono:
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
I wasn't thinking in terms of Travellers aide volumes (of which, yes, I only wrote a fraction; Thomas Jones-Low, Shane McLean and Ben Bell jump to mind for the rest I think).
What I was referring to what that I was *involved* in virtually every major addition to the Traveller canon, either as line editor at the time the product was produced or else as the originator of the idea, the writer of the book or whatever.
I'm not trying to make it sound like I did it all. I'm just trying to point out that I actually did some of it. I seem to get forgotten about a lot. I have noticed that when folks post 'Great book Hunter, you did a fine job on that one' referring to, say, the Gateway Domain Sourcebook there's no great rush to remind anyone of my contribution to that.
I'm also not just referring to additions to the canon published by QLI. The entire 1248 era setting is my invention, pretty much, although a lot of it is obviously extrapolated from the work of others.
Point is, folks are talking about the great contributions to the Traveller canon and as usual I fall off the radar. When I try to address that, suddenly I'm trying to steal all the credit.
Truth is, I'm not. It's just that, well, you know how the Internet is. Say something often enough and it passes into the common perception as 'true'. I've been tarred with various brushes in the past, often undeservedly, and what I'm seeing is a new 'truth', which is more negative than anything else, ie my contribution is forgotten about.
So here we are. Folks are creating a petition to save T20, and I'm stood on the sideline being ignored. 'Hey,' I say, 'I also produce Traveller materials. I'm also worth saving.'
And the response is a resounding 'Who're you again? What did you write?'
In truth I wrote all of, most of, contributed significantly to or was editor for:
T20 Rulebook (editor/additional material)
T20 Lite
TA1
TA2
All the other TAs as line editor; various degrees of involvement
Diaspora Phoenix
T20 Players Book
Gateway to Destiny
Sydymic Outworlds
Kursis Charter
The only QLI traveller products I can think of offhand that I didn't have SOME involvement with (usually a fair bit) were Odyssey and the Ref's screen (though I did the adventure that went in it).
With Avenger:
1248 Out of the Darkness
1248 Bearers of the Flame
Early Fallen
Bowman Arm
2 Bowman Arm world books (editor)
Call of the Wild
Range War
Grand Fleet
Various Speical Supplements, eg Guns, Gadgets and Gear
Yesterday's Hero
With Steve Jackson Games: as Co-author:
Behind the Claw
Starmercs
With Imperium Games: Co-Author
The Khiidkar Incident
With Mongoose Publishing:
Spinward Marches Sourcebook (and yes, it still needs a final title).
This doesn't count oddments and minor stuff, accepted but unpublished works and the like.
And yet, somehow, despite all this, my involvement seems to get forgotten about. I normally mutter sourly about it and leave it at that, but right now recognition is important to me, especially if there are moves afoot to petition for renewable licenses.
Imagine if everyone clamoured, Marc and Matt listened, and QLI got their license renewed - and Avenger did not, because I contented myself to remain off the radar where I'd fallen.
So no, I'm not looking for other people's credit.
I'd like mine though, if that's alright.
What I was referring to what that I was *involved* in virtually every major addition to the Traveller canon, either as line editor at the time the product was produced or else as the originator of the idea, the writer of the book or whatever.
I'm not trying to make it sound like I did it all. I'm just trying to point out that I actually did some of it. I seem to get forgotten about a lot. I have noticed that when folks post 'Great book Hunter, you did a fine job on that one' referring to, say, the Gateway Domain Sourcebook there's no great rush to remind anyone of my contribution to that.
I'm also not just referring to additions to the canon published by QLI. The entire 1248 era setting is my invention, pretty much, although a lot of it is obviously extrapolated from the work of others.
Point is, folks are talking about the great contributions to the Traveller canon and as usual I fall off the radar. When I try to address that, suddenly I'm trying to steal all the credit.
Truth is, I'm not. It's just that, well, you know how the Internet is. Say something often enough and it passes into the common perception as 'true'. I've been tarred with various brushes in the past, often undeservedly, and what I'm seeing is a new 'truth', which is more negative than anything else, ie my contribution is forgotten about.
So here we are. Folks are creating a petition to save T20, and I'm stood on the sideline being ignored. 'Hey,' I say, 'I also produce Traveller materials. I'm also worth saving.'
And the response is a resounding 'Who're you again? What did you write?'
In truth I wrote all of, most of, contributed significantly to or was editor for:
T20 Rulebook (editor/additional material)
T20 Lite
TA1
TA2
All the other TAs as line editor; various degrees of involvement
Diaspora Phoenix
T20 Players Book
Gateway to Destiny
Sydymic Outworlds
Kursis Charter
The only QLI traveller products I can think of offhand that I didn't have SOME involvement with (usually a fair bit) were Odyssey and the Ref's screen (though I did the adventure that went in it).
With Avenger:
1248 Out of the Darkness
1248 Bearers of the Flame
Early Fallen
Bowman Arm
2 Bowman Arm world books (editor)
Call of the Wild
Range War
Grand Fleet
Various Speical Supplements, eg Guns, Gadgets and Gear
Yesterday's Hero
With Steve Jackson Games: as Co-author:
Behind the Claw
Starmercs
With Imperium Games: Co-Author
The Khiidkar Incident
With Mongoose Publishing:
Spinward Marches Sourcebook (and yes, it still needs a final title).
This doesn't count oddments and minor stuff, accepted but unpublished works and the like.
And yet, somehow, despite all this, my involvement seems to get forgotten about. I normally mutter sourly about it and leave it at that, but right now recognition is important to me, especially if there are moves afoot to petition for renewable licenses.
Imagine if everyone clamoured, Marc and Matt listened, and QLI got their license renewed - and Avenger did not, because I contented myself to remain off the radar where I'd fallen.
So no, I'm not looking for other people's credit.
I'd like mine though, if that's alright.
Before anyone gets excited, read the words. I've not said I wrote books I didn't - looking up the author's name isn't hard - what I've said is that I had significant involvement in all those books. Quite often I did write all or most of the text.
I've also said, and I stand by this, that I was involved in virtually every major contribution to canon in QLI works. Some I invented, some bounced around several people including me, some I just agreed with, or didn't disagree violently enough to demand it not be included.
Like I said, I'm not claiming that all the credit is mine and that I wrote everything. I'm merely pointing out that I was involved, which is (apparently) often forgotten.
I've also said, and I stand by this, that I was involved in virtually every major contribution to canon in QLI works. Some I invented, some bounced around several people including me, some I just agreed with, or didn't disagree violently enough to demand it not be included.
Like I said, I'm not claiming that all the credit is mine and that I wrote everything. I'm merely pointing out that I was involved, which is (apparently) often forgotten.
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Anyhow, this has gone way off topic, possibly because it's 2AM.
Point is, Kafka mentioned that QLI was worth saving because if its important contributions to Traveller canon. I just wanted to make sure that the people doing the petitioning know that I was involved in virtually all if not all of those contributions* and the company I now publish my contributions to canon through might also be worth saving. As already noted, at least one person didn't know we (avenger) were in a similar position.
*I can't think of any significant QLI-pubished additions to the Traveller canon that I wasn't at least peripherally involved with. I'm not talking about a world writeup or a grav car design, I mean new or altered concepts, significant changes and additions. A couple, like the Ursa, I came to after initial creation but I was involved in the development process. Can't think of anything where I wasn't.
That said, if I get up tomorrow morning to a huge list of things I've forgotten about I won't be surprised....
Point is, Kafka mentioned that QLI was worth saving because if its important contributions to Traveller canon. I just wanted to make sure that the people doing the petitioning know that I was involved in virtually all if not all of those contributions* and the company I now publish my contributions to canon through might also be worth saving. As already noted, at least one person didn't know we (avenger) were in a similar position.
*I can't think of any significant QLI-pubished additions to the Traveller canon that I wasn't at least peripherally involved with. I'm not talking about a world writeup or a grav car design, I mean new or altered concepts, significant changes and additions. A couple, like the Ursa, I came to after initial creation but I was involved in the development process. Can't think of anything where I wasn't.
That said, if I get up tomorrow morning to a huge list of things I've forgotten about I won't be surprised....
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
Ok, so if I follow all of this, somehow a fan asking to start a petition to allow the T20 license to continue on past the current end date shows a lack of acknowledgement of your contributions to Traveller by the fans...
Got it.
Now that you've had your chance to vent, drop it. And that isn't a suggestion. Plenty in this thread have already willingly acknowledged your considerable contributions to Traveller and the QLI line. There is no need to continue to rail on about how you are not given enough credit. You are free to start a new thread on the subject of your perceived lack of credit if you'd like but do not continue to derail this thread.
If you'd like to get Avenger and the TNE material added to the petition, ask the person who posted the petition. It's up to them.
Got it.
Now that you've had your chance to vent, drop it. And that isn't a suggestion. Plenty in this thread have already willingly acknowledged your considerable contributions to Traveller and the QLI line. There is no need to continue to rail on about how you are not given enough credit. You are free to start a new thread on the subject of your perceived lack of credit if you'd like but do not continue to derail this thread.
If you'd like to get Avenger and the TNE material added to the petition, ask the person who posted the petition. It's up to them.
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
It would be nice to think that QLI could maintain a Traveller license but in the meantime I'd like to ask a question about the future for QLI and SciFi20 in particular.
Will SF20 retain any of the quite Traveller specific material, I am thinking in particular about the world building aspects, UWP and 2D hex mapping though what other stuff is retained from T20 will also be of interest?
Will SF20 retain any of the quite Traveller specific material, I am thinking in particular about the world building aspects, UWP and 2D hex mapping though what other stuff is retained from T20 will also be of interest?
Gallowglacht
SOC-12
Well, I like to see a petition to save T20 as an acknowledgement of the work of everyone who contributed to it. But CotI is a T20 forum so there is nothing unusual in a T20 only petition. Comstar should/can have a petition for Avenger.
On a lighter note, am I the only one tempted to post "no, I'm Spartacus" in the actual petition thread?
On a lighter note, am I the only one tempted to post "no, I'm Spartacus" in the actual petition thread?
Border Reiver
SOC-14 1K
I tried that once on a forum, well paraphrased it. I got banned.:smirk:
I still think it was funny but that particular forum has some of the worst double standards of any rpg forum so my banning really didn't make any difference.o:
Oh and yes, very tempted.
I still think it was funny but that particular forum has some of the worst double standards of any rpg forum so my banning really didn't make any difference.
o:Oh and yes, very tempted.
I tried to make a point, was misunderstood, tried to explain... apparently failed again, and we've now reached the point where things are so mangled that nobody is going to get what I was originally saying. I'd like to try to explain (because the reason Hunter gave above isn't quite correct) but I've been told to drop it.
Compliant with the instructions of the forum owner, I am abandoning the topic.
Compliant with the instructions of the forum owner, I am abandoning the topic.
Droptrooper.
SOC-10
Chip?
Quite right, there is plenty of room for you to state your case on this thread where people like malenfant can carry on his campaign against Hunter, Marc and anyone else that happens not to agree with his opinion. At least there you'll be free to make your case to a loyal audience. :smirk:
QLI have contributed greatly to Traveller and T20 is a pretty good ruleset (but by no means perfect). Many individuals have contributed to its success and why should the boss not get the credit for bringing it all together, everyone is quick to condemn when he fails to deliver. :nonono:
Quite right, there is plenty of room for you to state your case on this thread where people like malenfant can carry on his campaign against Hunter, Marc and anyone else that happens not to agree with his opinion. At least there you'll be free to make your case to a loyal audience. :smirk:
QLI have contributed greatly to Traveller and T20 is a pretty good ruleset (but by no means perfect). Many individuals have contributed to its success and why should the boss not get the credit for bringing it all together, everyone is quick to condemn when he fails to deliver. :nonono:
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