• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Operational Level Gaming

Ulsyus

SOC-14 1K
Baron
So it occurred to me that there's a lot of discussion about HG vessels, but the abstract nature of that system takes no notice of the manoeuvre that would occur before an engagement begins.

There's also plenty of discussion about pirates and corsairs, but it occurs to me that they need to hide somewhere or vector in on their prey from a pre-existing point.

All of this would involve movement around and within a solar system. That's an operational level thing. Has anyone played a campaign doing that within a system?

The old Ad Astra game High Trader had a map for this sort of thing, which you can see here. I think the old Sierra Madre game High Frontiers had a similar sort of thing. That made players think about how they were going to manoeuvre about a system, rather than just allowing them to point and go.
 
IIRC you offered to run such a game but using your house ruled variant of HG.

Run it by the rules as written and I'd be on for trying it.

Such a game would boil down to build a fleet and then decide which elements of the fleet go to locations within the system.

Opposing forces can then decide to engage or avoid combat and move to another location - fuel permitting.

Since an invading force can find fuel from comets then the out system 'box' becomes free refuelling for anyone. The recent data from Pluto shows it could be used as a refuelling point.
 
(shrug) no, not a house-rule variant of hg, rather a stub combat system. the point was to study the effects of jump itself rather than any particular combat system. that's why I named the thread "jump".
 
(blink) ok, but it would need at least four people who expressed an interest simultaneously in order to be valid. leitz and oit said they were interested at one point, you're the third, would need one more assuming the first two still are. if four present themselves I'll draw up the graphics (mostly done already) and publish the ruleset for discussion, and we'll give it a go.
 
The questions would be:

1: the setting... OTU or nonOTU?
2: A one off set of battles or a true recreation of a war (OTU) or full scale war (nonOTU)?
3: teams or free for all?
 
generic setting.

the focus would be jump's effects on strategy and planning. space war, no planetary invasions, entire systems (including outer) (seven total), all system targets in continuous orbit update. I envision it as including ship construction resources and construction times, but it need not be so.

two teams of two, minimum. no point in running anything less. two teams of three would be better but might be all I can handle, depending on how it goes.

I would handle all graphics and updates. players would only make decisions - build this/that, go here/there, attack/don't.
 
Last edited:
1: the setting... OTU or nonOTU?
2: A one off set of battles or a true recreation of a war (OTU) or full scale war (nonOTU)?
3: teams or free for all?

generic setting.

the focus would be jump's effects on strategy and planning. space war, no planetary invasions, entire systems (including outer) (seven total), all system targets in continuous orbit update. I envision it as including ship construction resources and construction times, but it need not be so.

two teams of two, minimum. no point in running anything less. two teams of three would be better but might be all I can handle, depending on how it goes.

I would handle all graphics and updates. players would only make decisions - build this/that, go here/there, attack/don't.

I am rather interested. Let us see who else is interested.

But let us set a time line to pull the trigger to star things.
 
Last edited:
The only problem will be the Min/Max effect for Trillion Credit Squadron, and the "to hit breaks" at 1,999 tons, 19,999 tons, and 74,999 tons.
 
First we would need a setting... and I would recommend 4 sectors (which one could do with the the T5 sector making program)...

Could I recommend that we start with TL 10 or 11?

Second there needs to be initial setting issues... with initial-
a) military budget.
b) commercial budget (for merchant ship fleet and this ought to significantly even at the start out number military forces)
c) budget for tech development

Perhaps for the latter two one could use the logic of Imperium?
 
I think I'll have to make it five systems for the first game. maybe if it goes well and I'm not overwhelmed then two more systems will be "discovered".

("four sectors"? no.)
 
The only problem will be the Min/Max effect for Trillion Credit Squadron, and the "to hit breaks" at 1,999 tons, 19,999 tons, and 74,999 tons.

The combat system is specifically set to "stub" so the players cannot count on any combat being resolved by players, let alone designing to meet a specific combat system's break points.

My take is that this is a take on the old Traveller PBM that was out for a few turns some years ago where you started with NO ships and built them turn by turn and he wanted to experiment with how the assumptions around the 18 hr jump arrival window affected design and player's actions in positioning ships for arrival into the system and to defend the system.
 
Just to throw a curveball in "concepts" here...

One thing I always wondered at an operational/strategic level was this:

How do Starports figure into this when having to deal with the following:

Commercial Ship maintenance
Commercial ship building program
Warship maintenance
Warship Building program

Then came the issue of "how many dTons of hull are required to transport freight/cargo throughout the Traveller Sector?"

If you think about it, ships are sort of like people in a demographical sense in that ships are born, live out their lives, and then die (Metaphorically speaking). They're built, are used for a purpose, and then eventually are either destroyed or scrapped when no longer useful.

So, how many ships are there in any given sector? Traveller after all of these years, has NEVER once answered that question. Presumably, because that is the domain of the GM right? But until GURPS TRAVELLER: FAR TRADER came out, we didn't even have a way of determining how many dTons of freight/cargo were being shipped from one location to another...

Now imagine this if you will...

Each 2 week period of maintenance ties up 2 weeks worth of ship production capacity at a ship yard. A 200 dton ship being maintained by the starport crew means that crew (and facility!) is not producing any construction towards a new ship. So, for example, fifty 200 dton hulls being put into maintenance, counts as utilizing 200 dton's worth of ship construction facilities for 1 year.

Then you need to break a ship down. What kind of sophant (almost said human here!) resources are required to do that?

Then you need new hulls to replace those hulls lost due to damage, accident, old age, or hostile action.

In the end - there has to be SOME way of being able to run a simulation where the key to how much activity can occur, is based upon the Star Port itself, the population that runs it (from the rules on how much capacity a star port has) and how they all interact with each other.

Tramp freighters go where they will without any real "rhyme nor reason". Imagine a GM telling a player who is the captain of a tramp freighter "Um, at present, maintenance resources are booked solid until two months from now. Why not try that Class B starport in the next system, they might have some openings available?"

GURPS TRAVELLER STARSHIPS had an interesting rule that I rather liked. It stated that Class A and B starports could conduct maintenance in the standard 2 weeks. Class C or less starports took longer, and where there were no official star port facilities (such as a class X starport), the crew could conduct its own maintenance provided they had the spare parts already purchased and in the ship's hold.

THESE kind of rules are the kinds I wish had been laid down when TRAVELLER first came into being. Even if no one wanted to flesh out a Sector's worth of information to this level, I wish that the rules allowing GMs who wanted to do that, existed from the getgo. I know I would have gone through the effort to make that kind of detail available for myself for my Traveller games. This way, I could have customized the ship encounters for each star system based upon trade conditions. I would have customized my own "earnings schedule" for merchant ships based on the idea that if a ship can't make a "living" (Ie survive!) running freight to system Alpha because there wasn't enough cargo/freight to make it worth the standard fee of 1,000 credits per dTon - then, in order for a ship to survive going there, it might have to charge 4,000 credits per Dton to deliver to there and to take shipments out from there.

Do the math. If you have laser rifles that cost 100 credits per, and you can ship 100 units per dTon - the cost increase for the laser rifle (when you include the shipping cost) at 1,000 credits per Dton, makes each individual Rifle cost a further 100 credits (initial cost of the unit) plus 1000/100 or 10 credits. A laser rifle that costs 110 credits after accounting for shipping costs isn't TOO far from one that costs 140 credits due to the increased cost for shipping.

So - we need rules for freight generation based upon a world's infrastructure and tech level and population. If that world is a net importer, we need for the rules to show how much extra it will try and import. We need rules for variable income based upon conditions at any given world. GURPS FAR TRADER introduced the concept where a captain could bid upon freight lots, and have a standard going rate at that star system. THAT is simple enough to implement in any Traveller simulation.

In all, POCKET EMPIRES (and it seems that T5 benefitted from some of those concepts) plus GURPS FAR TRADER plus some of the maintenance rules elsewhere - would (in my opinion) be worth compiling into a single set of rules for use with maintaining a Traveller Universe. There probably wouldn't be a HIGH demand for such a product, which is why it might never see the light of day. On the other hand, someone such as myself willing to take rules from multiple sources and building a hybrid set of rules for my own use is a viable undertaking. It might even be worth turning into its own thread where people propose their own ideas, or build upon what is in the thread, to propose ways of making the rules mesh together in a coherent whole.

Just a thought.
 
In all, POCKET EMPIRES (and it seems that T5 benefitted from some of those concepts) plus GURPS FAR TRADER plus some of the maintenance rules elsewhere - would (in my opinion) be worth compiling into a single set of rules for use with maintaining a Traveller Universe. There probably wouldn't be a HIGH demand for such a product, which is why it might never see the light of day. On the other hand, someone such as myself willing to take rules from multiple sources and building a hybrid set of rules for my own use is a viable undertaking. It might even be worth turning into its own thread where people propose their own ideas, or build upon what is in the thread, to propose ways of making the rules mesh together in a coherent whole.

It's always been a part that's lacking, modeling the economy. Gross Planetary Product, trade volumes, etc.

On the one hand, we have difficulty imagining interstellar trade at all. At least I do.

Most of our trade is based on one of three broad components: resources, labor, intellectual property. Resources, as in raw materials: ore, oil, agriculture. Labor, where items are manufactured and traded solely because of the cost of production, not because they can't be made someplace else. Intellectual property, basically things that are a competitive advantage and not traded. Things that could be made "anywhere" if they "only knew how" or "were allowed to make them" due to IP laws (patents, copyright, etc.).

With the scope of a typical, mature planet, it's hard to imagine the increased costs of trade are worth it save for the most exotic of items vs something that can be done locally. With an automated workforce, do we really envision "3rd world" star systems in the future that are able to export labor? We could import more "Rare Earth" elements, but how much of that do we really need? How much grain and meat do we need to import vs grow locally?

Clearly, trade happens. But I don't think trade is cheaper or more efficient than local production. Not in the long term. Of course there are edge cases, heavily industrialized and populated world, from which, for whatever reason, populations don't emigrate. Where it's better to pave over yet more land and import agriculture. It's even to imagine that on a small scale (Manhattan Island for example), it's just difficult for me to grasp it at a planetary scale.

For we also have another issue, here on Earth we have instantaneous communication. I can pick up the phone or send an email and have something sent from China tomorrow, and have it here tomorrow. Communication tied with travel will be a hinderance. it won't stop trade, of course, but it certainly will provide a preference to operate locally vs importing something. Gives a motivation for industry to host locally.

So, it's just difficult (for me) to get a real handle on how much trade will happen between worlds. Mind, I also have a problem with why the TL hasn't spread more uniformly. I would think, especially in a Pocket Empire scenario, normalization of TL would be a priority.

We tend to treat planets as countries, and I just don't think that's the right way to do it. The resources of countries are certainly limited (e.g. Japan and fossil fuels), but that's because of artificial borders. But at a planetary scale, that's just not the case. Arguably not all planets had Dinosaurs to convert in to fossil fuels, but by a similar point, by the time we're populating the stars, we'll be beyond fossil fuels.

It would be very interesting to see "Sim-Sector". To come up with models of import and export, modeling demand, seeing economic growth, figuring out GPP. I know how the universe looks when I play 4X games like MOO 2. Garden worlds exporting food, ship building worlds with lots of industry, a few isolated research worlds.

But it would be neat to see a more complicated model than the 2 party model in GT:FT. To try and see how much trade organically develops. See what the real volumes are.
 
Back
Top