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Prize Money

Vladika

SOC-14 1K
In questions of Prize Money:

Under US Constitution Article 1 Section 8, it is still theoretically possible for Congress to authorize Letters of Marque.

The United States continued paying prizes to naval officers in the Spanish-American War, and only abjured the practice by statute during World War I. The U.S. prize courts adjudicated no cases resulting from its own takings in either World War I or World War II (although the Supreme Court did rule on a German prize - the Appam - that was brought to and held at Hampton Roads).

Russia, Portugal, Germany, Japan, China, Romania, and France followed the United States in World War I, declaring they would no longer pay prize money to naval officers.

November 9, 1914, the British and French governments signed an agreement establishing government jurisdiction over prizes captured by either of them.

The Russian government acceded to this agreement on March 5, 1915, and the Italian government followed suit on January 15, 1917.

Shortly before World War II France passed a law which allowed for taking prizes, as did Holland and Norway, a prospect to which the Nazi invasion quickly put an end. Britain formally ended the eligibility of naval officers to share in prize money in 1948.

Under contemporary international law and treaties, nations may still bring enemy vessels before their prize courts, to be condemned and sold. But no nation now offers a share to the officers or crew who risked their lives in the capture.

The British paid out (commonwealth nations shared in this):

...more than £20,000,000 ..., but the sharing, out took ten years. Payments varied from £3000 to-admirals to £25 to able seamen. This time admirals would receive less and able seamen more. (based on Napoleonic precedents)

This was "across the board" men who did the actual sinking or capturing of enemy ships would not be paid "extra". Conditions of modern' war had rendered that custom' obsolete.



Last US Navy prize money awarded.

The USS Omaha (CL-4) and the German commerce raider Odenwald, prior to the US entry into World War II, on 6 November 1941.

An admiralty court ruled that since the ship was illegally claiming American registration, there was sufficient grounds for confiscation. A legal case was started claiming that the crews of the two American ships had salvage rights because Odenwald's crew attempting to scuttle the ship was the equivalent of abandoning her. The court case - settled in 1947 - ruled the members of the boarding party and the prize crew were entitled to $3,000 apiece while all the other crewmen in Omaha and Somers were entitled to two months’ pay and allowances. This was the last prize money awarded by the US Navy."

In this case it was less "prize" and more "salvage"
 
I had thought that the issuance of such letters was forbidden by treaty. However my wikifu says that the US was not a signatory to the Paris Declaration of 1856. which tried to outlaw the practice.
 
Enlightenment navies operated under different conditions then the current ones, navy pay wasn't that great, life was hard and you get put into harm's way a lot of the time.

The British view on this is that it instilled aggressiveness in it's men and officers, giving them an incentive to capture and bring home enemy vessels, for which the Admiralty would assess a fair market value.

Wood floats, metal doesn't usually, and modern weapon systems tend to sink any prizes. Also, pay scales have risen in order to retain a professional cadre.

However, this is Traveller, spaceships don't usually sink in anything but a gravity well, and you'd like to incentivize your protagonists to do some boarding.
 
In these scenarios everyone is human.

Prize money will need to be broken down by race.

A K'kree vessel may not have the value of a pirate ship or another race in the Imperium. Some species vessels can be updated, renamed and resold while others cannot. This will require a race modifier.
 
The US has issued bounties for foreign nationals for crimes not committed in nor against the US far more recently. (Specifically, in the "War on Terror".) It didn't allow US service members to claim those bounties.

Conceptually, I don't really see much conceptual difference between issuing a bounty and issuing a letter of marque.
 
The US has issued bounties for foreign nationals for crimes not committed in nor against the US far more recently. (Specifically, in the "War on Terror".) It didn't allow US service members to claim those bounties.

Conceptually, I don't really see much conceptual difference between issuing a bounty and issuing a letter of marque.

A letter of marque condones and validates the holder of said letter possessing and using means of force at a magnitude greater than personal weaponry (personal weaponry being more typical for someone seeking to collect a bounty on an individual target) - which suggests a set of conditions very much unlike 21st century Earth.
 
The articles from Challenge 38 named Boarding Party and Prize Court are (IMHO) a must Reading for this discussion (at least its application to Traveller), should anyone of you not have read them.
 
The articles from Challenge 38 named Boarding Party and Prize Court are (IMHO) a must Reading for this discussion (at least its application to Traveller), should anyone of you not have read them.

Without violating copyright, could you give us a brief rundown?
 
Without violating copyright, could you give us a brief rundown?

Prize Court (pages 25-27 of the issue) explained how prizes and its selling are regulated in the Imperium, while Boarding Party (pages 28-30) was just an adventure about capturing a Broadsword Mercenary Cruiser (AKA type C) and taking it to port as prize crew, and try to receive the prize from the Navy...

That's why I said it's a must (mostly Prize Court)
 
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One thing to bear in mind when deciding on prize money in a Traveller campaign is that the relative cost of ships to the number of crewmembers is about 60 to 100 times greater than the relative cost of ships to crew in the 21st Century. I did some calculations once. I don't have the figures for Age of Sail ships, but some captains and admirals did become independently wealthy from prize money. Imagine how rich people can get from the value of Traveller starships.

(IMTU governments pay a bounty of one percent of the value of captured ships and this is shared out like prize money was shared out in the Age of Sail).


Hans
 
One thing to bear in mind when deciding on prize money in a Traveller campaign is that the relative cost of ships to the number of crewmembers is about 60 to 100 times greater than the relative cost of ships to crew in the 21st Century. I did some calculations once. I don't have the figures for Age of Sail ships, but some captains and admirals did become independently wealthy from prize money. Imagine how rich people can get from the value of Traveller starships.

(IMTU governments pay a bounty of one percent of the value of captured ships and this is shared out like prize money was shared out in the Age of Sail).


Hans

That :CoW: around the cost of starships, especially for those wanting a small-ship TU. Either they cost too much for independent ownership at a reasonable activity pattern (trading, whatever), or they cost too little relative to the reasonably available resources of even a single, hi-pop hi-TL world, let alone multiworld polities containing multiple such worlds.
 
I had thought that the issuance of such letters was forbidden by treaty. However my wikifu says that the US was not a signatory to the Paris Declaration of 1856. which tried to outlaw the practice.

Might be wrong but didn't the US decline to be a signatory on the 1929 Geneva Convention treaty concerning the treatment of prisoners of war ?
 
Might be wrong but didn't the US decline to be a signatory on the 1929 Geneva Convention treaty concerning the treatment of prisoners of war ?

It signed the Convention in 1955 (although with some reservations).
 
One of the things to remember about the british prize system is that it was based on the arrangement queen Elizabeth I had with her privateers. Namely and a ship and it's stores were sold off or bought by the navy, half goes to the crown, half of the remainder goes to the captain, half of what's left from that is split by the officers and the rest is shared by the crew. The share that an able seaman would get was a fairly small percentage of the total value. Yet it was often several months pay for a few hours of effort. This system was adopted for 3 main reason.
!. The crown got lots o $
2. It was a HUGE motivator for the crews. "We can get paid how much ?!":eek:
3. Two of the three admirals commanding the defense against the spanish armada {drake and hawkings } were privateers. Drake's success as a privateer {to spain he was an out right pirate} was one of the reasons spain attacked in the 1st place. After the british victory drake and hawkins "suggestions" were taken pretty seriously.:rofl:
 
One of the things to remember about the british prize system is that it was based on the arrangement queen Elizabeth I had with her privateers. Namely and a ship and it's stores were sold off or bought by the navy, half goes to the crown, half of the remainder goes to the captain, half of what's left from that is split by the officers and the rest is shared by the crew. The share that an able seaman would get was a fairly small percentage of the total value. Yet it was often several months pay for a few hours of effort. This system was adopted for 3 main reason.
!. The crown got lots o $
2. It was a HUGE motivator for the crews. "We can get paid how much ?!":eek:
3. Two of the three admirals commanding the defense against the spanish armada {drake and hawkings } were privateers. Drake's success as a privateer {to spain he was an out right pirate} was one of the reasons spain attacked in the 1st place. After the british victory drake and hawkins "suggestions" were taken pretty seriously.:rofl:

If the prize taking ship was part of a higher structure (squadron, fleet, etc) the Ranking officer got a big slice before the ship's crew...
 
If the prize taking ship was part of a higher structure (squadron, fleet, etc) the Ranking officer got a big slice before the ship's crew...

Ah, but the "fine gentlemen" had to be induced to volunteer. The crews were "press ganged" and had to put up with literally anything that traditionally flows downhill.
 
If the prize taking ship was part of a higher structure (squadron, fleet, etc) the Ranking officer got a big slice before the ship's crew...

Do Admiral's get a share?

Regards

David

According to the article form Challenge 38 I cited before, yes, both have their share. Aside from the capturing ship's crew (Rank and file), also the Imperial family/governement, Sector and subsector Dukes and Fleet and Squadron commanders also have their shares...

I guess the main advantage of Privateers is that there's no Fleet nor squadron commanders to take their shares, so I guess most of them goes to the crew (again, Rank and file) and ship owner (so, probably the Captain would take shares as Captain and owner, if he/she owns the ship...).
 
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